• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 12:37
CEST 18:37
KST 01:37
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 20258Power Rank - Esports World Cup 202577RSL Season 1 - Final Week9[ASL19] Finals Recap: Standing Tall15HomeStory Cup 27 - Info & Preview18
Community News
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced24BSL Team Wars - Bonyth, Dewalt, Hawk & Sziky teams10Weekly Cups (July 14-20): Final Check-up0Esports World Cup 2025 - Brackets Revealed19Weekly Cups (July 7-13): Classic continues to roll8
StarCraft 2
General
#1: Maru - Greatest Players of All Time Tournament Spotlight: FEL Cracow 2025 Power Rank - Esports World Cup 2025 I offer completely free coaching services What tournaments are world championships?
Tourneys
FEL Cracov 2025 (July 27) - $10,000 live event Esports World Cup 2025 $25,000 Streamerzone StarCraft Pro Series announced $5,000 WardiTV Summer Championship 2025 WardiTV Mondays
Strategy
How did i lose this ZvP, whats the proper response
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation #239 Bad Weather Mutation # 483 Kill Bot Wars Mutation # 482 Wheel of Misfortune Mutation # 481 Fear and Lava
Brood War
General
Google Play ASL (Season 20) Announced [Update] ShieldBattery: 2025 Redesign Dewalt's Show Matches in China BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ BW General Discussion
Tourneys
[Megathread] Daily Proleagues [BSL20] Non-Korean Championship 4x BSL + 4x China CSL Xiamen International Invitational [CSLPRO] It's CSLAN Season! - Last Chance
Strategy
Simple Questions, Simple Answers [G] Mineral Boosting Does 1 second matter in StarCraft?
Other Games
General Games
Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread Total Annihilation Server - TAForever [MMORPG] Tree of Savior (Successor of Ragnarok) Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Community Thread Vanilla Mini Mafia
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread Stop Killing Games - European Citizens Initiative Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread
Fan Clubs
INnoVation Fan Club SKT1 Classic Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
Anime Discussion Thread [\m/] Heavy Metal Thread Movie Discussion! [Manga] One Piece Korean Music Discussion
Sports
Formula 1 Discussion 2024 - 2025 Football Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Installation of Windows 10 suck at "just a moment" Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
TeamLiquid Team Shirt On Sale The Automated Ban List
Blogs
Ping To Win? Pings And Their…
TrAiDoS
momentary artworks from des…
tankgirl
from making sc maps to makin…
Husyelt
StarCraft improvement
iopq
Socialism Anyone?
GreenHorizons
Eight Anniversary as a TL…
Mizenhauer
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 791 users

Don't become a scientist

Forum Index > General Forum
Post a Reply
1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
shindigs
Profile Blog Joined May 2009
United States4795 Posts
May 15 2010 23:07 GMT
#1
Stumbled on this article written by a professor in physics warning students not to pursue a career in academia:

http://wuphys.wustl.edu/~katz/scientist.html

+ Show Spoiler +
Don't Become a Scientist!

Jonathan I. Katz

Professor of Physics

Washington University, St. Louis, Mo.

[my last name]@wuphys.wustl.edu

Are you thinking of becoming a scientist? Do you want to uncover the mysteries of nature, perform experiments or carry out calculations to learn how the world works? Forget it!

Science is fun and exciting. The thrill of discovery is unique. If you are smart, ambitious and hard working you should major in science as an undergraduate. But that is as far as you should take it. After graduation, you will have to deal with the real world. That means that you should not even consider going to graduate school in science. Do something else instead: medical school, law school, computers or engineering, or something else which appeals to you.

Why am I (a tenured professor of physics) trying to discourage you from following a career path which was successful for me? Because times have changed (I received my Ph.D. in 1973, and tenure in 1976). American science no longer offers a reasonable career path. If you go to graduate school in science it is in the expectation of spending your working life doing scientific research, using your ingenuity and curiosity to solve important and interesting problems. You will almost certainly be disappointed, probably when it is too late to choose another career.

American universities train roughly twice as many Ph.D.s as there are jobs for them. When something, or someone, is a glut on the market, the price drops. In the case of Ph.D. scientists, the reduction in price takes the form of many years spent in ``holding pattern'' postdoctoral jobs. Permanent jobs don't pay much less than they used to, but instead of obtaining a real job two years after the Ph.D. (as was typical 25 years ago) most young scientists spend five, ten, or more years as postdocs. They have no prospect of permanent employment and often must obtain a new postdoctoral position and move every two years. For many more details consult the Young Scientists' Network or read the account in the May, 2001 issue of the Washington Monthly.

As examples, consider two of the leading candidates for a recent Assistant Professorship in my department. One was 37, ten years out of graduate school (he didn't get the job). The leading candidate, whom everyone thinks is brilliant, was 35, seven years out of graduate school. Only then was he offered his first permanent job (that's not tenure, just the possibility of it six years later, and a step off the treadmill of looking for a new job every two years). The latest example is a 39 year old candidate for another Assistant Professorship; he has published 35 papers. In contrast, a doctor typically enters private practice at 29, a lawyer at 25 and makes partner at 31, and a computer scientist with a Ph.D. has a very good job at 27 (computer science and engineering are the few fields in which industrial demand makes it sensible to get a Ph.D.). Anyone with the intelligence, ambition and willingness to work hard to succeed in science can also succeed in any of these other professions.

Typical postdoctoral salaries begin at $27,000 annually in the biological sciences and about $35,000 in the physical sciences (graduate student stipends are less than half these figures). Can you support a family on that income? It suffices for a young couple in a small apartment, though I know of one physicist whose wife left him because she was tired of repeatedly moving with little prospect of settling down. When you are in your thirties you will need more: a house in a good school district and all the other necessities of ordinary middle class life. Science is a profession, not a religious vocation, and does not justify an oath of poverty or celibacy.

Of course, you don't go into science to get rich. So you choose not to go to medical or law school, even though a doctor or lawyer typically earns two to three times as much as a scientist (one lucky enough to have a good senior-level job). I made that choice too. I became a scientist in order to have the freedom to work on problems which interest me. But you probably won't get that freedom. As a postdoc you will work on someone else's ideas, and may be treated as a technician rather than as an independent collaborator. Eventually, you will probably be squeezed out of science entirely. You can get a fine job as a computer programmer, but why not do this at 22, rather than putting up with a decade of misery in the scientific job market first? The longer you spend in science the harder you will find it to leave, and the less attractive you will be to prospective employers in other fields.

Perhaps you are so talented that you can beat the postdoc trap; some university (there are hardly any industrial jobs in the physical sciences) will be so impressed with you that you will be hired into a tenure track position two years out of graduate school. Maybe. But the general cheapening of scientific labor means that even the most talented stay on the postdoctoral treadmill for a very long time; consider the job candidates described above. And many who appear to be very talented, with grades and recommendations to match, later find that the competition of research is more difficult, or at least different, and that they must struggle with the rest.

Suppose you do eventually obtain a permanent job, perhaps a tenured professorship. The struggle for a job is now replaced by a struggle for grant support, and again there is a glut of scientists. Now you spend your time writing proposals rather than doing research. Worse, because your proposals are judged by your competitors you cannot follow your curiosity, but must spend your effort and talents on anticipating and deflecting criticism rather than on solving the important scientific problems. They're not the same thing: you cannot put your past successes in a proposal, because they are finished work, and your new ideas, however original and clever, are still unproven. It is proverbial that original ideas are the kiss of death for a proposal; because they have not yet been proved to work (after all, that is what you are proposing to do) they can be, and will be, rated poorly. Having achieved the promised land, you find that it is not what you wanted after all.

What can be done? The first thing for any young person (which means anyone who does not have a permanent job in science) to do is to pursue another career. This will spare you the misery of disappointed expectations. Young Americans have generally woken up to the bad prospects and absence of a reasonable middle class career path in science and are deserting it. If you haven't yet, then join them. Leave graduate school to people from India and China, for whom the prospects at home are even worse. I have known more people whose lives have been ruined by getting a Ph.D. in physics than by drugs.

If you are in a position of leadership in science then you should try to persuade the funding agencies to train fewer Ph.D.s. The glut of scientists is entirely the consequence of funding policies (almost all graduate education is paid for by federal grants). The funding agencies are bemoaning the scarcity of young people interested in science when they themselves caused this scarcity by destroying science as a career. They could reverse this situation by matching the number trained to the demand, but they refuse to do so, or even to discuss the problem seriously (for many years the NSF propagated a dishonest prediction of a coming shortage of scientists, and most funding agencies still act as if this were true). The result is that the best young people, who should go into science, sensibly refuse to do so, and the graduate schools are filled with weak American students and with foreigners lured by the American student visa.


Your thoughts TL?

Sort of made me waver on pursuing a career in academia. I knew that pursuing a research career wouldn't be the most ideal job but I hope it's not as soul crushing and impractical as this article makes it out to be.
Photographer@shindags || twitch.tv/shindigs
AppleTart
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
United States1261 Posts
May 15 2010 23:14 GMT
#2
So one professor raging causes you to think this way, you realize this specific professor may have just hated his research or never got what he wanted?
always tired -_-
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
May 15 2010 23:17 GMT
#3
I'm surprised that he's even saying a PhD in engineering is any better. It's just as bad, fighting for grants every week, practically doing the same thing over and over again.


What he says is the truth. Being a postdoc is a terrible life to have >.<



If you want to get a PhD, at least get one in a field that will let you get out of academia afterwards.
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Kezzer
Profile Blog Joined December 2008
United States1268 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 23:19:22
May 15 2010 23:18 GMT
#4
Well that rules out everything except for law and med right?

*edit* 400 posts!
manbot
Profile Joined May 2010
United States2 Posts
May 15 2010 23:19 GMT
#5
I am currently reaching the end of my PhD in chemistry

The problem he is talking about seems to be focused on staying in acedamia, in which case he is completely accurate.

However, if you go into industry or work at a national lab, the job prospects are much better (at least in chemistry), and the payscale is at least double that of academic appointments. The trade-off is that you are much less likely to be able to do independent research, and can be stuck working on an uninteresting project.
InToTheWannaB
Profile Joined September 2002
United States4770 Posts
May 15 2010 23:19 GMT
#6
Well what the job market is like is something everyone should consider when pursuing there education. Its like anything else. If you truly love the idea of being a scientist. Then you should do it. If you decide money and finances are importent to you, don't .
When the spirit is not altogether slain, great loss teaches men and women to desire greatly, both for themselves and for others.
{CC}StealthBlue
Profile Blog Joined January 2003
United States41117 Posts
May 15 2010 23:34 GMT
#7
What about a PhD in English?
"Smokey, this is not 'Nam, this is bowling. There are rules."
littlechava
Profile Blog Joined March 2004
United States7218 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-05-15 23:35:02
May 15 2010 23:34 GMT
#8
On May 16 2010 08:34 {CC}StealthBlue wrote:
What about a PhD in English?

Another related article: http://chronicle.com/article/Graduate-School-in-the-Huma/44846/
The market for almost any discipline is ridiculously oversaturated with Ph.D's now, I'd imagine. Following your dreams is nice, but spending 10-15 more years than your peers in academia only to find yourself jumping at the most meager positions in academia somehow doesn't seem worth it.
Entusman #12
Ideas
Profile Blog Joined April 2008
United States8097 Posts
May 15 2010 23:34 GMT
#9
man thats depressing shit lol
Free Palestine
Integra
Profile Blog Joined January 2008
Sweden5626 Posts
May 15 2010 23:36 GMT
#10
I agree here. Academic work at universities is a really tough market since it's very saturated.
"Dark Pleasure" | | I survived the Locust war of May 3, 2014
orgolove
Profile Blog Joined April 2009
Vatican City State1650 Posts
May 15 2010 23:40 GMT
#11
If you get a PhD, do not aim for academia. Simple as that.


The truth is, there may be someone out there that makes a once in a decade discovery. It's probably not going to be you


It'll be best to go out of school after you get your doctorate and try to get an actual job.


On a related note, should I stop after masters degree, get a job, then come back and finish doctorate later?
초대 갓, 이영호 | First God, Lee Young Ho
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
May 15 2010 23:40 GMT
#12
On May 16 2010 08:19 InToTheWannaB wrote:
If you truly love the idea of being a scientist. Then you should do it. If you decide money and finances are importent to you, don't .

But that is exactly what the article is about. To set straight what the idea of being a scientist is, the career. Because it gets plenty of romantic imagery on television (like the csi shadow offices and so forth). Plus, money simply is important. Important enough to keep it in mind, not enough in the sense that one should always pursue riches.
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
CorsairHero
Profile Joined December 2008
Canada9491 Posts
May 15 2010 23:40 GMT
#13
also, because of the recession, it seems like a lot of undergrads went back for grad school due to lack of job positions
© Current year.
zer0das
Profile Blog Joined May 2007
United States8519 Posts
May 15 2010 23:42 GMT
#14
Post docs don't pay much... this is news?
lowbright
Profile Blog Joined March 2010
308 Posts
May 15 2010 23:47 GMT
#15
this is exactly why i am setting my sights on medical school instead of pursuing a ph.d. in chemistry
TeamLiquid CJ Entusman #49
Zzoram
Profile Joined February 2008
Canada7115 Posts
May 15 2010 23:48 GMT
#16
This is what I was hearing from all my professors just as I finished my MSc. There are too many people getting PhDs so they're becoming really hard to find work in. You can tell it's true when you see all the 30-40 year old Post Docs working on campus for probably $35,000/yr after doing 5-6 years more school than your average undergrad.
Ghostcom
Profile Joined March 2010
Denmark4782 Posts
May 15 2010 23:54 GMT
#17
On May 16 2010 08:40 orgolove wrote:
If you get a PhD, do not aim for academia. Simple as that.


The truth is, there may be someone out there that makes a once in a decade discovery. It's probably not going to be you


It'll be best to go out of school after you get your doctorate and try to get an actual job.


On a related note, should I stop after masters degree, get a job, then come back and finish doctorate later?


How would you get a doctorate before having worked a couple of years? If you are talking about a PhD, get the PhD before beginning to work. A doctorate requires years and years to get, and is the acknowledgment of well-performed research. Or well, nvm - I see you are from Italy, I believe the doctorate title is about equal to the PhD. isn't it? In that case, get the PhD/doctorate/whatever you call it first as the 3 years you spend counts as job-experience and it shows that you got ambition and dedication that you didn't just "fool around" for a couple of years before getting started.
DefMatrixUltra
Profile Blog Joined June 2009
Canada1992 Posts
May 16 2010 00:00 GMT
#18
I'm not even finished with my physics degree, and I've already started making a little money doing some mathematical consulting. I think he has the right idea warning people that going into a strictly academic "career" path is extremely dangerous.

But this shouldn't be interpreted as "don't get a science degree". A degree in science/engineering will always be useful, and you can always use it to find work for yourself. There is so much competition/wrangling/politics in the "academic" sector (writing journals, working with research groups, getting funded by universities etc.), but there are many opportunities in the "private" sector (working with a private company in their research/engineering department). In many cases, you can make a better living (more money/benefits) doing almost the same kind of thing - but this is very situational.

People expecting to go through grad school and going for professorships and stuff don't often know the numbers/odds in play against them. I think this guy is honestly just trying to help people by injecting some reality into their future plans.
Heyoka
Profile Blog Joined March 2008
Katowice25012 Posts
May 16 2010 00:07 GMT
#19
For what its worth the majority of my friends are scientists, and as a whole they are considerably happier than my friends who went directly into public industry. I would go so far as to say the 'least happy' of them is still seems to lead a much more enjoyable life than the 'most happy' who pursued something more pragmatic like programming. Obviously the career choice doesn't cause that directly but its not an irrelevant observation.

Another big thing this guy seems to miss (and I find this to be true for nearly every grad student I've ever met) is that people in academia have no idea what their skills are worth in the real world, or how to market them. So, they pursue these huge breakthroughs and chase shitty jobs at colleges/for researchers because they think that is the only way to achieve fame, money, and success. The most successful biotec companies in my area (and for whatever reason there are a lot of them near campus here) are run by dudes who did the scientist turned CEO path.
@RealHeyoka | ESL / DreamHack StarCraft Lead
thedeadhaji *
Profile Blog Joined January 2006
39489 Posts
May 16 2010 00:08 GMT
#20
His views are a bit biased but his facts are reliable imo...
1 2 3 4 5 11 12 13 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
14:00
Bracket Day 2 - Final
LiquipediaDiscussion
FEL
09:00
Cracow 2025
Reynor vs LamboLIVE!
Clem vs TBD
RotterdaM2502
ComeBackTV 2103
IndyStarCraft 607
WardiTV433
CranKy Ducklings217
Rex148
3DClanTV 114
LiquipediaDiscussion
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
RotterdaM 2502
IndyStarCraft 607
Rex 148
BRAT_OK 81
MindelVK 29
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 37921
EffOrt 1034
Barracks 1030
Larva 887
Nal_rA 638
BeSt 514
Shine 482
firebathero 334
Stork 305
Soulkey 166
[ Show more ]
Dewaltoss 137
Hyun 96
Movie 54
sorry 47
sSak 31
zelot 30
Free 26
yabsab 22
Terrorterran 17
IntoTheRainbow 6
Dota 2
Gorgc6947
qojqva3895
420jenkins446
Counter-Strike
fl0m3214
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor599
Liquid`Hasu340
Other Games
Beastyqt1492
Hui .322
Fuzer 185
KnowMe117
QueenE107
Organizations
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 18 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• HeavenSC 40
• StrangeGG 27
• Legendk 6
• iHatsuTV 1
• Kozan
• Migwel
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• sooper7s
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
StarCraft: Brood War
• Azhi_Dahaki19
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
• BSLYoutube
Dota 2
• WagamamaTV751
League of Legends
• Jankos1639
Counter-Strike
• Nemesis1664
Upcoming Events
BSL20 Non-Korean Champi…
1h 23m
Bonyth vs Zhanhun
Dewalt vs Mihu
Hawk vs Sziky
Sziky vs QiaoGege
Mihu vs Hawk
Zhanhun vs Dewalt
Fengzi vs Bonyth
Wardi Open
18h 23m
Sparkling Tuna Cup
1d 17h
WardiTV European League
1d 23h
Online Event
2 days
uThermal 2v2 Circuit
2 days
The PondCast
3 days
Replay Cast
4 days
Korean StarCraft League
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
5 days
[ Show More ]
Sparkling Tuna Cup
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSLPRO Last Chance 2025
Esports World Cup 2025
Murky Cup #2

Ongoing

Copa Latinoamericana 4
Jiahua Invitational
BSL 20 Non-Korean Championship
BSL 20 Team Wars
FEL Cracov 2025
CC Div. A S7
Underdog Cup #2
IEM Cologne 2025
FISSURE Playground #1
BLAST.tv Austin Major 2025
ESL Impact League Season 7
IEM Dallas 2025
PGL Astana 2025
Asian Champions League '25

Upcoming

ASL Season 20: Qualifier #1
ASL Season 20: Qualifier #2
ASL Season 20
CSLPRO Chat StarLAN 3
BSL Season 21
RSL Revival: Season 2
Maestros of the Game
SEL Season 2 Championship
WardiTV Summer 2025
uThermal 2v2 Main Event
HCC Europe
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.