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On November 30 2009 07:55 niteReloaded wrote:
The more starcraft progresses, the more room for nukes there will be.
It's a perfectly reasonable late game tactic in my opinion.
It consumes a huge amount of your opponents attention, and by doing that, gives you an advantage in the battles you'll be fighting on the other side of the map.
Nobody want's to lose an expo full of drones/probes. (even if the hatch/nex survives)
So, when you launch a nuke, you can bet your ass that your opponent is gonna switch his attention to the nuke until he finds the dot. A good way to abuse nukes would be to even nuke empty space, and keep doing the standard things while the opponent panicks. Do it 2 times, then 3rd time nuke him for real.
Combining the nuke with a drop, like fantasy showed, is a combination that can't NOT do serious damage.
In short, nuke sucks as a pillar of your strategy.
But it's an awesome "multitasking overloader".
Precisely--1 nuke + 1 ghost + cloak costs less than 2 dropships of tank/vult... in TvP, EMP is researched anyways so the nuke might even be a better harassment option and a better basekiller
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well, nukes are too high up in the tech tree, they are very expensive, they take a long time to make, and if you target the nuke, but the ghost dies before the nuke falls, you just wasted a lot of money that could have been spent on units
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because the moment that nukes become routine, they stop being hilariously laughable.
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Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in.
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As a "multi-tasking over-loader" I think they have potential. Imagine a TvP with the Terran timing his push to take place right at the moment his opponent hears "nuclear launch detected". That could give him a micro advantage for the 2-10 seconds it takes his opponent to find the dot and move his stuff.
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Yeah, late game is it fairly viable, especially when terran is moving his ball out in TvP. it really throws the toss off guard, especially since it is hard to catch a ghost in TvP given observers arent left at every expo.
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On December 01 2009 07:28 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 19:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in. You know, this might actually hold something. Marine range is 5 while mutas are three, but ghosts are 7. And they do full damage, which makes it difficult to pick them off. By the time you're attacking with the mutas, you've probably already lost one.
Ya but Ghosts have no stim, cost 75 gas and take way more tech than marines with stim and range... also if the zerg goes Hydra or links your pretty much done...
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nukes are for boxer to make starcraft entertaining.
on the plus side you can get ghost with lockdown for the late game vs arbiters and a carrier switch
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On November 29 2009 01:52 StylishVODs wrote:
same as queens, it's just too much damn work
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too expensive and less dmg (doesnt kill gates, nexus or hatches in 1 hit without emp)
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On November 26 2009 07:05 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section, Well, thats true... but you should ask yourself "Is this a strategy that perhaps has been discussed before at great lengths?" before posting it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ghost#Nuke
Woooo my first Liquipedia quote, I wrote the Nuke part. *is proud* :D
If anyone feels like something should be added to Liquipedia, feel free to add it for the future generations. 
As for nukes... I'll try experimenting a bit, but it's hard to pull of early, as you spend resources on the tech rather than units to defend/attack. If it fails, you're behind a lot.
The only way I see it viable is if you gain an advantage in early/mid game, and use it in mid/late game to stretch your opponents attention all over the map and attack at the same time, or just bust some defensive line. But that's already been mentioned. ^^
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On December 01 2009 07:28 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 19:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in. You know, this might actually hold something. Marine range is 5 while mutas are three, but ghosts are 7. And they do full damage, which makes it difficult to pick them off. By the time you're attacking with the mutas, you've probably already lost one.
Basically he's rushing sci off of 1 rax and getting an addon while expanding instead of trying any sort of m/m aggression because he predicts a 3 hatch muta build and doesn't need turrets because his m/m is already at his base when the muta timing hits. After he gets (ghost) range started he drops a few turrets to keep his base safe and moves out towards your natural with one scanner and one nuke building. Either you flank his m/m super hard with mass ling/muta or get nuked at your choke and he rushes it with 1-0 m/m/ghost and dmatrix to finish. It's pretty hard to counter because his m/m micro is really good and the only way to stop it is to fight them because lurkers get outranged hard by 1-0 ghost with sight upgrade.
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You guys do know that it's possible to nuke the Corner Expos in HBR from your own base, right?
You aim the dot slightly off target, but the splash will deal enough damage to kill the nex(if combined with EMP) OR to kill the hatchery in 2 nukes.(all workers will die in first nuke, except maybe the farthest mineral patch)
I had some good games vs Z yesterday, the reps are on the other computer.
I use what someone would call a freak strategy of Valks+Tanks+Vultures and play mostly managment style.(the only aggression comes from speed vults)
I take my side of map and make Zerg have one less expo by repeatedly nuking the corner one.
I'm still very bad at executing, but you can expect a good replay within a few days.
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nukes scouts and queens should all be improved imo :p not alot tho just very very little^^
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I'm sure he would approve of this thread:
On a more serious note, this can be pulled out successfully. However, stuff that deals with atomic weapons always have some controversy behind them. Like the HwaSIn incident.
lol
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The topic of this thread is Why No Nukes? but no one has actually gotten it right yet. The reason Nukes aren't used is that nobody knows how to use them right yet. Except for boxer that is. I love using nukes, but they are very difficult to use correctly. If you do use nukes correctly, they are totally the best thing for sheer killing power, on buildings or units.
They can be use to overload the oponnent, true, but if he keeps his cool it doesn't quite work so well (though a strong push in 1-2 places and 1-2 nuke drops with enough support are quite hard to defend, and it's nice to see 3 bases go down at once.). As such, Nukes require Very good scouting to use. Protoss are probably the most effective targets for nukes, Terran can be vulnerable too, but I almost never go nuke vs zerg as it's too limited in that match. The key to using nukes is that ghosts are not meant to be alone, even though they can cloak. The cloak is meant to make them extremely hard to hit, which is even more true when there are support units with them that become the default targets.
I usually don't need more than 2 comsats anyway If I have vessels in play. Nukes do cost a significant amount of resources and time to get too, but ghosts have more uses, especially vs Protoss. Lockdown affects all Protoss units save Templar and Zealots, is a good counter to Arbiters, and lasts a full minute on normal speed, making it the longest lasting spell (even more than stasis, and you can damage them), so I go ghosts vs Protoss alot, and already have them in play by the time I would want to go nuke. Against Protoss with unit support, ghosts can be extremely difficult to kill before the nuke lands, as science vessels will detect observers for your support units to kill very quickly, and can dmatrix the ghost if he does get spotted and attacked, and a medic can heal the ghost too (Flare sucks though, not worth it to blind instead of kill); all this together means that the nuke is almost sure to land (I land them like 85-90% like this). Even if your entire force gets destroyed but the nuke lands it is well worth the cost.
Nukes can completely erradicate a players Gateways (or other production facilities), tech, or supply, and completely cripple the opponent in one swoop. I used 2 nukes in a game to completely obliterate someones main including a lot of tech and supply, and 3-4 Facts, leaving only 2 depots on the edge (the range of damage actually goes up if you use multiple nukes). Losing 3-8 Gates or Facts will pretty much result in an overwhelming advantage. 2 Nukes at once are much more effective than 2 nukes spaced out. This does cost a lot more investment for extra supply, money, silo, etc., but multiple nuke silos mean faster nukes if you do launch only 1 at expansions and use EMP, but multiple silos is definately for late game, and 1 Nuke+EMP can work until then. Nukes can be used on armies too, but it's not as good as vs buildings in my opinion. Siege Tanks can be vulnerable though, as they take a long time to move and can be locked down beforehand, also really good if you flank with a few units to intercept the ones that flee.
One problem is that I end up making a medic or two to support the ghosts, but the medic doesn't really have much other use for the match. Another problem is you have to watch out for Psi Storm defense, but you can EMP HTs in advance. The Main Problem I run into when I use nukes is they cost a Lot of Supply, having to have an extra depot for every nuke can mess with your army size and macro, but if people can practice and find good builds nukes will be very viable. Anyways....
1. Support your ghosts, and they will be much much stronger and live to land the nuke.
2. Ghosts can lockdown too so they have more use than just nukes. I usually already have them v Protoss, whether or not I end up actually going for nukes.
3. Nukes can cripple Production, supply, or tech, and should be used for that purpose, (softening up defenses can be good too, but not anywhere near as good as the other uses)
4. If using Nukes to overload your opponents attention, make sure he is already overloaded before launching. Otherwise it won't be effective against a good player who keeps his cool. Make an army push in 1-2 places with 1-2 nuke drops to ensure it.
Follow these simple steps and Nukes can become gamewinners for you too. Enemies will shit their pants when all their gates/facts detonate, and practically end up gg as soon as they hear those 3 little words.......
P.S. I apologize for all the bold, but it's a long post, so I wanted to make my points clear for people.
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Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.)
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EPT![[image loading]](http://www.insidesocal.com/techout/assets_c/2009/05/duke-thumb-480x357.jpg)
