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On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote:
What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
Give it 300 years and maybe Kanye's contributions will be very highly regarded.
On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote:
What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I'd say helping to grow a flourishing community when no fighting games were being released for almost 10 years is a very big contribution, Alex Valle for example has done a shit ton of work investing loads of his time and money building the scene in SoCal and I think it's totally unfair to think that a korean SC:BW player just playing the game has contributed to the scene other than shrewd marketing capitolizing on their talent.
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Great article, however i feel like there are some other reason why sc2 and other games are getting so big while fighting games aren't. I also know very little about fighting games so some of my arguments concerning them might not be that good.
First and this mostly for sc2 and League of legend (the lol's scene is less "pro" than sc2 but with that many viewers nobody can deny that they are big) they are nearly the only game of this type.
- For rts, not that many at good at high level and the best one are getting very (very very for bw) old which limitate drasticly the number of player. If you are into RTS and you are not actualy playing one at a decent level you will play sc2.
- For moba, there aren't that many and most of them are either old, bad or not "noob friendly" at all. LoL is very esay to start gameplay wise.
Therefore this two games have a huge player base which naturely tend to an active competitive scene (when the game permit it which is the case, very frequent balance patchs helps a lot too). On the other hand there are a lot of fighting games with the community spliting a lot between them making it harder to have a very large and active community.
Once you have a competitve scene to get big you obviously need money (for obvious reasons) and for that you need viewers. And for that i think the single most important thing is a game farly esay to understand/follow when you know nothing to very little of the game. I'm not saying understanding everything but enough.
- For sc2 : you see absolutly everything on the screen, mini-map + production tab always show you 95% of what you need to know to understand what is happening.
- League of legend : It's going to be the same argument you have everything on screen.
And for both this game when something huge is happened you see it clearly and understand it without having to know the game (when someone lose 30mutas to storm it's pretty esay to understand).
- Halo (never watched nor played FPS, been watching a little lately so i can talk about from this point of view), you also see pretty esaly what is happening and you understand the grand lines of what they are trying to do witthout knowing that much.
On the other hand beside the fact that i see absolutly everything happening in a fighting game i find it hader to follow what is happening and the games beeing as fast as they are the caster can't really explain it to me, making it a little less enjoyable.
And to finish it's much more esay to see the skill of a player in a RTS/FPS game that in a fighting game.
- RTS (sc2) : If you ever played any rts in your life you understand farely esay the kind of APM you are going to need just to make stuff and when you see them do it nearly perfectly while doing 2 or 3 other thing at the same time you see without a doubt how fast there hands.
- FPS : thing happen very fast and great accuracy in shot show a great skill.
Whereas in fighting games with little knowledge of the game skill doesn't show as much and it looks a little more than "smashing" and again game beeing that fast pace the casters don't really have time to point it out for people not knowing it  .
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On December 14 2011 08:21 UltraDavid wrote:
Lol pop? "Educated" listener, implying you're the educated one? Haha too good, that's goin on the ol Twitterland asap.
Anyway, stay ignorant buddy
Why do you do shit like this? What if day9 went into the SRK forums, found some ignorant person and posted their obscure opinion on twitter going "lolol look at this idiot?"
Not cool man, there is discussion and there there is running back to your twitter so a bunch of people who agree with you can say "yeah david you are the man you tell 'em whats up!"
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If UltraDavid reads this:
You don't give your commentators, especially yourself enough credit. As a non fighting game player, I rather watch a stream with you and/or James Chen than one without commentary or one that has guys just trying to get things "hype" (yelling a lot, making up words; the other style that's less analytical) because I don't understand the minor details that are going on. I know when guys are punching/kicking, I know when there's a flashy combo and a character might die, I understand the obvious things going on but I don't know the deeper strategy those players are trying to use or why people pick team XYZ in MvC or if XvY is a good or bad match up for X. When you guys fill that in, it helps me stay interested since I'm now informed. There's things to look for that I wouldn't have known unless I played or did research myself.
For people who already play the games or know these things it's not useful but to any outsiders.. which I think is something the FGC is going to want to grow, commentators are going to be very important. Say MvC gets picked up by MLG. The value of your commentary over having nothing is HUGE to any SC2, LoL, Halo, etc viewer who tunes in but isn't exactly sure on what's going on other than what looks like "guys mashing buttons".
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Katowice25012 Posts
I really enjoyed this article, it brings up a lot of interesting points and its fascinating to see how other people view their respective scenes. The conclusion was a little surprising to me as well, after talking for so long about why the FG scene is so reluctant to work with outside organizations it ends on hopeful note about being open to situations that let you express yourselves in the way your scene has always manifested. That startles me a bit, because that goal -- growing only in ways we are comfortable with -- is quite literally my full time job. It's something we battle constantly in Starcraft, and is the main topic of discussions we have in TL's office. I've always felt like the fighting community undervalues the amount of work we put into making that happen ourselves, perhaps we have just been luckier in recent tournaments being receptive to working with what we give them.
I also think the fighting game community's perspective on Blizzard's involvement is really unexpected. I seem to hear a lot from SF guys that Capcom blows so much they wish they got as much support as Blizzard gives, while I think you'll find around here our general view is that people wish Blizzard had no involvement and let us run everything ourselves (Blizz is the main obstacle in several things holding us back such as the map pool).
The sudden burst of articles on this over the last week has been really fun, looking forward to seeing how it develops.
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Really really well written article. Demographics and developer support were really nice points. Ironically, as heyoka said, Blizz support is also a crutch that some people wish would be lessened.
Fighting games definitely have a real chance at blowing up and gettin big. It was super easy for me to watch Evo despite never playing fighting games competitively. The only fighting game I ever owned was Soulcaliber and that game's horrible for competitiveness lol.
I think the biggest reason why Ack says that fighting games have less depth than SC is partially because of the surface simplicity of the genre. The fact that everything that's happening is on screen masks the fact that there's a lot going on off screen - mind games, controlling space, etc... For RTS, DotA, FPS, it's a given that there's stuff happening off screen so it seems deeper when it may not necessarily be. One of the biggest draws and most interesting aspect of fighting games to me is how really good players can almost seem to be able to read their opponents mind to do the right move or w/e in a split second.
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United States13896 Posts
I'm really glad someone stepped in and made an article like this that really got into the differences of each scene's gaming culture and why there is friction when people say "do what StarCraft did!" It really helped me understand the points that inkblot made in the previous articles.
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On December 14 2011 08:28 Ack1027 wrote:
What mozart contributed to music is more important than what kanye west contributed.
What top tier brood war progamers contributed to professional gaming is more important than what ' x top fighting game player ' contributed.
I didn't say broodwar was the only true esport or fighting games were easy.
Edit: But anyway this is going off topic. And it seems we've said what we need to. Neither of us are changing the other's mind so I'll just say you wrote a good article and I had minor gripes about it. If you gotta throw shit up on twitter to feel better about validating your own opinion or showing the world how stupid 1 guy on a forum that nobody cares about...go for it.
Do you even know what UltraDavid's point was in making that article? Your responses and people like you have been counter productive because you are talking from the standpoint "our game is better than yours."
UltraDavid's opening and closing statements was a shout out to us for being enthusiastic about the prospects of the FGC becoming a bigger entity like SC2 and LoL have become. You guys lack tact.
His opening and closing statements was also a reproach to the FGC to be true to what they are but don't become insular to the point that they are dismissive of any opportunity when we, who exist in the esports scene, try to offer them opportunities to level up their professionalism, hype machines and revenue streams.
Please stop being an obnoxious ambassador for esports and get over the cursory comparisons he was making to BW and the other games mentioned in his article.
You did make some very good points that BW's start was very much like the FGC; but your other assertions and assumptions since making that relevant point are negatively impacting this discussion.
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Well thanks Jim, I really appreciate that. Glad to hear the things we do to try get new people interested work out now and then.
On December 14 2011 09:08 Snorkle wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 08:21 UltraDavid wrote:
Lol pop? "Educated" listener, implying you're the educated one? Haha too good, that's goin on the ol Twitterland asap.
Anyway, stay ignorant buddy Why do you do shit like this? What if day9 went into the SRK forums, found some ignorant person and posted their obscure opinion on twitter going "lolol look at this idiot?" Not cool man, there is discussion and there there is running back to your twitter so a bunch of people who agree with you can say "yeah david you are the man you tell 'em whats up!"
Heh I think it'd be super awesome if he was in here getting involved. Like I said in the article, I'm just one of the guys in here, man, lemme rock. I'm also not really running back to my Twitter. I'm still here. I can't tweet about something I found hilarious?
On December 14 2011 09:06 Nenyim wrote: - For sc2 : you see absolutly everything on the screen, mini-map + production tab always show you 95% of what you need to know to understand what is happening. - League of legend : It's going to be the same argument you have everything on screen. And for both this game when something huge is happened you see it clearly and understand it without having to know the game (when someone lose 30mutas to storm it's pretty esay to understand). - Halo (never watched nor played FPS, been watching a little lately so i can talk about from this point of view), you also see pretty esaly what is happening and you understand the grand lines of what they are trying to do witthout knowing that much. On the other hand beside the fact that i see absolutly everything happening in a fighting game i find it hader to follow what is happening and the games beeing as fast as they are the caster can't really explain it to me, making it a little less enjoyable. And to finish it's much more esay to see the skill of a player in a RTS/FPS game that in a fighting game. - RTS (sc2) : If you ever played any rts in your life you understand farely esay the kind of APM you are going to need just to make stuff and when you see them do it nearly perfectly while doing 2 or 3 other thing at the same time you see without a doubt how fast there hands. - FPS : thing happen very fast and great accuracy in shot show a great skill. Whereas in fighting games with little knowledge of the game skill doesn't show as much and it looks a little more than "smashing" and again game beeing that fast pace the casters don't really have time to point it out for people not knowing it . Dang dude I totally disagree on all points.
For one thing, you can't see absolutely everything. I mean... you can't. You got the minimap down there but that doesn't tell enough of a story to count as showing everything. Production tabs are great but again, they don't show everything. Players regularly attack or defend in multiple places at once and the observer can only pick one to watch at a time. And why is the screen changing what it's showing so frequently, how can I keep track of all this? As for FPS, the games where you can go out of body and float around are easier to watch, but you still miss a gigantic chunk of the action. You can't see everyone's perspective simultaneously, which means you can't know everything that's going on. It's very common to just hear that a player other than the one being watched was killed or died, and that's too bad because you didn't get to see all the fun stuff that led up to it or how it was actually done. 100% of all action is on screen in fighting games, there's quite literally nothing else. The only even semi-exception is in superjump games like the Marvel vs Capcom series where for a brief split second the camera follows the jumping character and leaves the grounded one behind. But that's tiny, and in any case there's still a cursor showing where the grounded character is standing or moving. For every other game, you could not have more action on screen if you tried, because... well, there's just nothing else.
I also totally disagree that it's easier for basic viewers to understand what's going on in RTS. Take a person who's never played either genre, ask them to watch a stream for both genres, and see which one they understand fastest in a basic way. They'll have no idea what kind of APM or execution is required since they're not watching the players' hands, although seeing big combos would probably be more impressive than seeing units move around without seeing the players' perspective. They'll have no clue about tech trees or build orders or unit properties or losing which units is worse than losing others, etc. They might see one player's units swarm over and destroy the other's, and that's very understandable, but sometimes losing units isn't that big a deal anyway, plenty of games end when that isn't even happening, and all that can be confusing. They also won't know what the characters in fighting games do or what their moves and move properties are. But that big THIS IS HOW MUCH LIFE YOU GOT LEFT thing tells anyone, even a non-gamer, what the ultimate score is. So do the rounds-won indicators. Neither is hard to figure out; see a character get hit and lose stuff on that bar, realize it's how many times you can get hit. See a round end, see one of the rounds-won indicators, understand what they mean and how many it'll take to win. They'll see that big flashing thing at the bottom go away when the players do a big cinematic move and realize the two are connected. They also only need to invest 5-10 minutes of their time for most whole matches rather than up to an hour for RTS.
Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
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It reads as though Shoryuken.com (EVO) basically wants have to control over all aspect of the fighting game tournament scene. They are just one major players amongst many other tournaments (NEC, Warzone, Showdown, etc), yet they have the biggest and basically ONLY voice (via Shoryuken website).
I've been in the fighting scene since the beginning. Before their tournaments were even called Evolution. Back then it was called the B series. When Shoryuken says they are doing things "for the players", its a load of crap. The truth is, there are many games we do not even care for at all. Shoryuken has sold out long time ago once they gotten big.
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Hey UltraDavid, just wanted to let you know I'm a huge fan of James Chen and yourself. Your commentary makes viewing streams much much more enjoyable for me. I especially love the analytical information you both give, like frame data and match-ups.
One thing that I would like to note is that in the article you say that the FGC has come so far by itself, specifically streams and viewers numbers. I believe that the Starcraft community has played a vital role in streams across all genres, as it appears that streaming didn't really blow up until SC2 began to. I know for myself (and my brother, whom came up to and said hi to you at the NASL finals earlier this month) we probably wouldn't be playing or viewing fighting games at all if it weren't for SC2, but now we both own fightsticks, copies of MvC3, UMvC3 and AE and try to go to events in the SoCal area whenever I can.
Perhaps it's not a large portion of viewers or players, but that's still genuine growth of the community and an example of how we're all just gamers at heart, regardless of backgrounds.
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On December 14 2011 10:22 UltraDavid wrote:
Again, ton of respect for RTS including BW, SC2, etc. I played the games myself and I watch regularly. Obviously to an informed observer for both genres, it just comes down to which one you prefer. That's cool. Absolutely no problem with people who are informed about both preferring RTS. What can you say against subjectivity? Nothin. And I hear you on why you think RTS might be simpler to get at the basic level. But just imo, I think that fighting games are significantly easier to understand for that kind of viewer.
Subjectivity? Unlike you, some of us has been through the rise of BOTH starcraft and fighting games. You just know fighting games. History as shown that, RTS to be easier to understand & follow to the mainstream audience. Look at Korea and the numbers prove it. Korea has tried very hard with Tekken, and other fighting games. The result, it only attract a certain type of people.
For Starcraft players here and progaming, looking at other emerging scenes is like looking in the past. Been there, done that. Right now, you're resisting the inevitable.
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The author of this article is underselling the FGC, they are a key component to esports, or rather the movement of competitive video games. Fighting genre, although having communities stretching across many games, is much closer to games that it is trying to separate themselves from.
First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
Great article, would love to see more like this, especially if the fighting scene starts to formulate into something more concrete.
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On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote:
First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
This is a very valid point. Economically speaking, I think most people agree the FGC fits in to eSports nicely, sponsorships could work out very well and there are marketable players (Mike Ross, Combofiend and Yipes come to mind) while even those who aren't traditionally marketable have extremely large personalities that could probably be used to market something (Filipino Champ, Marn, etc.).
This, however
On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote:
The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
is much less valid. Look at the crowd at something like East Coast Throwdown, Season's Beatings, or whatever FGC tournament you want, really. Compare that crowd to something at an MLG. They're different crowds. Hell, if this isn't objective enough, look at the winners of some of these tournaments - in Marvel, you could have Filipino Champ. In Street fighter, maybe Puerto Rican Balrog. In Mortal Kombat, perhaps CrazyDominican. I don't think you can find someone from any of these nationalities at the top of many major SC2 or other eSports tournaments (not that I follow MOBA or FPS closely enough to know for sure). As for the socioeconomic "9 to 5" aspect, it does exist. Clockw0rk didn't just invent a team so iconic that Day[9] named his Diablo 3 character after it, he also taught at public school. Hell, even Mike Ross worked as an event photographer before Cross Counter blew up, he describes it in his documentary. Combofiend shows up to Wednesday Night Fights (essentially a local practice meetup for SoCal pros) in a shirt and tie not because he's a man of class (which he is), but because he's coming from work.
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United States2822 Posts
On December 14 2011 12:05 JaYCheY wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote:
First of all, what else to say then fighting and Halo/Cod share the same sponsorship market, aside from gaming pads all their equipment is similar. (tvs/monitors, xbox, gunnars, etc). Second the competitive aspect is not unlike that of FPS 1v1 DM games. The movement, reaction speed and understanding of opponents capabilities are all similar to the aspects of 1v1 DM. The parallels are very similar to other competitive video games, it seems the author of this article is holding other games at a arms length while smothering his own.
This is a very valid point. Economically speaking, I think most people agree the FGC fits in to eSports nicely, sponsorships could work out very well and there are marketable players (Mike Ross, Combofiend and Yipes come to mind) while even those who aren't traditionally marketable have extremely large personalities that could probably be used to market something (Filipino Champ, Marn, etc.). This, however Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 11:48 Holcan wrote:
The biggest argument is that we come from different cultures, sc being white/asian affluent, and fighting being a black/hispanic poverty stricken culture. Which is a false dichotomy which he extracted from his own personal experience. First of all, he is a white affluent law student, he considers his friends to be intelligent, whilst at the same time claiming that they have been forced into the fringe of society due to outside pressures. It seems silly that the members of the community are any less off then the members of a sc community, except he does so by equate race to social standards. It seems fickle that he claims that the fighting scene is some how more attractive to poor people, when in reality, we all have a high standard of living if competing in video games takes a higher priority than working a 9-5.
is much less valid. Look at the crowd at something like East Coast Throwdown, Season's Beatings, or whatever FGC tournament you want, really. Compare that crowd to something at an MLG. They're different crowds. Hell, if this isn't objective enough, look at the winners of some of these tournaments - in Marvel, you could have Filipino Champ. In Street fighter, maybe Puerto Rican Balrog. In Mortal Kombat, perhaps CrazyDominican. I don't think you can find someone from any of these nationalities at the top of many major SC2 or other eSports tournaments (not that I follow MOBA or FPS closely enough to know for sure). As for the socioeconomic "9 to 5" aspect, it does exist. Clockw0rk didn't just invent a team so iconic that Day[9] named his Diablo 3 character after it, he also taught at public school. Hell, even Mike Ross worked as an event photographer before Cross Counter blew up, he describes it in his documentary. Combofiend shows up to Wednesday Night Fights (essentially a local practice meetup for SoCal pros) in a shirt and tie not because he's a man of class (which he is), but because he's coming from work.
MajOr? Catz? They're both prominent Hispanic players in the SC2 community.
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^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
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Basically, hardcore PC gamers vs console gamers.
What's funny is that arcade players use to hate on console (and players) so much. Didn't consider them legit until they played in the arcade. Now arcade is dead. While it is true that most of the competition were found in the arcade, you were automatically dismissed if you prefer playing on a console (and/or pad).
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On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote:
^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy.
I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
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On December 14 2011 12:32 ICarrotU wrote:Show nested quote +On December 14 2011 12:25 JaYCheY wrote:
^^ That's two of a much smaller minority. I don't have the intent of compiling a comprehensive list of black or Hispanic elite fighting game players, but if I did it'd be rather lengthy. I don't understand what this brings to the table, if anything, this reinforces the idea of having FG's in larger leagues. Yes, many of the pros work in 9-5 jobs but would prefer not to, why not start to eliminate this by growing the scene even bigger?
Well that's the debate in itself. Everyone knows/agrees that having fighters enter the general MLG/eSports realm would be great economically, but the fear is that the socioeconomic barriers between the FGC and eSports are too great for them to exist as one. These barriers just happen to be shown through the existence of 9-5s in this example, because Holcan suggested that both types of competitive gamers are able to value gaming over holding a job.
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Honestly I think the most major difference is that the fighting game community is mostly filled with players (at least until streams really took off) while the Starcraft community is mostly spectators.
It's kind of obvious, really, when you look at for example TL/Reddit vs Shoryuken. I would say that most people here on TL are not truly competitors outside of laddering. The main connection to the competitions is watching tournaments and streams. Hell, I've never played a game of SC2.
I think the fighting game community doesn't need to do any convincing right now, to be honest. Just keep on keeping on. Things are going well right now, there's no need to hurry. At the beginning SC2 wasn't what it was now, not right away. The hostility from parts of the BW sector was immense. A lot of people were rooting against it, even. But I think by this point it's clear that SC2 has earned its place in the competitive gaming world. In five years I think the entire Starcraft community will see what you guys are all about.
edit: the way some fgc guys use "esports" is kind of bothering me. Whatever you might say about the word itself, fighting games are esports. Or competitive games. Or whatever you want to call it. The core concept is the same. You fight to get better, you get better to fight. To refer to the commercial structure (I guess?) of the SC2 scene as "esports" is like how mainstream media calls random guys from 4chan doing shit "anonymous".
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