|
While the attitude of the supervisors are generally better, this is basically how it is in grad school - especially in engineering and sciences. It's not so much that anyone stamps their foot and says "YOU MUST WORK" - it's just that if you're not the kind of person who does that all by yourself you will either not get in in the first place or you won't survive to the end.
Seriously, academia sucks balls. Like some others here, I also spent ten years in various universities. I quit after my masters and swore I would never ever return. Being a complete idiot, I ended up in Europe on what I intended to be a working holiday and, half way through my "vacation", I ended up back working in a damned university research lab again.
It can be fun, to be sure, and if you're absolutely focused on the task then I suppose it's the place for you, but seriously - I lost so many years of my life in that grind. I've just this year moved back and started a new job - a real job in the private sector - and it's fucking awesome. I still get to do my thing but now in a small-industry scale, which is cool, and best of all - I have a damned life again! Weekends off! Evenings free! I feel like I got out of prison.
Watching supervisors and others toil away at 11pm at night, every night, in their cloistered office...it was like "shit... my future - > DO NOT WANT".
|
On July 23 2010 07:23 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?
I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America. I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank. That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up. If you dont care about money quit bitching. I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school)
His point was that they could easily make a very livable sum of money doing something OTHER than academia, which I think holds true for almost anyone with a PhD. They recognize they are taking a huge hit to do academia instead, but I think it's reasonable that these incredibly smart and hardworking people don't spend their lives toiling for such a meager salary.
Sadly although that would be fair, not many things in life are. Until the population as a whole begins to suddenly treat the pursuit of knowledge as worthwhile goal, things will likely remain the way they are.
|
On July 23 2010 06:45 Easy772 wrote:
This is terrible.. No wonder no one wants to be a scientist work any more.
Strange attitude to be found on TL where most support attempts to become a progamer, another career where if you are going to consider it you weren't worried about the hours before hand/were willing to spend however long necessary to do.
And this is the guy who wrote the letter and is probably the best relevant example of why someone would want to be a scientist, look at his resume. And there are a lot of rewards to the track that are overlooked when simply bitching about long hours.
|
On July 23 2010 04:45 Chriamon wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it funny the letter starts off with "Guido:"?
EDIT: I guess I should post more on topic as well.
Yea, its kind of sad, but the letter is right, the demand for those positions is extremely high, and if you can't work that schedule, don't go for that kind of job.
Nah man it cracked me up too.
Maybe this guy should consider opening a chemistry lab in his basement. The pay is better, and you get to set your own hours  .
|
On July 23 2010 07:32 sith wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 07:23 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?
I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America. I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank. That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up. If you dont care about money quit bitching. I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school) His point was that they could easily make a very livable sum of money doing something OTHER than academia, which I think holds true for almost anyone with a PhD. They recognize they are taking a huge hit to do academia instead, but I think it's reasonable that these incredibly smart and hardworking people don't spend their lives toiling for such a meager salary. Sadly although that would be fair, not many things in life are. Until the population as a whole begins to suddenly treat the pursuit of knowledge as worthwhile goal, things will likely remain the way they are.
Although it is beside the point, people who succeed in this track to the point of becoming a tenured professor get large salaries (depending on school it could be like 200k/8 months and then 100k you pay yourself over the summer from your own grant). There are a lot of other top notch benefits too.
It seems half of tenured professors become lazy, quickly, and work less than average people with their job security. It is the most secure job in the world.
Then there are a lot of other benefits. Professors in science frequently have numerous patents or industry partnerships that arise from their research and many profit extensively.
|
On July 23 2010 07:41 Lexpar wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 04:45 Chriamon wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it funny the letter starts off with "Guido:"?
EDIT: I guess I should post more on topic as well.
Yea, its kind of sad, but the letter is right, the demand for those positions is extremely high, and if you can't work that schedule, don't go for that kind of job. Nah man it cracked me up too. Maybe this guy should consider opening a chemistry lab in his basement. The pay is better, and you get to set your own hours .
And the science (kind of the point) is useless... 
Most people do set their own hours in the lab, it is just that to do anything progressive you kind of need the long hours.
|
You can have all the money in the world but if you have to work 80 hour weeks well... when do you spend it?
|
On July 23 2010 07:44 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 07:32 sith wrote:On July 23 2010 07:23 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?
I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America. I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank. That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up. If you dont care about money quit bitching. I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school) His point was that they could easily make a very livable sum of money doing something OTHER than academia, which I think holds true for almost anyone with a PhD. They recognize they are taking a huge hit to do academia instead, but I think it's reasonable that these incredibly smart and hardworking people don't spend their lives toiling for such a meager salary. Sadly although that would be fair, not many things in life are. Until the population as a whole begins to suddenly treat the pursuit of knowledge as worthwhile goal, things will likely remain the way they are. Although it is beside the point people who succeed in the track to the point of becoming a tenured professor get large salaries (depending on school it could be like 200k/8 months and then 100k you pay yourself over the summer from your own grant). There are a lot of other top notch benefits too. It seems half of tenured professors become lazy, quickly, and work less than average people with their job security. It is the most secure job in the world. Then there are a lot of other benefits. Professors in science frequently have numerous patents or industry partnerships that arise from their research and many profit extensively.
And you get to travel all over the world to conferences you get papers into, paid for by your funding source :D one of the best benefits imo.
(I'm submitting a paper to a Taipei conference this coming October... hope it gets in!)
|
I'm convinced that I'm the worst graduate student ever. I put in about 10-20 hours a week of research tops.
|
OH IM SORRY GRAD STUDENTS I CANT HEAR YOU OVER MY 80+ HOUR INTERNSHIP YEAR! IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS GET TO SLEEP OCCASIONALLY?!?!
+ Show Spoiler + nah just kidding we all work hard :p
|
I remember heading to lab late one night to run an NMR sample, found one of my teaching assistants (a grad student) also running a sample with his girlfriend impatiently waiting. It was like 2am.
Chemistry is just a field that involves a lot of your time - reactions take days to plan and yet can take an entire day to run. When you consider how many reaction stages are involved in some difficult processes, plus time to purify and run tests, it may take weeks to translate a good idea into preliminary results.
The PostDoc in the letter is probably just behind schedule or not getting results.
|
On July 23 2010 07:46 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 07:44 Servolisk wrote:On July 23 2010 07:32 sith wrote:On July 23 2010 07:23 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?
I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America. I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank. That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up. If you dont care about money quit bitching. I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school) His point was that they could easily make a very livable sum of money doing something OTHER than academia, which I think holds true for almost anyone with a PhD. They recognize they are taking a huge hit to do academia instead, but I think it's reasonable that these incredibly smart and hardworking people don't spend their lives toiling for such a meager salary. Sadly although that would be fair, not many things in life are. Until the population as a whole begins to suddenly treat the pursuit of knowledge as worthwhile goal, things will likely remain the way they are. Although it is beside the point people who succeed in the track to the point of becoming a tenured professor get large salaries (depending on school it could be like 200k/8 months and then 100k you pay yourself over the summer from your own grant). There are a lot of other top notch benefits too. It seems half of tenured professors become lazy, quickly, and work less than average people with their job security. It is the most secure job in the world. Then there are a lot of other benefits. Professors in science frequently have numerous patents or industry partnerships that arise from their research and many profit extensively. And you get to travel all over the world to conferences you get papers into, paid for by your funding source :D one of the best benefits imo. (I'm submitting a paper to a Taipei conference this coming October... hope it gets in!)
Yes!! Although occasionally luck is poor and you end up in Maine (me the previous summer T__________________________________________________________T ... it was still a good conference tho =p). Good luck!
Random pics from after a banquet at the Kyoto conference I went to recently!
+ Show Spoiler +
Ah! Poor miserable scientists- how dumb of them all to choose to be enslaved, the misery is apparent on their faces!!
|
On July 23 2010 07:53 Archerofaiur wrote:OH IM SORRY GRAD STUDENTS I CANT HEAR YOU OVER MY 80+ HOUR INTERNSHIP YEAR! IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS GET TO SLEEP OCCASIONALLY?!?! + Show Spoiler + nah just kidding we all work hard :p
Most PhD students don't complain about the workload though, because they knew exactly what they were getting into before they began. Honestly I'm happier as a grad student with an 80+ hour work week when things are happening quickly than a 40 hour work week when things are progressing slowly.
|
I laughed so hard at this.
Anyways, it's not as bad as you think. Depending on what kind of chemistry you do, you may have to wait many, many hours in the lab pretty much without doing anything at all.
|
On July 23 2010 08:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 07:53 Archerofaiur wrote:OH IM SORRY GRAD STUDENTS I CANT HEAR YOU OVER MY 80+ HOUR INTERNSHIP YEAR! IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS GET TO SLEEP OCCASIONALLY?!?! + Show Spoiler + nah just kidding we all work hard :p
Most PhD students don't complain about the workload though, because they knew exactly what they were getting into before they began. Honestly I'm happier as a grad student with an 80+ hour work week when things are happening quickly than a 40 hour work week when things are progressing slowly.
Yeah the long hours can be well spent, relatively. :o I never really watch the clock waiting for my working day to end as many corporate employees do, and I definitely would if I did not find my work interesting...
|
On July 23 2010 08:07 Servolisk wrote:Show nested quote +On July 23 2010 08:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:On July 23 2010 07:53 Archerofaiur wrote:OH IM SORRY GRAD STUDENTS I CANT HEAR YOU OVER MY 80+ HOUR INTERNSHIP YEAR! IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS GET TO SLEEP OCCASIONALLY?!?! + Show Spoiler + nah just kidding we all work hard :p
Most PhD students don't complain about the workload though, because they knew exactly what they were getting into before they began. Honestly I'm happier as a grad student with an 80+ hour work week when things are happening quickly than a 40 hour work week when things are progressing slowly. Yeah the long hours can be well spent, relatively. :o I never really watch the clock waiting for my working day to end as many corporate employees do, and I definitely would if I did not find my work interesting...
Yeah and my schedule is really flexible. Like, sometimes I come into the lab on a random weekday, run an experiment, realize it's going to take many hours and that I don't feel like doing anything substantial that day, and just go home and take the day off. Other days I work from 10am to 8am the next day, I just do w/e the hell I want and it's awesome.
|
10387 Posts
So.. people have a problem working hard or have never really worked hard before, so instead of doing the hard work that all generations past have been for post-docs, people bitch about how its "slavery" because they are too damn lazy.
-_____________________-
|
On July 23 2010 05:01 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I just finished my PhD for Mechanical Engineering (focusing on biomedical applications of lubrication technology) but my prof was not like this at all. He was very hands off, and just judged by our results, he didn't even know if we were in lab or not, we just had to have deliverables when we meet with the people funding our projects. I got my PhD at Notre Dame, which while not in the very top tier of research schools, still has a high academic reputation. It mostly depends on your prof, and maybe on your field as well.
Forgive me for my in-sensitiveness, but somehow i just lol'ed really hard when i read that.
But yeah, this is really bad stuff. There needs to be an academic version of the 40h workweek law or something.
|
On July 23 2010 05:28 Kyuukyuu wrote:
So uh, what's wrong with this letter?
I literally see nothing wrong with this letter.
Same here. If there are people willing to work the busy schedule that the head of the lab deems necessary, why should he keep this Guido (lol) guy?
|
Scientists have one of the worst jobs. Low pay, high stress and high hours.
Seriously, don't, unless you're trying to help me by making the better jobs less competitive.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT![[image loading]](http://www.scl.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~mmsicr/mmstojp/se2010603_files/Media/P1000780/P1000780.jpg?disposition=download)
![[image loading]](http://www.scl.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~mmsicr/mmstojp/se2010603_files/Media/IMG_0980/IMG_0980.jpg?disposition=download)
