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On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.)
Canceling the nuke will only save your ghost, the nuke will have already been used.
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On February 19 2010 02:29 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.) Canceling the nuke will only save your ghost, the nuke will have already been used.
Canceling the nuke will also stop the area from exploding, which means Terran can nuke areas where he has some units/turrets/mines, and cancel it (costing him 200/200 + build time, yes) if Protoss doesn't move in. (The idea in mind was covering a flank with mines + nuke while the Terran army moves forward, and canceling to save your mines and any turrets you may have left in place if the Protoss stays back.)
Nukes eat a lot of supply, though. If you're not using ghosts for Lockdown it's probably a terrible plan to use them for nuke.
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On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
I revived this thread to point out how to use nukes so that they land (supporting ghosts effectively), and how to use nukes most effectively (base/mobility killing).
Nukes can be used on armies, but both Terran and Protoss build and rely on large amounts of production facilities to replenish their armies quickly, and most people group them together for ease, and this makes them very vulnerable to Nukes.
If you spend some resources and a relatively small support army to wipe out 4-6 of their 8 Facts/Gates, they still have their army, but cannot replenish them quickly anymore ( If you assault an expansion at the same time and weaken their econ (possibly luring their army away too) they suffer a major setback that is nearly impossible to come back from, as your production facilities will vastly outnumber theirs, possibly even 2 to 1 even if your army is slightly weaker from the tech and sacrifice of launching nukes. The econ blow from the expansion assault makes it even more difficult for them to rebuild. Taking out their tech and supply to keep their abilities and units low is also useful, but not quite as much.
With twice as much production as your opponent, it's hard NOT to steamroll them. Just keep your macro up and base defense decent enough, and nukes can be gamewinning blows to the enemy.
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I only watched starcraft, but did not play starcraft. So I do not know the technical aspect of games and how viable it is.
But I'll just share my view as a fan of starcraft anyhow. hahahs.
Nuke is high damage AOE which is very high cost, high tech and hard to execute nicely.
Maybe, more suitable for creative play? Boxer is creative, YA!
It is not a straightforward weapon because on paper it is not a good idea to use nuke when you had other cheaper and better options.
Maybe there are times your game sense tells you "Hm...at this moment it might be better to use nuke after all."
I don't know, maybe opponent is good in vesus Terran and you need something out of the box to win?
When all things fail, just nuke ahahahas.
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with the new observer blind thing going on, perhaps that opens up a chance for more nukes to be seen.
but i still doubt it will become prevalent. maybe we just get to see it a bit more frequently from boxer and fantasy, and a few other daring terrans
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Um... sure if you can take out 10 gateways, its good, but how are you getting ghosts into the middle of the protoss' base with plenty of support? You have either rolled him already and walked your slow moving immobile as hell mech army up there, so you don't even need the nukes to win. OR you have dropshiped him in, but no competent protoss will let 1 ghost 3 vultures/golies a medic and a vessal nuke him.
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Nukes launch pretty quickly, actually. The only thing you need to do is stay alive until then, I usually use the support group as more of a suicide group, since the nuke will take out everything anyway. They point is to start an assault somewhere else to distract them, and then have a few units to keep drive away detection and absorb fire for about 15 secs while the cloaked ghost does its job, and Dmatrix if necessary to buy the extra time. 3-5 dropships of units is enough to buy the time needed depending on where you strike and defenses, which is why scouting is important as to approach vectors and placement. 3 dropships can fit 2 tanks, 4 gols, 3 vultures, a medic and a ghost for example, or anything else you want, and bring a vessel with them, then retreat the dropships and use the vessel for detection/dmatrix/emp before it runs too. As long as you can keep detectors away long enough, it doesn't matter if you lose the units. You can use more dropships to bring in a bigger force if necessary. Nukes aren't always an option if there is no good approach into the base and no good spot to nuke from, but you can use their own simcity to your advantage to keep their units at bay
All you need to do is drive off detectors for a short time. If I lose the units I really don't care, as long as the nuke goes off. Your main army distracts your opponent elsewhere FIRST, before nuke targets and rapes them. The key is to just buy time. (I use it really effectively like this)
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A D-matrixed marine with a medic is basically impossible to kill unless he has half a control group of units there all attack it.
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On February 20 2010 01:39 dyos wrote:
A D-matrixed marine with a medic is basically impossible to kill unless he has half a control group of units there all attack it.
Kill the medic 1st. Then it's easy. Unless you have 7 medics 1 dmatrixed ghost? but dmatrix also cancels out cloak
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D-matrix the medic, cloak the ghost. Blind all detection coming in.
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A nuke launches in only 14 sec (+3 secs after targeted ends to land). Even 3 medics with a cloaked ghost and support units against detectors will easily last that long, provided that you plan your attack well with scouting and distract the enemy. (do you target the medics first, or the ghost? too late, your dead. multiple medics are ridiculously strong anyway.)
Dmatrix is really only necessary if you find that you don't have the firepower to drive off many detectors, or Comsat is used. It is possible to take out a small group of support units with 3-5 medics and a ghost or two with, even with the Dmatrix, but not before the Nuke launches and lands. Extra ghosts can confuse the enemy and lockdown too, but I rarely waste them like that unless I'm sure I can get them out after. If you like mines and don't mind wasting them (I don't use them) you can block incoming troops using them, but they'll end up be destroyed by the nuke.
If you really need to, you can even hover your Vessel or Dropship over the Ghost so he Can't Target Them!!! (nearby ebay/rax are usually too slow) Protoss hover shuttles over HTs and use hotkeys to storm, why can't Terran?
Between the time to leave the main battle to look for the launch, bringing in detection or scanning, bringing in units, possibly getting through mines if you're into that, and targeting the ghost, it is quite easy to buy those 15 secs you need especially if the ghost is supported, cloaked, dmatrixed only if necessary, and/or covered and untargetable manually.
Between all the things you can do to hinder the enemy, if you can't buy more than enough time, then work on your Terran micro and scouting, cause I have no problems even without doing everything I can on the list.
Scouting is key to finding the right place.
[Edit] Someone suggested dmatrix on the medic too. Multiple medics are already hard enough to kill, so it's not necessary really, but if detection is not blinded(flare really sucks and is usually not gotten), and the ghost is not covered/dmatrixed already, and you have the energy to spare, this makes it nigh impossible to kill the ghost before the nuke launches. Extra energy is the only limiting factor for that. You could probably buy almost enough time for 2 nukes that way if you replenish dmatrix, but you should be launching them at the same time anyway.
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Too much theory. If ur wondering why no nukes just go play a tvp and try it out and you'll see exactly why it fails. OTher than tvt where u can make tank lines move nukes are just a humiliation tactic
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I'm a fan of late-game 6 marine, 1 medic, 1 ghost drops in TvZ. I never do them without first taking the zerg's attention. He's busy trying to get position on my push, or rushing to save an expo from 12 mnm, and then he hears the nuclear strike warning!
I kill overlords in the area with the marines and/or use them to soften up buildings so the nuke can kill them. They can also delay whatever units he scrambles to kill your ghost. I usually go for a clump of tech buildings.
Sneaky tricks >:-)
-If any of his buildings are damaged, their bleeding makes it hard to spot the red dot.
-If you hide a ghost behind an extractor, he's hard to target.
Of course, I'm just a D player, so against better zergs, I dunno how well this works.
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someone suggested ghost +medic with variation of d-matrix
isnt the medic will make it obvious where his location ghost ) is
hence easlly countered with statis!
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Sea.Really vs Sea (and other players)
Canata vs BeSt (and other players)
BoxeR vs KilleR
BoxeR vs Nal_rA
possible other Boxer's but idk
anyways those are the games I remember from the top of my head
ahh yes and a statis or storm can easily kill the nuke, stasis can be provided without detection if your opponent is able to see the blur or remember where you are
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Spells are the best counter to nukes (and pretty much everything else), but that's why scouting is so important. EMP and Lockdown are both effective counters to Arbiters. Psi Storm Defense is the most difficult to break into in the first place, making nuking very hard, but EMP could also be used to deplete HT energy just before moving in (though its really just better to attack something else entirely in that case). While the ghost is cloaked, it doesn't actually have to be next to the units or the medics right away (the units should be able to move to block though), only after you fail at driving off detection is when the medics are necessary, and the dmatrix. Multiple ghosts can confuse the enemy, but not usually worth it unless you think you can get them out after.
You should always be distracting the enemy with an more than one thing elsewhere first (like an attack and another drop) before nuking. It's not hard to buy that much time in a game though, and most people rally troops away from production facilities, but if there is some good spell/detection/unit defense you aren't strong enough to neutralize, then don't attack there, that's like purposefully running into lurkers you know are there without detection. Nuking when the enemy is paying attention and well defended is suicide, scout the viability of it first, then take all the steps needed to hinder him in attention and defense of the area (which are detailed in previous posts). All you need to buy is about 15 secs, but if your scouting shows it's not viable, then do something somewhere else instead.
[Edit] Thanks Trinimasta for providing some games (haven't seen those specific ones though). Most of the things I've talked about are my strategies I use in my games (other than mines, I don't use them), but I know that the pros can do it much better, especially seen Boxer use a lot of these techniques in his Nuke strategies. Nukes don't come up in pro games a lot, and probably people aren't used to countering them because of that, but they do get landed on pros, proving that it can be done even on pros and is viable at times, and I hope I've explained how to do so effectively throughout this thread. [/Edit]
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On February 20 2010 01:54 KawaiiRice wrote:
D-matrix the medic, cloak the ghost. Blind all detection coming in.
You're missing steps:
1) Pick protoss
2) Tech Mind Control
3) Mind Control Defiler
4) Mind Control SCV
5) Tech Nuke
6) Dmatrix the medic
7) Cloak the ghost
8) Dark Swarm the ghost and medic
9) Float a barracks over the ghost and medic
10) Blind all detection coming in
11) Land nuke and make their buildings have like HALF HP!!
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I remember a game where a terran went all vulture and teched up to nukes and destroyed a protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +Oh wait that was fbh verses some battle.net noob
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I completly agree with Fyrewolf on this issue and would have posted something similar if he hadn't. Of course you are going to lose a lot ghosts/nukes if you try to dropship or run them in cloaked a lone and hope you get that nuke off.
I usually have a couple of ghosts in my group anyways for their lockdown ability, because if you do need it, you REALLY need it. Also, when you get to their base, you probably are either worn down from a battle, or are about to get attacked because you sneaked over. If he has any kind of turtle up, the nuke will take care of it nicely. That row of cannons and a pylon or two are quickly disposed of, including any forces he had in his base he was sending out to greet you. This is especially nice when when the cannons are at the top of a hill or ramp where you sight is limited.
Late game, your probably have a pile of cash if you have 3+ expo. At least, you should have enough that the cost of a nuke or two isn't going to be a significant cost. Trying to tech early to nukes will, I agree, cost you to many early units, but late-mid to late game, the relative costs starts to shrink rapidly, especially if you already have many of the buildings and units built.
Ghosts are usefull in their own right when sent in with a push, and having the nuke is just icing on the cake. The nuke just helps you do what you were going to do anyways, faster, which is to blow shit up. If you are lucky, you can lockdown and nuke carriers, which will cost them big, and probably piss them off something terrible.
I destoryed 7 carriers once with a nuke because he couldn't find the dot, and he got so mad the gg, even though he wasn't out yet by a long shot.
No unit or ability in this game is useless. Just becasue you can't personally see a use for it, doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I think the problem is that people asume it should be some, main base killing, super power, gg weapon of mass distruction, when in fact it is just one tool on your tool belt. It would be stupid to think a lone ghost with a nuke can do significant damage to any competent players base, but if you use their power as part of your attacking force, then you have something in your back pocket.
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Finally, someone understands the point I've been trying to make and agrees with me. I've constantly stressed that Nuking is not the only thing you should be doing in every post here. It is merely one tool, and won't eliminate the need for everything else you should already be doing. It is however, one of the most powerful spells in the game. It can destroy huge swaths of territory in a single quick strike, making tactical nukes very useful. And as shown in previous posts examples, those strikes can be powerful enough to be game changing (i.e. destroying lots of turtle base defense, lots of high level units like carriers, severely cutting enemy production capacity of units, supply or tech). Nuke is a good weapon for sieging the enemy (as in outranging the enemy, not specifically the tank), and late game, it is very powerful. Even if you don't use them a lot, the threat itself is extremely powerful. (a good example of threat is being unable to move out right away because mutas are in play and will rape your base when you do, giving zerg an advantage without necessarily being stronger)
Also, it is much easier when doing multiple attacks to make one of those attacks be a supported nuke attack, as it is difficult and expensive to split an army into 3-4 assaults. Compared to what it would take to devote part of your army to a successful multiple assault, it costs relatively less in support units/cost late game, and forces their concentration to stopping a nuke, allowing you to overwhelm multiple expansions even if it fails. If you have multiple nukes, while they are better together, you can launch in multiple places while making other assaults with your army, the enemy will almost always lose a lot somewhere, as he will devote most of his attention to stopping the nukes, and likely won't be able to stop one of them, and your main assault, and possibly not another drop you've made elsewhere. Nuking is never the only thing you should be doing, but it is one of the most powerful things you can do.
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EPT
