EPTWhy no nukes? - Page 7
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
On February 21 2010 07:55 Froadac wrote: Plus ghosts die in two shots to vults... Dude, what are you talking about? Ghosts don't die in two shots to vultures. They have 45 hp (3 hits), they're going to be cloaked, there should be units in the way, there should be a medic nearby (though not very useful against vultures), and a dmatrix should go off as soon as you see the ghost in trouble. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
On February 21 2010 05:13 Fyrewolf wrote: Finally, someone understands the point I've been trying to make and agrees with me. I've constantly stressed that Nuking is not the only thing you should be doing in every post here. It is merely one tool, and won't eliminate the need for everything else you should already be doing. It is however, one of the most powerful spells in the game. It can destroy huge swaths of territory in a single quick strike, making tactical nukes very useful. And as shown in previous posts examples, those strikes can be powerful enough to be game changing (i.e. destroying lots of turtle base defense, lots of high level units like carriers, severely cutting enemy production capacity of units, supply or tech). Nuke is a good weapon for sieging the enemy (as in outranging the enemy, not specifically the tank), and late game, it is very powerful. Even if you don't use them a lot, the threat itself is extremely powerful. (a good example of threat is being unable to move out right away because mutas are in play and will rape your base when you do, giving zerg an advantage without necessarily being stronger) Also, it is much easier when doing multiple attacks to make one of those attacks be a supported nuke attack, as it is difficult and expensive to split an army into 3-4 assaults. Compared to what it would take to devote part of your army to a successful multiple assault, it costs relatively less in support units/cost late game, and forces their concentration to stopping a nuke, allowing you to overwhelm multiple expansions even if it fails. If you have multiple nukes, while they are better together, you can launch in multiple places while making other assaults with your army, the enemy will almost always lose a lot somewhere, as he will devote most of his attention to stopping the nukes, and likely won't be able to stop one of them, and your main assault, and possibly not another drop you've made elsewhere. Nuking is never the only thing you should be doing, but it is one of the most powerful things you can do. Will you stop underlining everything? Landing a nuke doesn't win the game. Landing a nuke puts a hatchery or a nexus/cc at like 1/3 health. WHOA. | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
User was warned for this post and his general posting behaviors in this thread | ||
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RageOverdose
United States690 Posts
On February 21 2010 08:36 Fyrewolf wrote: Underlining helps bring out main points in a long post, don't like it then kiss my ass. I've been stressing that nukes aren't the only thing you should be doing, and don't replace all the things you should be. Try reading posts before you make a response, especially since the underlined parts are those exact points that nukes aren't everything. I think I speak for a few people when I say that a few replays demonstrating your theory would be nice that are at competent skill levels. Everything you should be doing sounds like it gets nerfed by how much you have to be putting into this type of attack. All the money and supply is probably better spent on Tanks or Vultures, at least against P and T. Besides you're going to want those extra scans, and since you want to put your Vessel in the way of potential death, you may be susceptible to an Arbiter vP, although the Vessel serves no purpose vT with the Ghost. Your whole idea removes any surprise element to this. You've made the nuke location a beacon with your units. D-matrix nullifies the ability to cloak, the only reason you should cloak now is to keep your energy low against a counter Feedback. Which goes to the whole scouting issue. If P scouts the Covert Ops or Silo, they should know what's going on. That means more Obs and a more aware player and if they're thinking right, they can devise some sort of counter to this that probably costs far less than your idea and would keep them ahead of you. Feedback not only could kill/severely weaken the D-matrix (assuming it hits that and not the Ghost) but a DA could do it up to 4 times sans upgrade, which could kill your Medic and your Vessel. I apologize for my constant reference to P, it's what I play and it seems like one of the big focuses of this argument. I'd also imagine the APM and attention necessary would make this a difficult idea to execute at lower levels. Controlling a Terran ball and making sure your Ghost lives is not something many players probably could do effectively I'm sure if they weren't some type of pro, especially if your enemy is putting on pressure. Basically, just because you can pull it off sometimes doesn't make it viable, unless you do it consistently at high levels of play. Fun yes, but maybe not the best way to win. Although fun may be all that matters in the end to some people. And we could go back and forth saying "If this, then that," so a replay would be nice. EDIT: And this be my first post. I've read a lot of TL and I need to pop that cherry...Uh...Yeah... | ||
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Fyrewolf
United States1533 Posts
Part of the point is not necessarily to do a completely stealthy attack, as a lone ghost cloaked trying to nuke isn't usually very effective. These strategies are about making the ghost as difficult to get to and kill as possible (units/mines in way that get targeted before a cloaked ghost will, driving off detection, cloaking ghost, healing ghost, dmatrixing IF necessary, covering ghost, etc). As said before, Spell Defense is one of the best things out there, and makes nuking extremely hard, pretty much not worth it. Psi Storm and Stasis are much, much better than Feedback for this, and DA's aren't often seen. Maelstrom could also be used, but that's a very limited spell on an underused unit v Terran also (I would like to see more DAs used in any games). Nukes CAN be defended against, but since it isn't widely used, people aren't used to the proper counters for it and setting up the proper defenses. + Show Spoiler + back in the day Sun Tzu wrote: Attack where your enemy is weak and you are strong. The scouting issue is by far the most important. I get ghosts quite often v Protoss for Lockdown, so they may end up expecting a nuke. More importantly is the scouting that I do to check out the defenses of the area I want to assault, throwing down a scan will show me if there are HTs, canons, and how many Obs are in the area. If there is a lot of detection or spell casters, then I don't attack there and switch to nuking a different spot in a multi-attack. If the enemy has every position well covered, then I have to hold a nuke in my back pocket for later, but there is usually an opening somewhere around (or I can make one somewhere, Obs are weak and go down quick, and lone spell defense can be EMPed for example). I don't ever have problems with running out of scans when I have multiple Comsats though, and while I do expose a vessel to attack, there is usually more than 1 in play, Dmatrix has good range and the vessel can fly away or in circles while I supplement the area with a scan. Not every player has openings for nuking, it's not always possible, but I've been trying to help people in how to do it where it is possible. The cost of Nuking is high if it fails, but as the game progresses the cost is overall less (extra CCs for silos, several ghosts, etc.) If I already go ghost, the cost boils down to researching cloak(if I don't have it), building silo, building nuke, and any units that I sacrifice in the nuke assault. Nuking is definately a late-game strategy because of the cost and time required. Unlike most people, I'm not one who would rather have a few extra tanks/vults, but rather have more spells and micro my units better, but that's just me. I think spells change battles dramatically. Most people would rather have some Psi Storms than more goons/zeals, so I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from on that note. You are right that pulling it off only sometimes isn't good enough, but that's why I restarted the discussion on how to pull it off more effectively. I find it interesting that it forces the players attention to it. If I'm sure my nuke is safe for at least a few secs I can outmicro in the other battles to hurt the enemy there, or choose to defend my ghost, while he has to try to stop the nuke. If I F'ed up and my nuke assault looks like its going to fail, I can still try to win the other battles going on and come out ahead. And yes it is fun. I think the point of a game is to have fun, not necessarily to win (remember shooting scientists in the face in goldeneye? I failed that mission so many times, but it was so fun), so sometimes I play a lot of games differently than most people, but I'm not usually like that in starcraft. Again, I really appreciate your post, it was very good and a great first post, and I hope I've answered your questions. I'm sorry that I won't even have the ability to post any replays for a while even if I had any. Sorry about the length of the post too. I play Protoss, Terran, and Random; I've had SC since it first came out and played way, way too much for many years (6 or 7), and I was on and off for a few years after that and now started playing it a lot again since the beginning of last year to get ready for starcraft2. | ||
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ZERG_RUSSIAN
10417 Posts
The burden of proof is on you here, not us. | ||
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3FFA
United States3931 Posts
On February 21 2010 21:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote: So basically what you're saying is that you don't have any replays of this happening successfully against good people? The burden of proof is on you here, not us. Pawnage. ^^ | ||
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