"Something Deeply Wrong with Chemistry"

On July 23 2010 04:54 Badjas wrote:
Maybe I had some wrong turns (mostly saying 'no' to being famous and 'yes' to having two legs) but it didn't guess 'The letter A', although it does know of such an answer.

Update 4: A transcribed letter from Robert Tjian

From now on, I or someone designated by me will take attendance at group meetings starting at 9:10 am. If you are not there, I will not sign your salary sheets. Also, if you haven’t noticed the number of people working on weekends and nights in the lab is the worst I’ve seen in my 17 years. The frequency of vacation, time taken off and other non-lab activities is bordering on the ridiculous. In case you forgot, the standard amount of time you are supposed to take is 2 weeks a year total, including Christmas. If there isn’t a substantial improvement in the next few months, I’ll have to think of some draconian measures to “motivate” you. I also want to say that the average lab citizenship and community spirit of keeping the lab in functioning order is at an all-time low. Few people seem to care about fixing broken equipment and making sure things in the lab run smoothly. If the lab were extremely productive and everyone was totally focused on their work, I might understand the slovenliness but productivity is abysmal and if we continue along this path we will surely reach mediocrity in no time.

Finally, those of you who are “lame ducks” because you have a job and are thinking of your own nibs, so long as you are here you are still full-fledged members of this lab, which means participating in all aspects of the lab (i.e. group meetings, Asilomar, postdoc seminars, etc.)

I realize that this memo won’t solve all the problems. so I am going to schedule a meeting with each one of you starting this Saturday and Sunday and continuing on weekends until I’ve had a chance to speak with everyone and to give you a formal evaluation. Sign up for an appointment time on the sheet outside my door.

This is the first time I’ve had to actually write a memo of this type and I hope
it’s the last time.

Robert Tjian

On July 23 2010 04:58 Hier wrote:


Lol
Wrong thread?

More on topic. Although dated, that is what private companies will expect of you, unfortunately. It is business, and business is all about competition. Working for either industry, government, or academia has its advantages and disadvantages covering the entire spectrum; they are very different. This is an example of a disadvantage of working for a private employer.

On July 23 2010 04:59 orgolove wrote:



Err, this is what most academia expects of you. The professor who wrote OP's letter is just trying to save some skin by claiming it was a joke. I do not doubt for one second that at the time the letter was written, it was a serious threat.

On July 23 2010 05:13 bITt.mAN wrote:
How dare anyone judge the letter picture in the OP and even attempt to apply it to anything IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE EXTENUATING CIRCUMSTANCES.

From the website:


Note the date, July 27. That means school is out in CalTech, thus we can deduce that this is a very intense and heavy-handed professor leading an elite summer-work schedule that students volunteered and signed up for. Have any of you aver been to CalTech in the summer? Let me assure you, its not empty.

There they actually know what diligence and working hard really means.

On July 23 2010 05:00 Arrian wrote:
It's much worse in the hard sciences than pretty much anywhere else as I understand it. Tough stuff.

It is called U.S. academia. I too lived the evenings and weekends life of a graduate student, and from there moved to a tenure track appointment at a fine public university. As an assistant professor, guess what? I worked evenings and weekends to develop a research program and achieve promotion and tenure. That was followed by an offer to be a department chair where, you guessed it, I worked weekends and evenings. Following that I accepted a position as dean at an excellent public university, and you know the rest, I worked weekends and evenings (plus state and national holidays). The U.S. university system may be the only remaining sector where our country holds global primacy. Is there a high personal cost? Yes. Is it stresssful and competitive? Yes. Do some very talented people get lost in the shuffle? Yes. But that is our system, it produces the finest research in biological and physical sciences in the world and it isn’t going to change. You want to join a law firm and try for partnership…get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful small business person….get used to weekends and evenings. You want to be a successful farmer…get used to weekends and evenings. It isn’t “slavery” if people know the expectations in advance and make an informed choice. Stuff the hyperbole about slavery and livestock in graduate science education. If you want a graduate program with tea and sympathy try art history, where you will be spared the prospect of a job working weekends and evenings. In fact, spared the prospect of any job at all.

On July 23 2010 05:35 Goobus wrote:
This is nothing compared to investment bankers, who work 80-120hrs/week year long, and only get 2 days vacation time per year. The pay comes down to $10/hr. I'm in business school, and all my friends who are investment bankers hate their lives. Even in wealth management, where I currently work, the interns work 100hrs/week.

At least you get to do cool experiments with cool equipment instead of making pitch books and formatting powerpoint presentations.

Lol, it's sad, but what the letter says is the truth. TBH Most professors expect grad students to stay late or even spend the night in the lab if they have an experiment going.

On July 23 2010 05:32 T.O.P. wrote:
I found this in the comments.

On July 23 2010 05:51 andrewlt wrote:
I really don't understand why so many people want to go into academia. If I'm going to be working slave labor hours, at least it's going to be somewhere like law and medicine where I can basically semi-retire after 10 years working. Are there really that many people who view academia as exciting that they're willing to work crappy hours for crappy pay?

I have a cousin who has a Ph.D in biology. He works probably closer to 40 hours/week instead of evenings/weekends but he's making roughly the same as me and I work 40 hours/week in corporate America.

On July 23 2010 06:43 Sadist wrote:



I agree with this. If was getting a PHD, its in medicine so I can get my own practice and make bank.

On July 23 2010 05:35 Goobus wrote:
This is nothing compared to investment bankers, who work 80-120hrs/week year long, and only get 2 days vacation time per year. The pay comes down to $10/hr. I'm in business school, and all my friends who are investment bankers hate their lives. Even in wealth management, where I currently work, the interns work 100hrs/week.

At least you get to do cool experiments with cool equipment instead of making pitch books and formatting powerpoint presentations.

On July 23 2010 06:49 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:


That's the thing. Most PhD students don't care about money. PhD students at top programs already outshined their peers in their undergrad and could easily make a killing starting their own company or working in wall street or something similar, but they'd rather do something intellectually fulfilling, you might call it a step up.

On July 23 2010 07:23 Sadist wrote:



If you dont care about money quit bitching.

I also doubt that most PHD students could start their own company. Some could sure, but I dont know if they have the personality type to do it (maybe something like CS you could because you fit in or whatever, but try being an ME or CE PhD and getting your own company as opposed to going to school)

On July 23 2010 06:45 Easy772 wrote:
This is terrible.. No wonder no one wants to be a scientist work any more.

On July 23 2010 04:45 Chriamon wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it funny the letter starts off with "Guido:"?

EDIT: I guess I should post more on topic as well.

Yea, its kind of sad, but the letter is right, the demand for those positions is extremely high, and if you can't work that schedule, don't go for that kind of job.

On July 23 2010 07:32 sith wrote:


His point was that they could easily make a very livable sum of money doing something OTHER than academia, which I think holds true for almost anyone with a PhD. They recognize they are taking a huge hit to do academia instead, but I think it's reasonable that these incredibly smart and hardworking people don't spend their lives toiling for such a meager salary.

Sadly although that would be fair, not many things in life are. Until the population as a whole begins to suddenly treat the pursuit of knowledge as worthwhile goal, things will likely remain the way they are.

On July 23 2010 07:41 Lexpar wrote:


Nah man it cracked me up too.

Maybe this guy should consider opening a chemistry lab in his basement. The pay is better, and you get to set your own hours .

On July 23 2010 07:44 Servolisk wrote:


Although it is beside the point people who succeed in the track to the point of becoming a tenured professor get large salaries (depending on school it could be like 200k/8 months and then 100k you pay yourself over the summer from your own grant). There are a lot of other top notch benefits too.

It seems half of tenured professors become lazy, quickly, and work less than average people with their job security. It is the most secure job in the world.

Then there are a lot of other benefits. Professors in science frequently have numerous patents or industry partnerships that arise from their research and many profit extensively.

On July 23 2010 07:46 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:


And you get to travel all over the world to conferences you get papers into, paid for by your funding source :D one of the best benefits imo.

(I'm submitting a paper to a Taipei conference this coming October... hope it gets in!)

On July 23 2010 07:53 Archerofaiur wrote:
OH IM SORRY GRAD STUDENTS I CANT HEAR YOU OVER MY 80+ HOUR INTERNSHIP YEAR! IS IT TRUE YOU GUYS GET TO SLEEP OCCASIONALLY?!?!



+ Show Spoiler +

On July 23 2010 08:05 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:


Most PhD students don't complain about the workload though, because they knew exactly what they were getting into before they began. Honestly I'm happier as a grad student with an 80+ hour work week when things are happening quickly than a 40 hour work week when things are progressing slowly.

On July 23 2010 08:07 Servolisk wrote:


Yeah the long hours can be well spent, relatively. :o I never really watch the clock waiting for my working day to end as many corporate employees do, and I definitely would if I did not find my work interesting...

On July 23 2010 05:01 LaughingTulkas wrote:
I just finished my PhD for Mechanical Engineering (focusing on biomedical applications of lubrication technology) but my prof was not like this at all. He was very hands off, and just judged by our results, he didn't even know if we were in lab or not, we just had to have deliverables when we meet with the people funding our projects. I got my PhD at Notre Dame, which while not in the very top tier of research schools, still has a high academic reputation. It mostly depends on your prof, and maybe on your field as well.

On July 23 2010 07:57 mmp wrote:
I remember heading to lab late one night to run an NMR sample, found one of my teaching assistants (a grad student) also running a sample with his girlfriend impatiently waiting. It was like 2am.

On July 23 2010 08:33 SirKibbleX wrote:
Academia: the most hilariously ironic thing ever. "Intelligent" people doing long hours of work for little or no pay... hilarious.

Protip: Become an Engineer, Software Engineer, or get involved in Business while there's still time. A truly intelligent person would know what he or she wants out of life, and would be willing to do what it takes to get it.

On July 23 2010 08:50 AcrossFiveJulys wrote:


Which, for those in academia, is intellectual stimulation, constantly overcoming challenges, and placing a brick in the edifice of science. You seem to be assuming that everyone's true desires in life are riches and luxury.

On July 23 2010 09:03 SirKibbleX wrote:


Then no one should be complaining about it, or implying that working absurdly long hours is somehow not what they want or expect out of life.

On July 23 2010 08:17 ArvickHero wrote:
So.. people have a problem working hard or have never really worked hard before, so instead of doing the hard work that all generations past have been for post-docs, people bitch about how its "slavery" because they are too damn lazy.

-_____________________-

On July 23 2010 08:21 O-ops wrote:


Forgive me for my in-sensitiveness, but somehow i just lol'ed really hard when i read that.

But yeah, this is really bad stuff. There needs to be an academic version of the 40h workweek law or something.

On July 23 2010 04:46 semantics wrote:
You're not tring to paint a dim picture of academia but this thread is
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=125572

On July 26 2010 23:01 miseiler wrote:
I'm a bit surprised at some of the responses in this thread. I work all day and weekends because I want to do it. If I didn't, I wouldn't be slaving away at a PhD making less than enough to live with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Industry work is not interesting. I do grad work (and will continue in academia) because I like it. I do the research I want to on the projects I am interested in.

That kind of freedom comes at a very, very steep price. If you don't want to pay it, you do not have the right to complain.

On July 26 2010 23:01 miseiler wrote:
I'm a bit surprised at some of the responses in this thread. I work all day and weekends because I want to do it. If I didn't, I wouldn't be slaving away at a PhD making less than enough to live with no light at the end of the tunnel.

Industry work is not interesting. I do grad work (and will continue in academia) because I like it. I do the research I want to on the projects I am interested in.

That kind of freedom comes at a very, very steep price. If you don't want to pay it, you do not have the right to complain.

On August 09 2010 11:56 gdroxor wrote:
tbh the only reason that student/postdoc research is so damn time-consuming is because of how competitive the sciences are in the United States. The people you work for while doing graduate research are for the most part hypercompetitive, backstabbing, Machiavellian, draconic assholes who want nothing more than to have that next breakthrough research, even if that means undercutting someone else to get it. They are motivated to get the research done as fast and efficiently as possible, even if you aren't.

That being said, I plan to pursue medical training after undergraduate, research is just too sixth-grade drama with multimillion dollar equipment for me.

On August 09 2010 11:56 gdroxor wrote:
tbh the only reason that student/postdoc research is so damn time-consuming is because of how competitive the sciences are in the United States. The people you work for while doing graduate research are for the most part hypercompetitive, backstabbing, Machiavellian, draconic assholes who want nothing more than to have that next breakthrough research, even if that means undercutting someone else to get it. They are motivated to get the research done as fast and efficiently as possible, even if you aren't.

That being said, I plan to pursue medical training after undergraduate, research is just too sixth-grade drama with multimillion dollar equipment for me.

On August 09 2010 07:29 Liquid`Tyler wrote:


Attitudes like yours are the reason why the system continues to survive. You provided an explanation for the way it is, but not an argument supporting the way it is. There's no justification for the system being the way it is. Those working conditions just suck. And science is probably worse off because of it since talented people have incentive to take other paths.

So yeah, it's understandable that people do it. But people who don't want to do it, or did it and quit, haven't lost their right to judge it.

Ideally, all jobs would have perfect working conditions. I can't think of a reason why someone would disagree with that. So, all PhD students should have perfect working conditions. Any outsider can see that the working conditions aren't perfect. So they complain that the working conditions aren't perfect. It does not matter that some PhD students have perfect working conditions, or that some PhD students have tolerable working conditions, or even that all PhD students think that the working conditions are worth it and are satisfied. The fact is still that the working conditions are less than perfect so they should be improved to the greatest extent possible.

On August 10 2010 22:45 sikyon wrote:


No, the reason the system continues to survive is because there is limited money for these positions and therefore competition is extremly heavy. I don't know what a perfect working condition is to you but it varies from job to job.