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This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section, this are my Thoughts why we shouldn't use nukes as a mainframe Strategy, please comment and share thoughts
First we should calculate timings,Obs,Cloak,Dropship, and what will nuke usage be?, pure harassment?, mind games?, because certainly it won't be "End Game Strategy".
If its for Harassment, I think its a lot better to use 4 vultures, with a dropship, in almost every way, lets say you kill from 6 to 8 probes with 4 vultures and then you lose them, so lets say you laid all the 12 mines you get, then kill 6-8 porbes meaning from 300-400 minerals PLUS rebuilding them and mining time. Lets Say 12 mines 600-700-ish(-300 of your vultures) minerals and 20-30 seconds that you mine more than you opponent. Now that is pretty effective harassment, and it can all come from the regular buildings you will use as Terran, Facotry+Starport.
If you use Nuke you MUST kill the expansion to make it cost effective, beacuse probes WILL BE moved, making your nuke only kill a nexus and maybe pylon gas, if you're lucky enough you might get the Cybernetics Core, but it depends on the position it is so lets say most of the time you just get Pylon+Gas+Nexus, so 600+Rebuilding the nexus, and maybe supply stuck, but as I said before you MUST make it work, because if you throw your Nuke and your ghost gets sniped you will LOSE 200/200 nuke +25/75.
Since Nuke isn't a "End Game" Strategy, the best way to use them would be as Upgrade Terran, because you could time your covert Ops to star right when your 2-1 upgrades are at 1/4 done, and you should have the Vessel already out incase of some 2 base arb play, then you could add the Silo at your 3rd and start Cloak/Ghost/Dropship, and if everything goes according to planed you kill an expansion, by this time I think your 2-1 upgrades will be finishing or will have finished like 10 seconds earlier, so it would be "Ideal" to push at this time,of course since you got more tech you might have 2-3 factories less than you would want, making you factory number 7-8 and making your 2-1 timing a little less DEADLY, but since he probably will be at the same number or less bases you are and you could out produce him, or just take map control, and play less aggressively, this to me is the most "effective" way to see nukes in TvP,
But this still seems very risky, because if your nuke really didn't work, you will end up way behind, since you got spells+add ons, that could've been more factories ending up in more units for a stronger push. So your position would be Less units, less factories, and your regular Protoss will be expecting a lot more units and better macro from your "style of play", so basically, if you lose your nuke, you pretty much lose the game.
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.
But you never know, should give it a try XD
Mod Edit: Don't bold your entire post
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Nukes:
Expensive, and large tech tree
Takes forever to make
Easily preventable as it takes way too long to land
Ghosts have crappy hit points
Late game PvT has lots of observers
Doesn't kill much
Did you really need 5 paragraphs to explain something thats been obvious for years?
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Teching to nukes late game is a joke
just spend all of that money into making more tanks + vults
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Well as far as I know nuking has only been proven to be effective at a very high level if you just happen to be BoxeR, a nuke means not having that extra scanner for cloaked units, but it means a more fun game
I wonder if it could be a viable counter to fast 3rd, will investigate...
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On November 26 2009 06:12 atm0sphere33 wrote:
Nukes:
Expensive, and large tech tree
Takes forever to make
Easily preventable as it takes way too long to land
Ghosts have crappy hit points
Late game PvT has lots of observers
Doesn't kill much
Did you really need 5 paragraphs to explain something thats been obvious for years?
You forgot about how nukes take away a scanner. That is a HUGE deal in any point of any game.
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Dont forget it costs you a scanner too
Although I feel unsure about why it would be any better in SC2
Does it clear mines? it might be useful in TvT, but thats pretty much it, oh and it stops mining for less time than a vulture drop...
I bet it was awesome at first at blizzard HQ when making SC, because people often wouldnt notice the red dot. (Oh right, no voice to inform you about it in sc2, that's gonna be awesome :D). But once people got experience, they realized that they could check all the viable nukespots and save their workers/army in time...
MAYBE, it could be used to nuke a defiler mound/arbiter tribunal?
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i like how the entire post is in caps lol
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On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol
what?
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Oh god... its just so bold and authoritative... I have to listen to it. You're right nukes are the way to go.
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On November 26 2009 06:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol what?
he meant in BOLD.
Atmosphere summed up the negatives pretty well.
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On November 26 2009 06:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol what?
Bold, but yeah, I couldn't read the post because it sounded like he was lecturing me like my History instructor, emphasizing whole sentences and topics.
Ghosts are not viable because of how far they are in to the tech tree, how few hit points they have, how you have to research 4 upgrades for them to be as good as they can be, which is still mediocre, and they're gas heavy.
Add to the fact that the first nuke costs 250/250, all subsequent nukes are 200/200, and take as long to build as a barracks (or around there), and it becomes clear just how much trouble a person would have justifying their use. If it could get any worse, if that ghost dies while channeling, you lose 225/275 resources with out doing 1 HP of damage.
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I just played a game using ghosts/nukes/lockdown vs a protoss. I did pretty well and I actually managed to lockdown his first arbiter over a turret when he went 2 base arbiter tech. He lost it and it helped me alot. But as the game progressed, it was hard to use nuke effectivly. Also I ended up spending all my gas on ghost upgrades (cloak,Lockdown,Range) and I also got screwed later when I ended up empty of scan energy because the silo took it up.
If I had added more factories and buildt more vessels. It would have been much better for me as I probably would have defended against the recall anyway without loosing to much.
And if you are gonna use nukes. You just have to upgrade lockdown aswell. If not all the ghost cloak as stuff has ONLY been for nukes which is not cost effective at all.
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Tbh i think nukes are only good vs Z(one time deal) and vs T(can be used really effectively in TvT)
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On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section,
Well, thats true... but you should ask yourself "Is this a strategy that perhaps has been discussed before at great lengths?" before posting it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ghost#Nuke
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[B]On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.
I know exactly what you mean! + Show Spoiler +Ok, I haven't got the slightest clue.
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Thanks for the link to that vod, awesome game.
If you remember, Leta did something exactly like that to Pure a few weeks ago. It seems really map specific, as in both games the expos being nuked were extremely close to the T's base by air, and had a nice little spot to drop the ghost while being protected by ground.
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On November 26 2009 13:26 Gnarly wrote:
Wow, posted in the wrong thread.
I don't think I saw it mentioned in here, but EMPing and nuking gates would be a pretty effective way to nuke. It's still got the same drawbacks, possibly prone to getting killed easier due to being at the gates, but the lack of detection could make it all the worthwhile.
Nuking gates that have been EMP'ed, you're sure to hit your target, and once you destroy them, the toss will have a bitch of a time to pump out units. Easy (t)rolling? Instead of maybe hitting peons and taking out an expansion, just do what a recall can be used for: destroy bases. Or even take his tech out, instead of gates.
Depending on the situation, though.
ive had this done to me before, the thing is the damage is splash.even if you emp all gateways and stick the nuke in the middle of the gates, youll get like 3 pylons and 2 gateways at most. in the late game, thats littlerally worthless as the psi is probably over 200 anyways and most likely theres no econ to even need those 2 gateways
I think its more of a mentallity thing, nuking someone will just give them wtf face and maybe mess them up a little.
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I think nukes are a huge attention sink for your opponent, they pretty much have to stop whatever they are doing and look for the red dot for several seconds, while you just fire and continue playing.
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Since nukes are not very cost efficient for damaging anything, the best use for them is probably to gain a positional advantage (which would be most applicable in TvT or maybe TvZ). For example, breaking a huge tank line would be a pain in the ass and cost a lot of your own units to have to do it, but nuking to at least force them out of position can let you set up your own tanks in range of their expansion, and then they will be in the same dilemma that you had. The same can be done but probably not as commonly in TvZ for lurkers/sunks (see casy vs jy lol). Against toss I can't really see much use honestly.
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EPT
