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"Something Deeply Wrong with Chemistry" - Page 2

Forum Index > General Forum
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MangoTango
Profile Blog Joined June 2010
United States3670 Posts
July 22 2010 20:21 GMT
#21
Biology PhD student here in a Chemistry department. It's 9-10 hours on weekdays, ~6 hours on weekends. Yeah, students and post-docs are slave labor. If you're getting into academia, it would be best if you went in with both eyes open.
"One fish, two fish, red fish, BLUE TANK!" - Artosis
naonao
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
United States847 Posts
July 22 2010 20:25 GMT
#22
It's a competitive field out there. Why should a professor pick you to do research then not fire you when you don't meet his expectations when there are literally thousands of other candidates willing to put in the hours begging to be able to do the research? You can't expect to get a PHD without putting in the effort.
Kyuukyuu
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Canada6263 Posts
July 22 2010 20:28 GMT
#23
So uh, what's wrong with this letter?

I literally see nothing wrong with this letter.
T.O.P. *
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Hong Kong4685 Posts
July 22 2010 20:32 GMT
#24
I found this in the comments.

It is called U.S. academia. I too lived the evenings and weekends life of a graduate student, and from there moved to a tenure track appointment at a fine public university. As an assistant professor, guess what? I worked evenings and weekends to develop a research program and achieve promotion and tenure. That was followed by an offer to be a department chair where, you guessed it, I worked weekends and evenings. Following that I accepted a position as dean at an excellent public university, and you know the rest, I worked weekends and evenings (plus state and national holidays). The U.S. university system may be the only remaining sector where our country holds global primacy. Is there a high personal cost? Yes. Is it stresssful and competitive? Yes. Do some very talented people get lost in the shuffle? Yes. But that is our system, it produces the finest research in biological and physical sciences in the world and it isn’t going to change. You want to join a law firm and try for partnership…get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful small business person….get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful farmer…get used to weekends and evenings. It isn’t “slavery” if people know the expectations in advance and make an informed choice. Stuff the hyperbole about slavery and livestock in graduate science education. If you want a graduate program with tea and sympathy try art history, where you will be spared the prospect of a job working weekends and evenings. In fact, spared the prospect of any job at all.
Oracle comes in, Scvs go down, never a miscommunication.
Goobus
Profile Joined May 2010
Hong Kong587 Posts
July 22 2010 20:35 GMT
#25
This is nothing compared to investment bankers, who work 80-120hrs/week year long, and only get 2 days vacation time per year. The pay comes down to $10/hr. I'm in business school, and all my friends who are investment bankers hate their lives. Even in wealth management, where I currently work, the interns work 100hrs/week.

At least you get to do cool experiments with cool equipment instead of making pitch books and formatting powerpoint presentations.
Badjas
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Netherlands2038 Posts
July 22 2010 20:37 GMT
#26
What is wrong is that it is unethical to demand those working times. Labor laws prohibit such excessive demands, and surely have a ruling against firing people on ground of not complying with these demands.

If the professor really wants to get work done more quickly, the right way to go about it is to get more people. (Even though (s)he might not be in charge of the money side, but that's a separate issue.)

However, I am not sure at what level (government or specific branch ruling etc) this is regulated for the academic field. Ethics don't depend on written law though.
I <3 the internet, I <3 you
YejinYejin
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States1053 Posts
July 22 2010 20:40 GMT
#27
Holy crap, 100 hours/week!?!?!?

That's like 9 to 10 hours a day spent not working. So if you want to get a standard, healthy amount of sleep that is recommended by doctors, you literally do nothing but sleep, work, and eat?
안지호
exeexe
Profile Blog Joined January 2010
Denmark937 Posts
July 22 2010 20:46 GMT
#28
You should read this blog/my blog:

We work too much:
http://www.teamliquid.net/blogs/viewblog.php?id=133833

:D
And never forget, its always easier to throw a bomb downstairs than up. - George Orwell
andrewlt
Profile Joined August 2009
United States7702 Posts
July 22 2010 20:51 GMT
#29
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?

I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15743 Posts
July 22 2010 20:53 GMT
#30
On July 23 2010 05:35 Goobus wrote:
This is nothing compared to investment bankers, who work 80-120hrs/week year long, and only get 2 days vacation time per year. The pay comes down to $10/hr. I'm in business school, and all my friends who are investment bankers hate their lives. Even in wealth management, where I currently work, the interns work 100hrs/week.

At least you get to do cool experiments with cool equipment instead of making pitch books and formatting powerpoint presentations.


That's just silly, good lord. Why do people even do this? You don't even live a life, it doesn't seem worth it...
Servolisk
Profile Blog Joined February 2003
United States5241 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 21:25:35
July 22 2010 21:17 GMT
#31
Lol, it's sad, but what the letter says is the truth. TBH Most professors expect grad students to stay late or even spend the night in the lab if they have an experiment going.


Uh, that part surely is to be expected, though I can't tell what circumstances you mean as everyone has multiple experiments going, normally speaking.

On July 23 2010 05:32 T.O.P. wrote:
I found this in the comments.

Show nested quote +
It is called U.S. academia. I too lived the evenings and weekends life of a graduate student, and from there moved to a tenure track appointment at a fine public university. As an assistant professor, guess what? I worked evenings and weekends to develop a research program and achieve promotion and tenure. That was followed by an offer to be a department chair where, you guessed it, I worked weekends and evenings. Following that I accepted a position as dean at an excellent public university, and you know the rest, I worked weekends and evenings (plus state and national holidays). The U.S. university system may be the only remaining sector where our country holds global primacy. Is there a high personal cost? Yes. Is it stresssful and competitive? Yes. Do some very talented people get lost in the shuffle? Yes. But that is our system, it produces the finest research in biological and physical sciences in the world and it isn’t going to change. You want to join a law firm and try for partnership…get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful small business person….get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful farmer…get used to weekends and evenings. It isn’t “slavery” if people know the expectations in advance and make an informed choice. Stuff the hyperbole about slavery and livestock in graduate science education. If you want a graduate program with tea and sympathy try art history, where you will be spared the prospect of a job working weekends and evenings. In fact, spared the prospect of any job at all.


That was a good comment. I find most labs (in biology) do not require evenings and weekends but anyone with ambition needs to do it to be competitive. Personally I've worked 7 days a week for the last 2 years in academic research and although sometimes it is stressful it is enjoyable. Even in the long hours a lot of it is fun, the challenges are fun, being competitive is fun... there is a lot of flexibility too, and interesting activities unique to the field (for example- just went to Kyoto this summer for a super fun trip/conference which was simultaneously an amazing trip + productive in learning and meeting people ^_^). It is hard to say if this letter is justified or not. It would really suck to be stuck in a lab doing boring research and demanding a lot of numbing labor...It could be justified but there are so many people who like to exaggerate.

edit: http://www.carreira.ethz.ch/people/emc <-- Letter writer, seems he does good research and it is justified (most likely), but hurray for whining about academia/work :O
wtf was that signature
Osmoses
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Sweden5302 Posts
July 22 2010 21:39 GMT
#32
If the applicant is informed up front that these are the hours that are expected of him/her then I see no problem with this. Scientific research is no 9-5, what you lose in free time you gain in actually wanting to go to work. If you want this kind of work of course I for one do not.
Excuse me hun, but what is your name? Vivian? I woke up next to you naked and, uh, did we, um?
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
July 22 2010 21:43 GMT
#33
Computer science grad student here. The thing is, if you don't want to work crazy hours in academia, you probably aren't right for it, or your project isn't right. Academia is full of passionate and intelligent people, which makes it one of the most competitive arenas I know of. So if someone isn't working their ass off, eyebrows will be raised. I was offered a very high paying job right out of my undergraduate at a prestigious company, but declined it in favor of pursuing a PhD so my work gets me out of the bed in the morning.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-22 21:44:14
July 22 2010 21:43 GMT
#34
On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?

I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America.



I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank.
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
Jayve
Profile Joined February 2009
155 Posts
July 22 2010 21:44 GMT
#35
Science really depends on where you read/study it.

Would I get warned/banned for making a Breaking Bad pun? :s
Easy772
Profile Joined May 2010
374 Posts
July 22 2010 21:45 GMT
#36
This is terrible.. No wonder no one wants to be a scientist any more.
"The best way to improve is to play one matchup on one map doing one strategy.. if you are good at one strategy you are a good player, if you are okay at many strategies you are an okay player at best" -Day[9] 181
AcrossFiveJulys
Profile Blog Joined September 2005
United States3612 Posts
July 22 2010 21:49 GMT
#37
On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?

I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America.



I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank.


That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up.
Adeny
Profile Blog Joined January 2009
Norway1233 Posts
July 22 2010 22:06 GMT
#38
On July 23 2010 05:35 Goobus wrote:
This is nothing compared to investment bankers, who work 80-120hrs/week year long, and only get 2 days vacation time per year. The pay comes down to $10/hr. I'm in business school, and all my friends who are investment bankers hate their lives. Even in wealth management, where I currently work, the interns work 100hrs/week.

At least you get to do cool experiments with cool equipment instead of making pitch books and formatting powerpoint presentations.


I don't believe you. 120 hrs/week leaves 6.8 hours a day. With travel to and from work, dinner etc. That leaves what, 5 hours to sleep a day? You've gotta be running that fancy sleep-schedule trick that lets you sleep 2 hours a day to keep up.
Saracen
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States5139 Posts
July 22 2010 22:08 GMT
#39
It's harsh, but not surprising at all. Plus, the letter was written in '96. But yeah, OChem profs at Caltech have a reputation of being more anal about getting stuff done, at least in my experience (especially compared to CS profs lol). But yeah, the professor has a point. Carriera's lab is huge (dunno how it was doing back then, but right now, it's really bustling), and if you're not able to contribute, then of course you're going to be replaced.
Sadist
Profile Blog Joined October 2002
United States7328 Posts
July 22 2010 22:23 GMT
#40
On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:
On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?

I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America.



I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank.


That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up.



If you dont care about money quit bitching.

I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school)
How do you go from where you are to where you want to be? I think you have to have an enthusiasm for life. You have to have a dream, a goal and you have to be willing to work for it. Jim Valvano
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