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"Something Deeply Wrong with Chemistry"

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 Next All
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
July 22 2010 19:42 GMT
#1
...or something deeply wrong with academia as a whole. This is somewhat of a continued discussion of a previous thread I created with the article "Don't become a scientist"

http://www.chemistry-blog.com/2010/06/22/something-deeply-wrong-with-chemistry/

+ Show Spoiler +
[image loading]


I'm not trying to purposely trying to paint a dim picture of academia.

I'm really interested in grad school for the future (in Chemistry as well) but reading these types of articles definitely makes me second guess the decision for a PhD. Any TLers in grad school care to give their input as well? I know there are always other sides to the story so if you have them please post.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Chriamon
Profile Joined April 2010
United States886 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 19:46:57
July 22 2010 19:45 GMT
#2
Am I the only one who finds it funny the letter starts off with "Guido:"?

EDIT: I guess I should post more on topic as well.

Yea, its kind of sad, but the letter is right, the demand for those positions is extremely high, and if you can't work that schedule, don't go for that kind of job.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/profile/274906/1/Blaze/
semantics
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
10040 Posts
July 22 2010 19:46 GMT
#3
You're not tring to paint a dim picture of academia but this thread is
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125572
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 19:59:26
July 22 2010 19:54 GMT
#4
edit: wrong thread X|
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
July 22 2010 19:56 GMT
#5
He's an organic chemist- according to one of my professor's here "They eat their own young."

It's a pretty accurate picture of the way things operate for them.
kickinhead
Profile Joined December 2008
Switzerland2069 Posts
July 22 2010 19:57 GMT
#6
well, working on a science-project isn't just sth you do when you feel like it - it's hard work and if you don't want to do it, nobody forces you too, but if you want to work there, you should meet their expectations...
https://soundcloud.com/thesamplethief
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
July 22 2010 19:58 GMT
#7
Lol, it's sad, but what the letter says is the truth. TBH Most professors expect grad students to stay late or even spend the night in the lab if they have an experiment going.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Yizuo
Profile Joined December 2004
Germany1537 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 19:59:13
July 22 2010 19:58 GMT
#8
I study Chemistry in Germany (Göttingen) and have worked in a group were PhD students and Post Docs were working as well.
Most people there work about 50h a week I would guess, some come on weekends but not all. The pay for PhD students is pretty low (about 1000€/month after taxes and everything). I dont know about Post Docs.

The group I was working in was pretty okay though, strangely enough the amount you have to work depends on what field you are in: In organic chemstry you work the most (at least one day of the weekend is pretty much required), in physical chemistry it's like a normal job and the situation in inorganic chemistry is somewhere in between (see above).

IMO it's like the this: I you want to work for a professor with good reputation you have to work reaaaally alot. If you just want to get your PhD or get some money as a Post Doc it's not that bad.

You gotta love Chemistry tough, as this work can be unbelievebly frustrating .

Edit: The above letter seems to be a joke as stated in the blog post
Hier
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
2391 Posts
July 22 2010 19:58 GMT
#9
On July 23 2010 04:54 Badjas wrote:
Maybe I had some wrong turns (mostly saying 'no' to being famous and 'yes' to having two legs) but it didn't guess 'The letter A', although it does know of such an answer.


Lol
Wrong thread?

More on topic. Although dated, that is what private companies will expect of you, unfortunately. It is business, and business is all about competition. Working for either industry, government, or academia has its advantages and disadvantages covering the entire spectrum; they are very different. This is an example of a disadvantage of working for a private employer.
"But on a more serious note..." -everyone on this forum at some point.
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 20:01:07
July 22 2010 19:59 GMT
#10
Update 4: A transcribed letter from Robert Tjian

From now on, I or someone designated by me will take attendance at group meetings starting at 9:10 am. If you are not there, I will not sign your salary sheets. Also, if you haven’t noticed the number of people working on weekends and nights in the lab is the worst I’ve seen in my 17 years. The frequency of vacation, time taken off and other non-lab activities is bordering on the ridiculous. In case you forgot, the standard amount of time you are supposed to take is 2 weeks a year total, including Christmas. If there isn’t a substantial improvement in the next few months, I’ll have to think of some draconian measures to “motivate” you. I also want to say that the average lab citizenship and community spirit of keeping the lab in functioning order is at an all-time low. Few people seem to care about fixing broken equipment and making sure things in the lab run smoothly. If the lab were extremely productive and everyone was totally focused on their work, I might understand the slovenliness but productivity is abysmal and if we continue along this path we will surely reach mediocrity in no time.

Finally, those of you who are “lame ducks” because you have a job and are thinking of your own nibs, so long as you are here you are still full-fledged members of this lab, which means participating in all aspects of the lab (i.e. group meetings, Asilomar, postdoc seminars, etc.)

I realize that this memo won’t solve all the problems. so I am going to schedule a meeting with each one of you starting this Saturday and Sunday and continuing on weekends until I’ve had a chance to speak with everyone and to give you a formal evaluation. Sign up for an appointment time on the sheet outside my door.

This is the first time I’ve had to actually write a memo of this type and I hope
it’s the last time.

Robert Tjian





Edit:



On July 23 2010 04:58 Hier wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 04:54 Badjas wrote:
Maybe I had some wrong turns (mostly saying 'no' to being famous and 'yes' to having two legs) but it didn't guess 'The letter A', although it does know of such an answer.


Lol
Wrong thread?

More on topic. Although dated, that is what private companies will expect of you, unfortunately. It is business, and business is all about competition. Working for either industry, government, or academia has its advantages and disadvantages covering the entire spectrum; they are very different. This is an example of a disadvantage of working for a private employer.


Err, this is what most academia expects of you. The professor who wrote OP's letter is just trying to save some skin by claiming it was a joke. I do not doubt for one second that at the time the letter was written, it was a serious threat.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Arrian
Profile Blog Joined February 2008
United States889 Posts
July 22 2010 20:00 GMT
#11
It's much worse in the hard sciences than pretty much anywhere else as I understand it. Tough stuff.
Writersator arepo tenet opera rotas
LaughingTulkas
Profile Joined March 2008
United States1107 Posts
July 22 2010 20:01 GMT
#12
I just finished my PhD for Mechanical Engineering (focusing on biomedical applications of lubrication technology) but my prof was not like this at all. He was very hands off, and just judged by our results, he didn't even know if we were in lab or not, we just had to have deliverables when we meet with the people funding our projects. I got my PhD at Notre Dame, which while not in the very top tier of research schools, still has a high academic reputation. It mostly depends on your prof, and maybe on your field as well.
"I love noobies, they're so happy." -Chill
Hier
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
2391 Posts
July 22 2010 20:05 GMT
#13
On July 23 2010 04:59 orgolove wrote:

Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 04:58 Hier wrote:
On July 23 2010 04:54 Badjas wrote:
Maybe I had some wrong turns (mostly saying 'no' to being famous and 'yes' to having two legs) but it didn't guess 'The letter A', although it does know of such an answer.


Lol
Wrong thread?

More on topic. Although dated, that is what private companies will expect of you, unfortunately. It is business, and business is all about competition. Working for either industry, government, or academia has its advantages and disadvantages covering the entire spectrum; they are very different. This is an example of a disadvantage of working for a private employer.


Err, this is what most academia expects of you. The professor who wrote OP's letter is just trying to save some skin by claiming it was a joke. I do not doubt for one second that at the time the letter was written, it was a serious threat.


Eh, didn't pay enough attention. It was a research group. Different context, same situation.
"But on a more serious note..." -everyone on this forum at some point.
maleorderbride
Profile Joined November 2002
United States2916 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 20:10:15
July 22 2010 20:07 GMT
#14
My girlfriend does molecular biology (population genetics) at the top university in the US for her program. She works every single weekend. Her basic schedule is:

M-F: 9AM-7:30PM
Sat/Sun: 11AM-6PM

It is not uncommon that she stays later if she needs to finish something.

She is fairly unhappy about her schedule and constantly stressed out, but she doesn't really have a choice. She needs to publish and in order to do that she needs to do as much research as possible.

Meantime, I am in the English department. It's not really the same over there.

I guess this is, from an outsiders viewpoint, agreeing that science is a bad place to be if you want to have a family, friends, or close relationships. We have talked this exact issue many times--she says that she loves what she does. So, while it comes with this baggage, it is still what she loves to do and is most interested in. I suggest you feel the same way if you are planning on entering grad school for the sciences.
Some cause happiness wherever they go; others, whenever they go.
Generic Ninja
Profile Joined April 2010
United States31 Posts
July 22 2010 20:13 GMT
#15
Yes, grad students are expected to work very hard (I am a chemistry grad student), but this is how it's always been done (unfortunately). Working late nights and weekends is considered normal for grad school work.

Every professor will be different and this letter should not be considered the standard. Some professors are like this, but others will be less demanding or not care as long as you produce results.
bITt.mAN
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
Switzerland3700 Posts
July 22 2010 20:13 GMT
#16
How dare anyone judge the letter picture in the OP and even attempt to apply it to anything IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

From the website:
when the comments and rash judgments are made without knowledge of the context or the circumstances surrounding the individuals involved


Note the date, July 27. That means school is out in CalTech, thus we can deduce that this is a very intense and heavy-handed professor leading an elite summer-work schedule that students volunteered and signed up for. Have any of you aver been to CalTech in the summer? Let me assure you, its not empty.

There they actually know what diligence and working hard really means.
BW4LYF . . . . . . PM me, I LOVE PMs. . . . . . Long live "NaDa's Body" . . . . . . Fantasy | Bisu/Best | Jaedong . . . . .
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
July 22 2010 20:15 GMT
#17
On July 23 2010 05:13 bITt.mAN wrote:
How dare anyone judge the letter picture in the OP and even attempt to apply it to anything IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

From the website:
Show nested quote +
when the comments and rash judgments are made without knowledge of the context or the circumstances surrounding the individuals involved


Note the date, July 27. That means school is out in CalTech, thus we can deduce that this is a very intense and heavy-handed professor leading an elite summer-work schedule that students volunteered and signed up for. Have any of you aver been to CalTech in the summer? Let me assure you, its not empty.

There they actually know what diligence and working hard really means.


Grad students work well into the summer, there are no real summer breaks.

Also, whether the letter is sarcastic or not, still raises discussions from researchers who experience the literal circumstances outlined in the letter. Even if its a joke, it still outlines an apparently grim situation worth discussing.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
Masamune
Profile Joined January 2007
Canada3401 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 20:16:48
July 22 2010 20:15 GMT
#18
^ dude, that isn't addressed to a student who volunteered but a post-doc. And yes, post-doc's have it tough.

edit: to bITt.mAN
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
July 22 2010 20:18 GMT
#19
After you spend ~10 years of your life to get a doctorate, why would you *waste it* by staying in academia, earning <10bucks an hour, slaving away under some professor's dingy old lab and waiting forever for that assistant professorship that'll never come? After you get your degree, you really should get out and enter the industry/consulting or other private enterprises.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Jerubaal
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States7684 Posts
July 22 2010 20:20 GMT
#20
On July 23 2010 05:00 Arrian wrote:
It's much worse in the hard sciences than pretty much anywhere else as I understand it. Tough stuff.

Well the problem with the hard sciences is that the 70-80 hours a week you spend on your subject involves a lot of 'work'. 30+ hours in the lab a week is bound to take its toll on you.

My brother is a political science grad student and I know he puts in that amount of time into it, but much of his time is devoted to reading and writing which is admittedly less strenuous.
I'm not stupid, a marauder just shot my brain.
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