On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote: ^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
Well that's the debate in itself. Everyone knows/agrees that having fighters enter the general MLG/eSports realm would be great economically, but the fear is that the socioeconomic barriers between the FGC and eSports are too great for them to exist as one. These barriers just happen to be shown through the existence of 9-5s in this example, because Holcan suggested that both types of competitive gamers are able to value gaming over holding a job.
Don't you understand, FGC and esports are one in the same, before last year RTS was more of a "fringe" esport in Western cultures than fighting games were. Every time I tell someone that I compete in video games, I am linked to the Diago scene. The common person isn't talking about Boxers SCV rush, nor do they take the time to understand the intricacies involved in a game like this, Diago parrying? Everyone can see and respect that, even if they don't completely understand the skill required to pull it off. The fighting scene adds a lot to the video as well, just be being overwhelming load while surrounding the players, adding pressure to the scenario, making Diago's win climax at a high point.
I have more to post, but I have to leave and comeback to the discussion for me to be able to travel word my opinion correctly, the essential argument is that sc2 players need a 9-5 just as much as the FGC, its just that the sc2 players take Day9's word of advice of "make esports happen" to heart, and devote themselves to the progression of the scene. If the fighting scene had an experienced, well spoken, ex player come out every week, or after every majour, and breakdown the meta game of the fighting scene, the growth would be exponential, like that of sc2. RTS has been a fringe esport in America/Western society until sc2 was released, and with the collective actions of the merged wc3 and sc2 scenes, as well as the focus from international gaming organizations allowed sc2 to become what it has.
Essentially, the FGC has been relevant (outside the deadzone) for 20 years, RTS has only been relevant outside Korea for about 16 months.
On December 14 2011 11:08 ICarrotU wrote: Hey UltraDavid, just wanted to let you know I'm a huge fan of James Chen and yourself. Your commentary makes viewing streams much much more enjoyable for me. I especially love the analytical information you both give, like frame data and match-ups.
One thing that I would like to note is that in the article you say that the FGC has come so far by itself, specifically streams and viewers numbers. I believe that the Starcraft community has played a vital role in streams across all genres, as it appears that streaming didn't really blow up until SC2 began to. I know for myself (and my brother, whom came up to and said hi to you at the NASL finals earlier this month) we probably wouldn't be playing or viewing fighting games at all if it weren't for SC2, but now we both own fightsticks, copies of MvC3, UMvC3 and AE and try to go to events in the SoCal area whenever I can.
Perhaps it's not a large portion of viewers or players, but that's still genuine growth of the community and an example of how we're all just gamers at heart, regardless of backgrounds.
Hey, that's great, I appreciate that. Hope you're enjoying Ultimate and 2012. Come say hi if you ever see me around.
On December 14 2011 10:22 UltraDavid wrote: Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
Subjectivity? Unlike you, some of us has been through the rise of BOTH starcraft and fighting games. You just know fighting games. History as shown that, RTS to be easier to understand & follow to the mainstream audience. Look at Korea and the numbers prove it. Korea has tried very hard with Tekken, and other fighting games. The result, it only attract a certain type of people.
For Starcraft players here and progaming, looking at other emerging scenes is like looking in the past. Been there, done that. Right now, you're resisting the inevitable.
Again, as I said in the (sigh...) very paragraph you quoted, I played StarCraft and Brood War. I also took WC3 seriously for a few months until I dropped it, helping form some of the early strats and contributing heavily to a couple of the major English speaking forums for it. I watched Brood War tournaments all the time. I still watch SC2! If you read the article, did it seem to you like I had no idea what I was talking about?
On December 14 2011 13:20 Redmark wrote: the fighting game community is mostly filled with players (at least until streams really took off) while the Starcraft community is mostly spectators.
This is very true and would have made a valuable addition to my article, thanks. It's been obvious in all my interactions with the SC community in person and online (including here), but I didn't think to put it in.
I'm a 27 y.o. gamer who has been playing since the age of 4. Starcraft is my favourite. Nothing is likely to displace it.
I do however also like FG's. There was a period back during my uni days that I was really into Tekken (Tag and 5) and Guilty Gear, I was going to local tournaments etc. It was great. Why'd I stop? The community was tiny. It was insular. It slowly bled to death. These days I watch streams for big FG events and fucking love it, but don't watch religiously. I don't play at all anymore.
You guys want to remain insular? That's your business. You're hurting nobody but yourselves by doing so.
Hello i'm new to this discussion, i'm 27 and i've played BW and FG for a looong time, have known & followed the bw/sc2 pro scene for more than 10 years and started playing in the arcade around 5yo like a madman, got NES @ 6, have always loved street fighter & fighting games in general, however I started following SSFIV "pro"scene and tournaments around a year ago, only internet as I'm from Spain.
I saw SSFIV in a game convention, felt it was much like the old SF with better graphics and bought xbox 360 that same week with ssfiv, after around 10 years with no console at home, thats the kind of guy i am, thats how much i love my games and my memories. 1 week later I ordered TE round2.
Before I state my opinion I feel I'll throw this information about myself so you can understand where this is coming from. I'd also like to tell that I really like your commentary Ultradavid, knowing the fundamentals about FG but being knew to SFIV your commentary was quite helpful at the start, specially because half of the cast was unknown to me, sites like srk (forums) were helpful later on.
Esports vs FGC
First of all, I see this happening one way or another, may take some time tho. I see Fighting games being played in big stages and I know it will be a success because the genre as many people before have explained, is really suited for easy understanding (basic layer it is), this also happened with BW, u see zeals dying to mines, u see 10 lings surrounding 3 zeals, u know whats going on, i agree however SF (will use it as example as it is more known) is EVEN easier to follow than BW, no discussion there. That and having a high skill-ceiling makes FG suited for the business, and thats what it is, a business.
Some of these businessman are approaching the whole thing from the wrong angle and thats why FGC is putting them on blast and I can totally relate there. I was yesterday watching Arturo Sanchez's stream and he was hearing a podcast where Spooky( FGC streamer) , VVV owner (or leader or w/e) and another guy were debating Esports vs FGC (which btw is a retarded thing to call this whoe discussion IMHO even though i do it too, i thought i'd clarify that) and well, while listening he was getting MAD, genuinely MAD. That big shot corporate guy kept talking about money, about how they could reward top players, about professionalism and quality streams, about how the reticency of FGC to join namely MLG and IPL was based on personal interests of Tournament Organizers and such, and man even I who believe FGC will be in this "eSports" bus sooner or later wanted to punch this guy in the face. He kept implying that FGC was stupid for not wanting their money. "THEY UNDERSTAND NOTHING" Art kept saying, and here I disagree with him, they do in some way.
They understand very well, but they only understand the business aspect of it, these kind of guys arent promoting ESPORTS at all, they think with their purse, the bigger the event the bigger the impact more money in their wallet. They don't give a shit about HYPE, or tradition or anything like that, they have money and want to make more, so they try to lure the product (ofc they see FGC as a product, and a winning one too) with something they find it can be appealing: CHECKS.
Here comes the leagues, wanting FGC to join, and Capcom not being so sure about it, wow we have a problem here, totally understandable one at that.
There is also the professionalism issue, there is not very much of that in FGC, AND I LOVE IT FOR THAT. I love the drama, the hype and the trashtalk, thats some real sport smotions right there. The most professional in FGC must be Daigo, I totally see him playing in MLG, stoic, cold, pure skill, comparing him to Flash would be ok to a point, not in terms of dominance tho, so we could compare him to I dont know, maybe Oov in his prime, with Xellos personality. I even could see Tokido and many other players joining the leagues and fitting well(no ragging demon ) BUT, theres always a but, I don't want the top players and the top commentators only, I also want Marn trolling everybody, and JuiceBox (FGC's own FirebatHero) and commentators like Yipes or Arturo, even ChrisHu and JaHa (o_O) FFS, in FGC stream trolling starts in the event and its SO FUN. They keep it FUN. In SC2/BW you rarely have top players doing the commentary, and even then they focus on the game and the mindgames behind, it's another kind of commentary, it's another kind of sport. If the businessmen want FGC to join, they have first to understand them and for that THEY HAVE TO LIVE the FGC, so they can understand it and take a new approach.
It's all about knowing it and respecting it, so you can merge it with your model if possible, which I think it always is btw.
To the people thinking FGC is dumb because they don't want their top players/commentators/streamers, etc being well paid I'll say: you're wrong!!!!! but FGC wants it in another terms, they can't be a perfect fit for MLG(i keep saying MLG but it's about all the major leagues) right now, so it HAS to wait or FGC will be alienated.
It's not all about the 8.95 guys.
I hope this can be understandable, even tho i'm sure it will be quite disorganized i hope i took my point across, keep in mind english is not my first language. Again, sorry for my bad english.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
For people that don't quite get it: CEO is a big tournament in the FGC. its been running for 2 years now, even getting international competition all the way from Japan.
How did CEO start?
An event called GAMME, run by an outside company with big goals was being set up. $5000 pot bonuses for each game, tons of international players, etc etc. People booked up for it to support this great event. Then about a month before it happened, some people got in contact with a few of the Japanese players who were going to be participating in it, and none of them knew what they were talking about. At the same time, the TO (tournament organizer) for the Smash tourney at the event pulled out. Suddenly, the guy in charge wasn't answering any messages or phone calls.
In the wake of the giant scam, Jebailey and some others (I dont know the smash players' names) set up CEO, Community Effort Orlando, in a matter of 2 weeks so that people who had booked flights and hotels in Orlando would still have a tournament to go to, even if all the big promises had been lies.
The fighting game community has damn good reasons to be hesitant towards esports organizations, especially when said organizations want to ignore over 15 years of community and do things their own way.
Just a quick glance at MLG: things that are unanimously hated by the community (extended series) stay in place despite massive negative feedback. Something like that just doesn't happen when the guys in charge are players themselves.
And to answer the above, yes, Tom Cannon is a saint in the fighting game community. He has tried to work with esports companies far past 2005, despite guys like in the video claiming the opposite. Remember 2010 Evo SF4 Grand Finals? Guest commentary and TV coverage by G4 and Adam Sessler. It was fucking horrible, and that mistake won't be repeated. But the community is trying, we're just not about to hand over the keys to MLG and be like Halo, which now doesn't know what to do as a community since it's not the big dog at MLG anymore.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
Fighting game matches just have something about them that's interesting to watch, especially with good commentary (explaining no, he's not turtling, he's just not blinding rushing into x y and z that can punish careless play because it's a unfavorable matchup at the moment).
Actually playing fighting games, for me, feels like having to learn an entire language just to get started, though it seems to have some transfer ability between games. Just not a mountain I've ever managed to climb. I also have terrible split second timing, so I'd suck anyway haha. Stupid technical limitations... oh well, the alternative is the Nintendo route so I think I'm content with sucking (and knowing I need to learn Go eventually - lack of finger dexterity isn't really a limiting factor there).
Now some games are more spectator friendly than others, but there's some definite entertainment value there.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote: It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
Just so you know, the community is not there to serve you, a passive "stream monster" with no interest of getting involved. That's quite some selfishness. And you call the FGC assholes?
The ESPORT model is very dangerous not because of the profit model. Its dangerous because it is not you who determines your own worth.
Yes, there is a better model: profitability with autonomy. FGC has autonomy. ESPORTS offers profit, but the FGC won't take it at the expense of autonomy. Korean Brood War is both profitable and autonomous; it is corporate backed, but its autonomy allows it to look for new sponsors instead of dying right away after losing sponsorship.
I have a hard time to believe Starcraft II will survive for long once Blizzard moves on something else.
Fighting games might come and go, but what the community plays is not up to Capcom or ArcSys or SNK or whatever.
On December 15 2011 11:35 VManOfMana wrote: Just so you know, the community is not there to serve you, a passive "stream monster" with no interest of getting involved. That's quite some selfishness. And you call the FGC assholes?
The ESPORT model is very dangerous not because of the profit model. Its dangerous because it is not you who determines your own worth.
Yes, there is a better model: profitability with autonomy. FGC has autonomy. ESPORTS offers profit, but the FGC won't take it at the expense of autonomy. Korean Brood War is both profitable and autonomous; it is corporate backed, but its autonomy allows it to look for new sponsors instead of dying right away after losing sponsorship.
I have a hard time to believe Starcraft II will survive for long once Blizzard moves on something else.
Fighting games might come and go, but what the community plays is not up to Capcom or ArcSys or SNK or whatever.
What's to get involved with? I pay my 8.95 (I actually did, no joke). And it's not up to me what I'm worth, I'm not experienced enough to determine that. I defer to my elders within eSports to determine that.
What has Blizzard done for SC2? They don't do anything outside of balance and their shitty Blizzcon tournament. And I absolutely hate Korean BW. So few tournaments, low low content for English, and nothing personal without being a coreaboo.
They don't have anything else to move on to, so that's cute. And if you lose sponsorship that's your own fault. Earn your keep and you won't die.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Every time I read an article on Fighting games and ESPORTS in general, I get the sense that fighting game folks are really onto something.
There's so much talk about blowing up e-sports and supporting e-sportings and growing e-sports that I feel like people don't realize that it won't be just a jumbo version of what we have now. If it gets big enough, e-sports (and even just SC2) might not look anything like it does now. You may not enjoy what it turns into. Appreciate what it is now.
The fighting game folk have something going, and it's theirs. They know that if they grow it too fast, it's going to be someone else's. Maybe, to go along with UltraDavid's article, fighting gamers sometimes don't have anything else to hold onto, so they'll be damned before they let some outsiders in, even well-meaning ones.
holy shit david's article everywhere. gonna actually try and watch majority of this besides spooky's bit post school finals
having followed fighting games since 2005 and competing since 2008, i gotta say i'm extremely happy with the way fighting games are today especially compared to the dark days. looking back where "giant" tournaments of 50-60 ppl max and matches were being commentated over srk irc/threads, to now where we got 200+ entrants in tournaments + major streams once/twice a month. Do i want to see more sponsorships/money grow more where more deserving players get paid? Yes. Do i want to see FG's blow up even more and get more limelight? Hell yes. but as of now, looking back to what it was before, i'm extremely content with the way the community/progress is atm
edit: kof 13 for mlg ^^
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
I would love to know what your definition of "deliberately slowing progress" is. And there is absolutely nothing contradictory about being happy with where you are while wanting more. Not at all.
You think the FGC has been an open book to eSports. I wasn't saying there was contradiction with being happy with where you are and wanting more, but being happy with the FGC and wanting more is contradictory.
I honestly have no idea what the bolded means, and the rest is you saying the exact same thing in very slightly different words while saying one is not contradictory and the other is. *headscratch* There is absolutely nothing remotely contradictory about anyone, in any situation, having contentment and ambition at once. Yes, people want to see the fighting game scene grow and more avenues for money arise. Yes, leagues can help facilitate that, but they aren't the only avenue to achieve that. And it doesn't help with the apprehension when you have people like Jerry from vVv talking to Spooky in the most condescending manner possible while completely misconstruing the message and intent of UltraDavid's article.
On December 15 2011 10:48 Hnnngg wrote:
On December 15 2011 09:47 VManOfMana wrote:
I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
Being happy with the community and wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are not completely opposite views.
What the FGC is doing is to set priorities straight. Making a profit is fine, but FGC doesn't want to do it at the expense of community.
The person Sp00ky was replying only offered paying people for their work. In short, he was about making a profit selling fighting games matches, a product the FGC can provide. There was nothing about strenghtening the community. Creating an spectator-only crowd or selling a product to spectators is not part of the FGC definition of a stronger community.
The impression I get from the ESPORT crowd is that when there is no strong sense of an active, offline, in person playing community, success and growth are measured with profitability. I think it's a very dangerous proposition, because the relevance and lifeline of your community is directly tied to how much money your game makes to Blizzard, MLG, etc.
My fascination with Korean Brood War did start from the fact it became a profitable activity, but they also have an important difference to ESPORTS: they are largely autonomous, just like the FGC community. It is no coincidence BW in Korea has survived Blizzard's plan for obsolescence.
-----
Warpticon: sup!
It's hardly dangerous. Make a profit and survive, that's how the world works.
And if FG's were added to the eSport crowd, they could/would make a profit or they wouldn't and go back to the way they were. It's not like if they stop being conservative assholes that they can't go back to being conservative assholes. But you know what? I want more FG content. I want more stuff to watch even though I haven't played a FG since I was a child going to arcades. But I can't get that because other people don't want it. Or they do but they won't say how to do it.
"Oh, I'd love more sponsorship/money/limelight, but not the way you're doing it even though it works!"
Then come up with something better right now so I can watch to my hearts content like I can with SC2/DotA2. But right now, I can watch people streaming (started in November 2011, way fucking late) and I watched CanadaCup. But since then, nothing. I don't even know what's happening until next Evo because I didn't start watching FG's until 2011.
"Make a profit and survive" is a massive oversimplification. if it was that simple, no one would ever lose money, struggle, or shut down business. And furthermore, profit doesn't come in a vacuum. I That's the point that people have been trying to make, and I don't understand why it's so hard for some to grasp it. For most of the FGC, it's s not a spectator activity: it's a participation activity. Things that may impede on the capability for or quality of competition have a risk of detriment. That doesn't mean that it WILL be a detriment, but to dismiss the fact that it COULD be is just silly.
As for the rest, I'm honestly puzzled how you can not know about anything after Canada Cup if you actually knew about Canada Cup. How did you find out about it, and what's keeping you from finding more? It's really easy to find fighting game content to watch if you want to. If you use Teevox, there's a pulldown menu for fighting. There's the Option Select stream every Monday, 8 on the Break every Tuesday. Cross Counter has their live talk show on fighting game topics every Tuesday. Starbase, Big Two, and Wednesday Night Fights are streaming every Wednesday. There's usually a Norcal stream on Thursdays, too. Avoiding The Puddle streams Tekken from Super Arcade every Friday. Top players like Juicebox, NYCFurby, Justin Wong, Floe, Filipino Champ, Flash Metroid, and others have personal streams that go up at random times. Fighting game streams are posted on the front page of Shoryuken, IPlayWinner, EventHubs, and other news sites. Fighting game streams are on the front page of Twitch.tv. Several fighting game streamers are listed on gamescast.tv. Cross Counter has a live fighting game news show every Tuesday. There has been one major tournament (NEC, the first major for Ultimate Marvel vs Capcom 3), a steady diet of weeklies, and several high profile exhibitions such as LA Barfights and the SRK Showmatches since Canada Cup. SoCal Regionals happens this weekend. Several players and commentators have been on Live On 3 and Slasher's show both previewing and reviewing the events since Canada Cup happened, almost every week. Streams get talked about in the SSF4, UMvC3, and general fighting game threads on this very forum. If you have a legitimate interest, you almost have to be trying not to find stuff to watch to miss it.
Sup, VMan.
So you didn't like what Jerry said because he was condescending? From what I've seen the FGC is really hardcore and doesn't like being carebears. Oh well.
And it's not an oversimplification. I'm not saying that making a profit was easy, but that's what you need to do. You make a profit and then you live. That's how it works.
I seriously don't see how sponsored players getting full-time jobs being players will negatively affect the quality.
And I heard about Canada Cup from LO3. That's where I get all my FG stuff (aside from Wong/Ricky/EG twitter). And I don't want to watch daily streams. Streaming is cute, but online play cannot compare to offline play. I want to see huge-ass LANs with tons of hype and big-ass crowds chanting names. I don't get that outside of EVO with FGC, wasn't there less than 1000 people at CanadaCup and DevEvent? It's so smalltime and I don't like it.
Okay, so apparently you care more about the size of the in-person crowd than the actual content. Okay. Forget I ever said anything. (also, when did anybody say anything about online play?)
probably about the player's personal streams. 90% of the time, its the player streaming themselves in an online session. but still, if the amount of ppl there the only way you gauge a tournament stream worth watching or not, then that's just retarded imo. anyway.....
On December 15 2011 05:06 Hnnngg wrote: I guess Tom is a God now, he can do no wrong and has no vested interest in keeping a monopoly on the FGC.
From the video anyway, but more to your paragraph is that you're extremely content with the progress is atm. It's pretty clear that the progress has been slackened directly by people not wanting to cooperate.
And then you want to see more sponsorships/money, more limelight, but then you're extremely happy with the way the FGC has been deliberately slowing progress? I don't understand that, I can understand the conservatism that the FGC wants to uphold (to some degree), but being extremely happy with the FGC and then wanting more sponsorships/money/limelight are completely opposite viewpoints.
dude. look back about 3 years ago about a few months before sf4 dropped on console. besides smash being shown at mlg, fighting games and the community was basically comatose. my first ever tournament i attended was NEC 9 (the NEC b4 sf4 came out), and i only went to spectate. the entire venue at best probably had 300 players ballpark. next year at nec10, sf4 had almost 300 people+ just for sf4 itself. this year's nec was crazy too. it's hard to not be happy with the way the FGC is in comparison to back then. i don't think being happy with what we have atm but wanting more is completely polar viewpoints.
EPT
) BUT, theres always a but, I don't want the top players and the top commentators only, I also want Marn trolling everybody, and JuiceBox (FGC's own FirebatHero) and commentators like Yipes or Arturo, even ChrisHu and JaHa (o_O) FFS, in FGC stream trolling starts in the event and its SO FUN. They keep it FUN. 
