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This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section, this are my Thoughts why we shouldn't use nukes as a mainframe Strategy, please comment and share thoughts
First we should calculate timings,Obs,Cloak,Dropship, and what will nuke usage be?, pure harassment?, mind games?, because certainly it won't be "End Game Strategy".
If its for Harassment, I think its a lot better to use 4 vultures, with a dropship, in almost every way, lets say you kill from 6 to 8 probes with 4 vultures and then you lose them, so lets say you laid all the 12 mines you get, then kill 6-8 porbes meaning from 300-400 minerals PLUS rebuilding them and mining time. Lets Say 12 mines 600-700-ish(-300 of your vultures) minerals and 20-30 seconds that you mine more than you opponent. Now that is pretty effective harassment, and it can all come from the regular buildings you will use as Terran, Facotry+Starport.
If you use Nuke you MUST kill the expansion to make it cost effective, beacuse probes WILL BE moved, making your nuke only kill a nexus and maybe pylon gas, if you're lucky enough you might get the Cybernetics Core, but it depends on the position it is so lets say most of the time you just get Pylon+Gas+Nexus, so 600+Rebuilding the nexus, and maybe supply stuck, but as I said before you MUST make it work, because if you throw your Nuke and your ghost gets sniped you will LOSE 200/200 nuke +25/75.
Since Nuke isn't a "End Game" Strategy, the best way to use them would be as Upgrade Terran, because you could time your covert Ops to star right when your 2-1 upgrades are at 1/4 done, and you should have the Vessel already out incase of some 2 base arb play, then you could add the Silo at your 3rd and start Cloak/Ghost/Dropship, and if everything goes according to planed you kill an expansion, by this time I think your 2-1 upgrades will be finishing or will have finished like 10 seconds earlier, so it would be "Ideal" to push at this time,of course since you got more tech you might have 2-3 factories less than you would want, making you factory number 7-8 and making your 2-1 timing a little less DEADLY, but since he probably will be at the same number or less bases you are and you could out produce him, or just take map control, and play less aggressively, this to me is the most "effective" way to see nukes in TvP,
But this still seems very risky, because if your nuke really didn't work, you will end up way behind, since you got spells+add ons, that could've been more factories ending up in more units for a stronger push. So your position would be Less units, less factories, and your regular Protoss will be expecting a lot more units and better macro from your "style of play", so basically, if you lose your nuke, you pretty much lose the game.
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.
But you never know, should give it a try XD
Mod Edit: Don't bold your entire post
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Nukes:
Expensive, and large tech tree
Takes forever to make
Easily preventable as it takes way too long to land
Ghosts have crappy hit points
Late game PvT has lots of observers
Doesn't kill much
Did you really need 5 paragraphs to explain something thats been obvious for years?
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Teching to nukes late game is a joke
just spend all of that money into making more tanks + vults
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Well as far as I know nuking has only been proven to be effective at a very high level if you just happen to be BoxeR, a nuke means not having that extra scanner for cloaked units, but it means a more fun game
I wonder if it could be a viable counter to fast 3rd, will investigate...
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On November 26 2009 06:12 atm0sphere33 wrote:
Nukes:
Expensive, and large tech tree
Takes forever to make
Easily preventable as it takes way too long to land
Ghosts have crappy hit points
Late game PvT has lots of observers
Doesn't kill much
Did you really need 5 paragraphs to explain something thats been obvious for years?
You forgot about how nukes take away a scanner. That is a HUGE deal in any point of any game.
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Dont forget it costs you a scanner too
Although I feel unsure about why it would be any better in SC2
Does it clear mines? it might be useful in TvT, but thats pretty much it, oh and it stops mining for less time than a vulture drop...
I bet it was awesome at first at blizzard HQ when making SC, because people often wouldnt notice the red dot. (Oh right, no voice to inform you about it in sc2, that's gonna be awesome :D). But once people got experience, they realized that they could check all the viable nukespots and save their workers/army in time...
MAYBE, it could be used to nuke a defiler mound/arbiter tribunal?
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i like how the entire post is in caps lol
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On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol
what?
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Oh god... its just so bold and authoritative... I have to listen to it. You're right nukes are the way to go.
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On November 26 2009 06:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol what?
he meant in BOLD.
Atmosphere summed up the negatives pretty well.
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On November 26 2009 06:52 sixghost wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol what?
Bold, but yeah, I couldn't read the post because it sounded like he was lecturing me like my History instructor, emphasizing whole sentences and topics.
Ghosts are not viable because of how far they are in to the tech tree, how few hit points they have, how you have to research 4 upgrades for them to be as good as they can be, which is still mediocre, and they're gas heavy.
Add to the fact that the first nuke costs 250/250, all subsequent nukes are 200/200, and take as long to build as a barracks (or around there), and it becomes clear just how much trouble a person would have justifying their use. If it could get any worse, if that ghost dies while channeling, you lose 225/275 resources with out doing 1 HP of damage.
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I just played a game using ghosts/nukes/lockdown vs a protoss. I did pretty well and I actually managed to lockdown his first arbiter over a turret when he went 2 base arbiter tech. He lost it and it helped me alot. But as the game progressed, it was hard to use nuke effectivly. Also I ended up spending all my gas on ghost upgrades (cloak,Lockdown,Range) and I also got screwed later when I ended up empty of scan energy because the silo took it up.
If I had added more factories and buildt more vessels. It would have been much better for me as I probably would have defended against the recall anyway without loosing to much.
And if you are gonna use nukes. You just have to upgrade lockdown aswell. If not all the ghost cloak as stuff has ONLY been for nukes which is not cost effective at all.
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Noobville17921 Posts
Tbh i think nukes are only good vs Z(one time deal) and vs T(can be used really effectively in TvT)
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On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section,
Well, thats true... but you should ask yourself "Is this a strategy that perhaps has been discussed before at great lengths?" before posting it.
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ghost#Nuke
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[B]On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid.
I know exactly what you mean! + Show Spoiler +Ok, I haven't got the slightest clue.
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Thanks for the link to that vod, awesome game.
If you remember, Leta did something exactly like that to Pure a few weeks ago. It seems really map specific, as in both games the expos being nuked were extremely close to the T's base by air, and had a nice little spot to drop the ghost while being protected by ground.
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On November 26 2009 13:26 Gnarly wrote:
Wow, posted in the wrong thread.
I don't think I saw it mentioned in here, but EMPing and nuking gates would be a pretty effective way to nuke. It's still got the same drawbacks, possibly prone to getting killed easier due to being at the gates, but the lack of detection could make it all the worthwhile.
Nuking gates that have been EMP'ed, you're sure to hit your target, and once you destroy them, the toss will have a bitch of a time to pump out units. Easy (t)rolling? Instead of maybe hitting peons and taking out an expansion, just do what a recall can be used for: destroy bases. Or even take his tech out, instead of gates.
Depending on the situation, though.
ive had this done to me before, the thing is the damage is splash.even if you emp all gateways and stick the nuke in the middle of the gates, youll get like 3 pylons and 2 gateways at most. in the late game, thats littlerally worthless as the psi is probably over 200 anyways and most likely theres no econ to even need those 2 gateways
I think its more of a mentallity thing, nuking someone will just give them wtf face and maybe mess them up a little.
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I think nukes are a huge attention sink for your opponent, they pretty much have to stop whatever they are doing and look for the red dot for several seconds, while you just fire and continue playing.
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Since nukes are not very cost efficient for damaging anything, the best use for them is probably to gain a positional advantage (which would be most applicable in TvT or maybe TvZ). For example, breaking a huge tank line would be a pain in the ass and cost a lot of your own units to have to do it, but nuking to at least force them out of position can let you set up your own tanks in range of their expansion, and then they will be in the same dilemma that you had. The same can be done but probably not as commonly in TvZ for lurkers/sunks (see casy vs jy lol). Against toss I can't really see much use honestly.
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SC makers should've made nukes be able to destroy ANY building 1 shot(at least, those within a certain radius). Then we'd see viable nuke BO's.... how awesome would that be? (this is coming from a terran hating protoss)
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It's funny to see a topic that starts with "[Thought]" and find none inside.
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Nukes could be a good lategame solution tvz. When the zerg is turtling with swarm and nydus it's just impossible to make progress no matter how big your army is. Nukes will kill all burrowed lurkers, swarm or not.
Another possible use is on outsider where it's not uncommon to see 10 or more sunkens close together. They're just to stall the terran push until guardians come out. A nuke will kill them all much faster than tanks. The timing of it might be off though.
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On November 26 2009 14:49 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
It's funny to see a topic that starts with "[Thought]" and find none inside.
I actually believe this topic does have some valid opinions on why it does not work, since it was brought up in a blog a little while ago.
QFT
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I agree with Gnarly.
It's easily arguable why nukes are not useful as a single attack... but why not as a combo? Nukes are great distractions. Sure they cost 250/250 + minus one scanner, and 225/275 per shot, but in endgame stalemate that can come and go in a wasted attack or micro mistake, why not.
Simply put, against an opponent who you know is not one to mess around, hearing that Nuclear Launch Detected will give you a heart attack. You'll spend a couple seconds checking all your bases for that red dot. It will throw you off your game. Especially when you CAN'T find that red dot, you really shit your pants.
... then you realize it was just a diversion and there's an imminent terran push, or a drop, or the last expo gets taken, or you forget about your recall and your arbiters get shot down, forget to swarm and your defilers get irradiated, etc.
Mid-game example:
In the Flash vs Savior showmatch game, you can see Savior's expression as he frantically looks for the red dot... he moves his contain away from Flash's main just in case... then realizes it was on an unused expansion, relaxes, and lets it blow. While Savior was retreating his army, Flash moved out and retook his expo. Although he was still far too behind in economy and unit count (and nuked his own attacking army), it was still a nice try and could have brought him back into the game if Savior made a mistake as well.
edit: Plus, EMP nukes are pimp.
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United States47024 Posts
On November 26 2009 15:55 Not_Computer wrote:
Simply put, against an opponent who you know is not one to mess around, hearing that Nuclear Launch Detected will give you a heart attack. You'll spend a couple seconds checking all your bases for that red dot. It will throw you off your game. Especially when you CAN'T find that red dot, you really shit your pants.
This only really works BECAUSE nukes are unexpected. Learning to respond calmly and effectively to a nuke isn't something that normally works its way into someone's skill set. If it ever became remotely standard, people would simply practice it. It's like getting 5-pooled. D- players freak out and fuck up their game, but by C levels, people can respond to it calmly because they've seen it 5000 times. The weaknesses of nukes are too apparent for someone who's practiced against it consistently to lose any ground to it.
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On November 26 2009 16:13 TheYango wrote:
This only really works BECAUSE nukes are unexpected. Learning to respond calmly and effectively to a nuke isn't something that normally works its way into someone's skill set. If it ever became remotely standard, people would simply practice it. It's like getting 5-pooled. D- players freak out and fuck up their game, but by C levels, people can respond to it calmly because they've seen it 5000 times. The weaknesses of nukes are too apparent for someone who's practiced against it consistently to lose any ground to it.
And then use them until people learn to respond to them. It's the same way how cheese work. People know how to respond but they can still freak out. I've doubt C levels have seen 5000 nukes in their ranked ladder games. It's like getting 5-pooled, even pros use it because pros freak out and fuck up their games.
The whole thing is that nukes will never become standard and that is an undeniable fact. But despite that, why not?
Just a couple months ago valkyries were not remotely standard either. Sorry, overused analogy (hello mind control thread  )
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If you compare nukes to other tech, they are way too expensive, slow, and difficult to use. They are essentially nerfed--they are so weak that they could be significantly improved (cost or build time of the silo, the nuke, the ghosts, whatever) and still go equally unused.
That being said, a nuke is useful when you can kill a lot of stuff with it. Basically you either need to hit stationary targets (in the strange parallel universe where nuking was done, players would learn to move their valuables away from any possible places the nuke would be--hiding the red dot only is useful now because players are completely unfamiliar with anti-nuke tactics because it utterly doesn't matter). Therefore, the nuke only kills buildings, or things you've locked down. But it's unlikely to succeed and it's a one shot. You're better off to have units while you are killing stationary things. In the event that you can keep your opponent from detecting and killing in a certain area you could be using wraiths or tank pushing instead. I think getting a nuke off takes more concentration than several good drop harass attacks.
Now, nuke can be useful when the player can't go anywhere--island maps, or situations where you have them pinned. But really you need to lay multiple nukes AND be able to get them all off, which might be useful sometimes but it's too expensive to really do unless you pretty much could've won already by other methods.
But I'd love to see a pro gamer prove me wrong--try to make a map that favors nuking.
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Nukes are normally quite pointless to make, given the alternatives. The only really good thing is the immense moral-loss your opponent might recieve. But, overall: nukes suck... unless you happen to be  BoxeR.
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The only way to use Nukes without turning the game into a joke is as lategame harrasment option, and I have a feeling we'll be seeing more of what Fantasy did if BW stays alive for a bit longer.
I mean, it's a very powerful distraction tool.
You don't even have to nuke your opponent, just launch the nuke in an empty space and continue your high rhythm game. My thoughts are that even Bisu will miss a macro cyclus when he hears 'nuclear launch detected'.
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nukes are best used while simultaneously attacking the opponent, thus distracting him from finding the dot. you could also nuke the mineral patch, so the dot can't be seen.
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Nukes in a lategame tvz 3base vs 4 base zerg would actually be very strong esp combined with a bio drop. It would totaly nullify the best multitasker for at least 4-6 seconds to move out to ira defilers or whatever your trying to accomplish.
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nuke only if your opponent is red .cit
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nukes cost a lot more...
50/50 gas for add on to science facility.
150/150 for cloak (or 100/100?)
25/75 for ghost
50/50 for nuclear facility
200/200 for nuke..
that's like 500 min/500 gas...
just make sure to factor in that this could be like 5 tanks for gas heavy terran...
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Sweden4353 Posts
i think it can be good in late zvt where both t and z has a strong economy but T needs to break strong points on the map (swarms and lurkers)
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This might sound like a stupid question, but would nuking a recall into your base be any good? When the toss recalls, their army is stuck clumped together for a few seconds, maybe enough time for the nuke to hit the entire thing (10-12 dragoons say). If your army was away, this would make it worthwhile. The downside to this is losing your own buildings, but they would probably die from the recall anyway.
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On November 26 2009 19:45 deconduo wrote:
This might sound like a stupid question, but would nuking a recall into your base be any good? When the toss recalls, their army is stuck clumped together for a few seconds, maybe enough time for the nuke to hit the entire thing (10-12 dragoons say). If your army was away, this would make it worthwhile. The downside to this is losing your own buildings, but they would probably die from the recall anyway.
lol, or in that case nuke your stasis-ed units. then when your units unfreeze, there's nothing to finish them off and they can keep going along on their business.
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On November 26 2009 19:45 deconduo wrote:
This might sound like a stupid question, but would nuking a recall into your base be any good? When the toss recalls, their army is stuck clumped together for a few seconds, maybe enough time for the nuke to hit the entire thing (10-12 dragoons say). If your army was away, this would make it worthwhile. The downside to this is losing your own buildings, but they would probably die from the recall anyway.
Ya, trying that would be very stupid indeed. 
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On November 26 2009 18:55 Cu(oCo) wrote:
nuke only if your opponent is red .cit
doesnt matter if they ctrl-tab to change their color to teal
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On November 26 2009 20:30 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 18:55 Cu(oCo) wrote:
nuke only if your opponent is red .cit doesnt matter if they ctrl-tab to change their color to teal
is shift + tab.
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On November 26 2009 20:32 Cu(oCo) wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 20:30 29 fps wrote:On November 26 2009 18:55 Cu(oCo) wrote:
nuke only if your opponent is red .cit doesnt matter if they ctrl-tab to change their color to teal is shift + tab.
damn. still got it wrong. i wrote alt-tab first, then changed it. i need to play more
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I think they could be viable late game when there are a lot of bases to check and there's the "big ball of units" vs "big ball of units" and no one wants to move out of position.
and like above mentioned it can be a very good distraction and mind games weapon but still, very very situation and map specific.
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200/200 isn't really a huge investment...
even with a ghost, cloak, and nuclear silo
425/475?
throw in an emp, kill some probes (either at the nexus or transferring with your vults)
they can be hugely cost effective.
i don't see why people hate on them..
they're also the most fun/cool looking thing to do ass terran besides possibly erasering 20+ drones
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I thought boxer using it as an anti-swarm was very clever. Defensive swarms = zerg turtle, nukes force them out of position. I think the cost is very overrated (cheaper than losing a dropship with 2 tanks), it's the inability to replace them effectively that is the problem. Toss often lose like a thousand minerals charging zealots into mine fields, so position can often be worth much more than a few hundred minerals.
If toss had nukes, I guarantee they would use them and terrans would complain about nukes being imbalanced. It's not too useful given terran's strength in vulture harass and setting up a huge, immobile ball.
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cant remember how much psi it costs
6-8?
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I remember Boxer doing fast cc ( before rax) on longinus ,into 1 fact then fast nuke. That was quite good strategy because he could destroy totally 2 nexus thanks to some places behind expands that made impossible for any protoss units to shoot down the gost. During the time protoss was busy to not be nuked he was building lots of factories and of course upgrading fastly due to lab investissement. Then turtling to b3/b4 , b4 with 2 gas on longinus. He won quite easily :3-3 ups , vessels..This is viable on maps where u can wall your main with your nat, best exemple is longinus. I could not find the vod but i think it was vs some class b player in proleague.
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On November 26 2009 21:34 igotmyown wrote:
I thought boxer using it as an anti-swarm was very clever. Defensive swarms = zerg turtle, nukes force them out of position. I think the cost is very overrated (cheaper than losing a dropship with 2 tanks), it's the inability to replace them effectively that is the problem. Toss often lose like a thousand minerals charging zealots into mine fields, so position can often be worth much more than a few hundred minerals.
If toss had nukes, I guarantee they would use them and terrans would complain about nukes being imbalanced. It's not too useful given terran's strength in vulture harass and setting up a huge, immobile ball.
Truth be told, if you could time it so that you attack his nat right when he gets swarm, he might think he's safe since he has swarm, but then you nuke the shit out of his army in his nat?
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How about Ghost + Defense Matrix? I think that will help more nukes land
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ghosts have some use against arbiters TvP. If you get 3 gas you can run ghosts in your army and use lockdown as defense. Apart from TvT thats the only cost effective use I can come up with.
I've tried it out and obviously it lets you bash your way through newbies fairly easily, and the ghosts are pretty good for stopping recall later, but thats about it really.
I do think it's possibly cost effective to use them to defend recall.
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Takes a huge amount of psy, 8 (i think), it's easy to spot and kill ghost + easy to save probes if he's not killed it takes 2 nukes to kill a protoss building except for pylon (i suppose) unless you use emp.
It's rly a waste...
Unusable in TvZ O_oa
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I didn't think of a nuke bluff, however I feel like that would ultimately prove effective only because it's a surprise. If it became used more, it would become pretty useless. And it still requires you to have a silo, a ghost, a nuke, and their prereqs--still quite too expensive don't you think?
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On November 27 2009 06:00 Piy wrote:
ghosts have some use against arbiters TvP. If you get 3 gas you can run ghosts in your army and use lockdown as defense. Apart from TvT thats the only cost effective use I can come up with.
I've tried it out and obviously it lets you bash your way through newbies fairly easily, and the ghosts are pretty good for stopping recall later, but thats about it really.
I do think it's possibly cost effective to use them to defend recall.
Stationed ghosts at key recall locations instead of vessels at the same location?
You can use one ghost for each vessel, and you wouldnt need to place mines, since you could lockdown over turrets, the only weakness being a weakness to hallucination.
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Someone asked for maps favouring nuke usage. Of course there already are quite some with terrain asking for it (most recently Match Point with its nukable gas expansion next to the main), but as for hiding the red dot maps can contribute significantly as well: the ashworld tileset provides some tiles with glowing red lava in which a red dot is impossible to be seen (well, maybe after 5 seconds of staring).
Including nukes in timing builds is completely impossible since it's at the very end of the terran tech tree, but the jump to nukes isn't all that big late-game. A nuke attempt by itself is obviously usually futile, but I believe having a hotkeyd ghost in position at an enemy expansion and a nuke ready can turn the tide of a battle.
As it was already mentioned launching the nuke is no more than two or three actions, but searching for the red dot is easily thousands. Using a nuke at the right time in a decisive battle forces your enemy to either stop microing his units / retreat (which likely will cost him a lot of units or even the battle) or lose an expansion worth of workers (or even the whole expansion if you have a science vessel nearby to sneak in an EMP right before impact).
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Nukes are hilarious. I would love to see someone get their bc/carrier army locked down and nuked. Hell, boxer could do it way back in the day (pimpest plays?). I'd love to see some s-class progamer do it to some 1800 elo scrub on tv lmao.
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I think its worth mentioning that nukes in TvZ can kill all the larve at one expansion which could be anywhere from 3-9 larvae. Doesn't sound like much but if you factor it in to damage to hatch, lost mining time it may be worth it.
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On November 26 2009 07:07 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +[B]On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
The other way I see nukes being used is like a pretty gay Protoss style, basically when P's get Arbs and just recall your expos to fuck up your macro, while they take more expansions, but it would be LATE game, and not Mid. I know exactly what you mean! + Show Spoiler +Ok, I haven't got the slightest clue.
Yeah i'm with you, I hate when people just keep typing without any punctuation. Hard to understand, and after re-reading what he said I still dont get it lol.
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On November 27 2009 05:56 r1fl3m4n wrote:
How about Ghost + Defense Matrix? I think that will help more nukes land
Wouldn't that just make the ghost visible? So instead of being not seen its gonna stick out and he wont even need to find the red dot, will just kill the ghost without searching since he will see it.
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Like you've all said Nukes are really only going to hit buildings, they take so long and units move. That said, they don't do enough damage to kill buildings. For example, if you want to take out a Nexus/hatch/cc you need 2 nukes or a follow up attack. If you want to destroy a couple gateways you need 2 nukes. That's a big investment and a big risk, and the payoff just isn't worth that risk.
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On November 26 2009 06:19 YPang wrote:
i like how the entire post is in caps lol
?....
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On November 26 2009 21:50 axel wrote:
I remember Boxer doing fast cc ( before rax) on longinus ,into 1 fact then fast nuke. That was quite good strategy because he could destroy totally 2 nexus thanks to some places behind expands that made impossible for any protoss units to shoot down the gost. During the time protoss was busy to not be nuked he was building lots of factories and of course upgrading fastly due to lab investissement. Then turtling to b3/b4 , b4 with 2 gas on longinus. He won quite easily :3-3 ups , vessels..This is viable on maps where u can wall your main with your nat, best exemple is longinus. I could not find the vod but i think it was vs some class b player in proleague.
Against Superman[Kal], and BoxeR lost that game.
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On November 28 2009 19:50 LegendaryDreams wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 21:50 axel wrote:
I remember Boxer doing fast cc ( before rax) on longinus ,into 1 fact then fast nuke. That was quite good strategy because he could destroy totally 2 nexus thanks to some places behind expands that made impossible for any protoss units to shoot down the gost. During the time protoss was busy to not be nuked he was building lots of factories and of course upgrading fastly due to lab investissement. Then turtling to b3/b4 , b4 with 2 gas on longinus. He won quite easily :3-3 ups , vessels..This is viable on maps where u can wall your main with your nat, best exemple is longinus. I could not find the vod but i think it was vs some class b player in proleague. Against Superman[Kal], and BoxeR lost that game.
owned?
I just don't think it's doable and useful. Otherwise pros would use it, no?
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On November 26 2009 20:40 29 fps wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 20:32 Cu(oCo) wrote:On November 26 2009 20:30 29 fps wrote:On November 26 2009 18:55 Cu(oCo) wrote:
nuke only if your opponent is red .cit doesnt matter if they ctrl-tab to change their color to teal is shift + tab. damn. still got it wrong. i wrote alt-tab first, then changed it. i need to play more
Alt-tab while you're playing is instant win imo.
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cause alt-tabbing in games is always good
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same as queens, it's just too much damn work
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On November 29 2009 01:52 StylishVODs wrote:
same as queens, it's just too much damn work
aren't you the one who came up with the nuke strategy in tvz?
i remember watching replays of a sunken busting nuke strategy that was pretty pimp, and i think they were from you...
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Does nuke work for units under swarm? And if does it work on burrowed units under a swarm?
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On November 29 2009 03:04 alphafuzard wrote:Show nested quote +On November 29 2009 01:52 StylishVODs wrote:
same as queens, it's just too much damn work aren't you the one who came up with the nuke strategy in tvz? i remember watching replays of a sunken busting nuke strategy that was pretty pimp, and i think they were from you...
Yeah;) well I got it from Casy first but remodelled it more into a rush...
But incorperating it into standard play lategame or whatever would be too much work imo.
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The obvious short-term response is: Not everyone is like BoxeR.
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@ OP: Too High risk and too expensive.
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Obviously they're expensive.
It's a game though, have some fun. Make it as potent as possible though, plan it out, not just a gimmick.
Fast nukes in TvZ can demolish a zerg's sunkenline and let marmed storm in to victory. Granted this is very unlikely to succeed (since it is so easy to scout and has a weak follow up), but it's one of the few ways you can actually turn the game by killing a bunch of stationary stuff. Likewise, in TvP you will want to bring along EMP to ensure you 1-hit KO the toss base.
I think nukes in TvT are entirely viable if you need to uproot your opponent from a critical turtled position, and normal dropship distractions aren't getting the job done. Granted cattlebruisers would be nice also (you sort of have to choose one or the other).
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On November 29 2009 06:51 mmp wrote:
Fast nukes in TvZ can demolish a zerg's sunkenline and let marmed storm in to victory. Granted this is very unlikely to succeed (since it is so easy to scout and has a weak follow up), but it's one of the few ways you can actually turn the game by killing a bunch of stationary stuff. Likewise, in TvP you will want to bring along EMP to ensure you 1-hit KO the toss base.
Tanks do that too! Except they're faster, cheaper, more mobile, and stronger at it.
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some guy actually used nukes against me and took out the same expansions. like 3 times. then i got obs. gg. i also had him contained in his main the entire game. 4 base P v 1 base T i think that stands for itself though lol
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When it all comes down to it, just about any tactical/strategic decision is made based on the simple equation of cost vs gain.
As many would know, for example with an early Reaver drop, you want to do enough damage to hurt the economy yes, but you also want to make the investment of the: Reaver/shuttle/scarabs worth it (and some people even take it further sometimes to robo/support bay/reaver/shuttle/scarabs but that's too harsh in my opinion).
When you take this into the equation of a nuke, you need to obviously gain the cost of the nuke; 200/200 (and 100 seconds if you want to take time into account). Then you also take in the cost of the ghost + cloak research; 125/175 (total).
Basic cost so far: 325/375.
Then you need to take into account the possibility that you may need a dropship if the terrain or enemy positioning isn't favourable: another 100/100.
Total cost: 425/475.
Thus we take it back to cost vs gain, you need to gain 425/475 worth of damage to your opponent.
These days given how fast most of the programers are, you generally don't get any of the workers, and, if possible you get most of a resource center.
And then that whole equation comes down to the risk element the others had spoken about... Does the ghost survive long enough? I think if you looked at it statistically at an end-game scenario, where both sides have taken up most of the map (assuming a 4 player map) and there is a lot of micro/macro to focus on - the ghost has a 50-75% chance of getting the nuke out (numbers up for grabs guys I'm just taking a swing in the dark) - but to me... the 50% chance is still kinda ugly, given what you have to pay for, for what you gain.
This, to me, is why they aren't used that often. I would love to see them used more, but as Boxer has said, I do think they need to be worked into a build somehow.
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On November 29 2009 17:09 Duckvillelol wrote:
When it all comes down to it, just about any tactical/strategic decision is made based on the simple equation of cost vs gain.
As many would know, for example with an early Reaver drop, you want to do enough damage to hurt the economy yes, but you also want to make the investment of the: Reaver/shuttle/scarabs worth it (and some people even take it further sometimes to robo/support bay/reaver/shuttle/scarabs but that's too harsh in my opinion).
When you take this into the equation of a nuke, you need to obviously gain the cost of the nuke; 200/200 (and 100 seconds if you want to take time into account). Then you also take in the cost of the ghost + cloak research; 125/175 (total).
Basic cost so far: 325/375.
Then you need to take into account the possibility that you may need a dropship if the terrain or enemy positioning isn't favourable: another 100/100.
Total cost: 425/475.
Thus we take it back to cost vs gain, you need to gain 425/475 worth of damage to your opponent.
These days given how fast most of the programers are, you generally don't get any of the workers, and, if possible you get most of a resource center.
And then that whole equation comes down to the risk element the others had spoken about... Does the ghost survive long enough? I think if you looked at it statistically at an end-game scenario, where both sides have taken up most of the map (assuming a 4 player map) and there is a lot of micro/macro to focus on - the ghost has a 50-75% chance of getting the nuke out (numbers up for grabs guys I'm just taking a swing in the dark) - but to me... the 50% chance is still kinda ugly, given what you have to pay for, for what you gain.
This, to me, is why they aren't used that often. I would love to see them used more, but as Boxer has said, I do think they need to be worked into a build somehow.
Not everything is simply dollars and cents... even if it costs more to do something, it can be worth it if it does more than just mineral damage. For example if you kill tech with it, it could perhaps be worth it since the zerg can't make any ultras or defilers until he gets another one up and maybe you use that opportunity to push in and win. You can argue that there are other ways to kill tech but I'm jsut giving an example of how you can do less than 425/475 worth of damage and have it still be worth it.
Against protoss, instantly killing a base with emp+nuke could possibly be worth it, if your opponent was already at a disadvantage...
In any case, I dislike how people tend to just think that they need to get what they spent out of something, instead of thinking about what other types of damage it does.
When
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If you really want to talk numbers I might add that you'll easily get your mineral investment out of it considering the lost mining time; even if your opponent manages to pull all his workers of his saturated mineral line into safety, he's losing roughly 1 mineral per second per worker, which can easily be around another 100 minerals. So you're mainly spending gas here (and you likely won't get it back since buildings are usually mostly minerals and the few gas mining workers pulled will barely make up for it).
Also note that the actual cost of nukes is closer to 225/275 + 200/200 * number of nukes used throughout the game.
And last, the attention to the game you steal your opponent for a few seconds may not be expressible in numbers but definitely plays to your advantage if you just coordinate the timing of your nuke with a push or a drop.
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atm0sphere33 explains it all lol ^^ and the scanner :L
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The more starcraft progresses, the more room for nukes there will be.
It's a perfectly reasonable late game tactic in my opinion.
It consumes a huge amount of your opponents attention, and by doing that, gives you an advantage in the battles you'll be fighting on the other side of the map.
Nobody want's to lose an expo full of drones/probes. (even if the hatch/nex survives)
So, when you launch a nuke, you can bet your ass that your opponent is gonna switch his attention to the nuke until he finds the dot. A good way to abuse nukes would be to even nuke empty space, and keep doing the standard things while the opponent panicks. Do it 2 times, then 3rd time nuke him for real.
Combining the nuke with a drop, like fantasy showed, is a combination that can't NOT do serious damage.
In short, nuke sucks as a pillar of your strategy.
But it's an awesome "multitasking overloader".
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12 marines, 2 firebats, 2 medics, 1 vessel, 1 matrixed ghost, 1 nuke on sunk line in early tvz = much lulz
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On November 30 2009 07:55 niteReloaded wrote:
The more starcraft progresses, the more room for nukes there will be.
It's a perfectly reasonable late game tactic in my opinion.
It consumes a huge amount of your opponents attention, and by doing that, gives you an advantage in the battles you'll be fighting on the other side of the map.
Nobody want's to lose an expo full of drones/probes. (even if the hatch/nex survives)
So, when you launch a nuke, you can bet your ass that your opponent is gonna switch his attention to the nuke until he finds the dot. A good way to abuse nukes would be to even nuke empty space, and keep doing the standard things while the opponent panicks. Do it 2 times, then 3rd time nuke him for real.
Combining the nuke with a drop, like fantasy showed, is a combination that can't NOT do serious damage.
In short, nuke sucks as a pillar of your strategy.
But it's an awesome "multitasking overloader".
Precisely--1 nuke + 1 ghost + cloak costs less than 2 dropships of tank/vult... in TvP, EMP is researched anyways so the nuke might even be a better harassment option and a better basekiller
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well, nukes are too high up in the tech tree, they are very expensive, they take a long time to make, and if you target the nuke, but the ghost dies before the nuke falls, you just wasted a lot of money that could have been spent on units
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because the moment that nukes become routine, they stop being hilariously laughable.
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Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in.
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As a "multi-tasking over-loader" I think they have potential. Imagine a TvP with the Terran timing his push to take place right at the moment his opponent hears "nuclear launch detected". That could give him a micro advantage for the 2-10 seconds it takes his opponent to find the dot and move his stuff.
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Yeah, late game is it fairly viable, especially when terran is moving his ball out in TvP. it really throws the toss off guard, especially since it is hard to catch a ghost in TvP given observers arent left at every expo.
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On December 01 2009 07:28 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 19:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in. You know, this might actually hold something. Marine range is 5 while mutas are three, but ghosts are 7. And they do full damage, which makes it difficult to pick them off. By the time you're attacking with the mutas, you've probably already lost one.
Ya but Ghosts have no stim, cost 75 gas and take way more tech than marines with stim and range... also if the zerg goes Hydra or links your pretty much done...
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nukes are for boxer to make starcraft entertaining.
on the plus side you can get ghost with lockdown for the late game vs arbiters and a carrier switch
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On November 29 2009 01:52 StylishVODs wrote:
same as queens, it's just too much damn work
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too expensive and less dmg (doesnt kill gates, nexus or hatches in 1 hit without emp)
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On November 26 2009 07:05 meeple wrote:Show nested quote +On November 26 2009 06:05 never_Nal wrote:
This was a response to a blog, but I think it will get more attention in the Strategy Section, Well, thats true... but you should ask yourself "Is this a strategy that perhaps has been discussed before at great lengths?" before posting it. http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/Ghost#Nuke
Woooo my first Liquipedia quote, I wrote the Nuke part. *is proud* :D
If anyone feels like something should be added to Liquipedia, feel free to add it for the future generations.
As for nukes... I'll try experimenting a bit, but it's hard to pull of early, as you spend resources on the tech rather than units to defend/attack. If it fails, you're behind a lot.
The only way I see it viable is if you gain an advantage in early/mid game, and use it in mid/late game to stretch your opponents attention all over the map and attack at the same time, or just bust some defensive line. But that's already been mentioned. ^^
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On December 01 2009 07:28 Gnarly wrote:Show nested quote +On November 30 2009 19:10 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
Actually I kinda take what I said earlier back because I knew a C+ player who used to rush ghosts in TvZ and absolutely RAPE mutalisks. Then usually he'd end up nuking your sunk line to m/m/ghost/sci his way in. You know, this might actually hold something. Marine range is 5 while mutas are three, but ghosts are 7. And they do full damage, which makes it difficult to pick them off. By the time you're attacking with the mutas, you've probably already lost one.
Basically he's rushing sci off of 1 rax and getting an addon while expanding instead of trying any sort of m/m aggression because he predicts a 3 hatch muta build and doesn't need turrets because his m/m is already at his base when the muta timing hits. After he gets (ghost) range started he drops a few turrets to keep his base safe and moves out towards your natural with one scanner and one nuke building. Either you flank his m/m super hard with mass ling/muta or get nuked at your choke and he rushes it with 1-0 m/m/ghost and dmatrix to finish. It's pretty hard to counter because his m/m micro is really good and the only way to stop it is to fight them because lurkers get outranged hard by 1-0 ghost with sight upgrade.
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You guys do know that it's possible to nuke the Corner Expos in HBR from your own base, right?
You aim the dot slightly off target, but the splash will deal enough damage to kill the nex(if combined with EMP) OR to kill the hatchery in 2 nukes.(all workers will die in first nuke, except maybe the farthest mineral patch)
I had some good games vs Z yesterday, the reps are on the other computer.
I use what someone would call a freak strategy of Valks+Tanks+Vultures and play mostly managment style.(the only aggression comes from speed vults)
I take my side of map and make Zerg have one less expo by repeatedly nuking the corner one.
I'm still very bad at executing, but you can expect a good replay within a few days.
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nukes scouts and queens should all be improved imo :p not alot tho just very very little^^
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I'm sure he would approve of this thread:
On a more serious note, this can be pulled out successfully. However, stuff that deals with atomic weapons always have some controversy behind them. Like the HwaSIn incident.
lol
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The topic of this thread is Why No Nukes? but no one has actually gotten it right yet. The reason Nukes aren't used is that nobody knows how to use them right yet. Except for boxer that is. I love using nukes, but they are very difficult to use correctly. If you do use nukes correctly, they are totally the best thing for sheer killing power, on buildings or units.
They can be use to overload the oponnent, true, but if he keeps his cool it doesn't quite work so well (though a strong push in 1-2 places and 1-2 nuke drops with enough support are quite hard to defend, and it's nice to see 3 bases go down at once.). As such, Nukes require Very good scouting to use. Protoss are probably the most effective targets for nukes, Terran can be vulnerable too, but I almost never go nuke vs zerg as it's too limited in that match. The key to using nukes is that ghosts are not meant to be alone, even though they can cloak. The cloak is meant to make them extremely hard to hit, which is even more true when there are support units with them that become the default targets.
I usually don't need more than 2 comsats anyway If I have vessels in play. Nukes do cost a significant amount of resources and time to get too, but ghosts have more uses, especially vs Protoss. Lockdown affects all Protoss units save Templar and Zealots, is a good counter to Arbiters, and lasts a full minute on normal speed, making it the longest lasting spell (even more than stasis, and you can damage them), so I go ghosts vs Protoss alot, and already have them in play by the time I would want to go nuke. Against Protoss with unit support, ghosts can be extremely difficult to kill before the nuke lands, as science vessels will detect observers for your support units to kill very quickly, and can dmatrix the ghost if he does get spotted and attacked, and a medic can heal the ghost too (Flare sucks though, not worth it to blind instead of kill); all this together means that the nuke is almost sure to land (I land them like 85-90% like this). Even if your entire force gets destroyed but the nuke lands it is well worth the cost.
Nukes can completely erradicate a players Gateways (or other production facilities), tech, or supply, and completely cripple the opponent in one swoop. I used 2 nukes in a game to completely obliterate someones main including a lot of tech and supply, and 3-4 Facts, leaving only 2 depots on the edge (the range of damage actually goes up if you use multiple nukes). Losing 3-8 Gates or Facts will pretty much result in an overwhelming advantage. 2 Nukes at once are much more effective than 2 nukes spaced out. This does cost a lot more investment for extra supply, money, silo, etc., but multiple nuke silos mean faster nukes if you do launch only 1 at expansions and use EMP, but multiple silos is definately for late game, and 1 Nuke+EMP can work until then. Nukes can be used on armies too, but it's not as good as vs buildings in my opinion. Siege Tanks can be vulnerable though, as they take a long time to move and can be locked down beforehand, also really good if you flank with a few units to intercept the ones that flee.
One problem is that I end up making a medic or two to support the ghosts, but the medic doesn't really have much other use for the match. Another problem is you have to watch out for Psi Storm defense, but you can EMP HTs in advance. The Main Problem I run into when I use nukes is they cost a Lot of Supply, having to have an extra depot for every nuke can mess with your army size and macro, but if people can practice and find good builds nukes will be very viable. Anyways....
1. Support your ghosts, and they will be much much stronger and live to land the nuke.
2. Ghosts can lockdown too so they have more use than just nukes. I usually already have them v Protoss, whether or not I end up actually going for nukes.
3. Nukes can cripple Production, supply, or tech, and should be used for that purpose, (softening up defenses can be good too, but not anywhere near as good as the other uses)
4. If using Nukes to overload your opponents attention, make sure he is already overloaded before launching. Otherwise it won't be effective against a good player who keeps his cool. Make an army push in 1-2 places with 1-2 nuke drops to ensure it.
Follow these simple steps and Nukes can become gamewinners for you too. Enemies will shit their pants when all their gates/facts detonate, and practically end up gg as soon as they hear those 3 little words.......
P.S. I apologize for all the bold, but it's a long post, so I wanted to make my points clear for people.
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Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.)
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On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.)
Canceling the nuke will only save your ghost, the nuke will have already been used.
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On February 19 2010 02:29 d(O.o)a wrote:Show nested quote +On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
Aside from harassment, I suspect nukes are best used for positional advantage with a Terran mech army, as a way of forcing the opponent to rush forward and engage (to kill the ghost) or to clear his ass out of the area so you can move in. (Might also be effective for preventing flank attacks. Bear in mind that Terran can cancel the nuke if he wants to.) Canceling the nuke will only save your ghost, the nuke will have already been used.
Canceling the nuke will also stop the area from exploding, which means Terran can nuke areas where he has some units/turrets/mines, and cancel it (costing him 200/200 + build time, yes) if Protoss doesn't move in. (The idea in mind was covering a flank with mines + nuke while the Terran army moves forward, and canceling to save your mines and any turrets you may have left in place if the Protoss stays back.)
Nukes eat a lot of supply, though. If you're not using ghosts for Lockdown it's probably a terrible plan to use them for nuke.
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On February 19 2010 02:11 Severedevil wrote:
Reviving this thread why?
I revived this thread to point out how to use nukes so that they land (supporting ghosts effectively), and how to use nukes most effectively (base/mobility killing).
Nukes can be used on armies, but both Terran and Protoss build and rely on large amounts of production facilities to replenish their armies quickly, and most people group them together for ease, and this makes them very vulnerable to Nukes.
If you spend some resources and a relatively small support army to wipe out 4-6 of their 8 Facts/Gates, they still have their army, but cannot replenish them quickly anymore ( If you assault an expansion at the same time and weaken their econ (possibly luring their army away too) they suffer a major setback that is nearly impossible to come back from, as your production facilities will vastly outnumber theirs, possibly even 2 to 1 even if your army is slightly weaker from the tech and sacrifice of launching nukes. The econ blow from the expansion assault makes it even more difficult for them to rebuild. Taking out their tech and supply to keep their abilities and units low is also useful, but not quite as much.
With twice as much production as your opponent, it's hard NOT to steamroll them. Just keep your macro up and base defense decent enough, and nukes can be gamewinning blows to the enemy.
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I only watched starcraft, but did not play starcraft. So I do not know the technical aspect of games and how viable it is.
But I'll just share my view as a fan of starcraft anyhow. hahahs.
Nuke is high damage AOE which is very high cost, high tech and hard to execute nicely.
Maybe, more suitable for creative play? Boxer is creative, YA!
It is not a straightforward weapon because on paper it is not a good idea to use nuke when you had other cheaper and better options.
Maybe there are times your game sense tells you "Hm...at this moment it might be better to use nuke after all."
I don't know, maybe opponent is good in vesus Terran and you need something out of the box to win?
When all things fail, just nuke ahahahas.
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with the new observer blind thing going on, perhaps that opens up a chance for more nukes to be seen.
but i still doubt it will become prevalent. maybe we just get to see it a bit more frequently from boxer and fantasy, and a few other daring terrans
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Um... sure if you can take out 10 gateways, its good, but how are you getting ghosts into the middle of the protoss' base with plenty of support? You have either rolled him already and walked your slow moving immobile as hell mech army up there, so you don't even need the nukes to win. OR you have dropshiped him in, but no competent protoss will let 1 ghost 3 vultures/golies a medic and a vessal nuke him.
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Nukes launch pretty quickly, actually. The only thing you need to do is stay alive until then, I usually use the support group as more of a suicide group, since the nuke will take out everything anyway. They point is to start an assault somewhere else to distract them, and then have a few units to keep drive away detection and absorb fire for about 15 secs while the cloaked ghost does its job, and Dmatrix if necessary to buy the extra time. 3-5 dropships of units is enough to buy the time needed depending on where you strike and defenses, which is why scouting is important as to approach vectors and placement. 3 dropships can fit 2 tanks, 4 gols, 3 vultures, a medic and a ghost for example, or anything else you want, and bring a vessel with them, then retreat the dropships and use the vessel for detection/dmatrix/emp before it runs too. As long as you can keep detectors away long enough, it doesn't matter if you lose the units. You can use more dropships to bring in a bigger force if necessary. Nukes aren't always an option if there is no good approach into the base and no good spot to nuke from, but you can use their own simcity to your advantage to keep their units at bay
All you need to do is drive off detectors for a short time. If I lose the units I really don't care, as long as the nuke goes off. Your main army distracts your opponent elsewhere FIRST, before nuke targets and rapes them. The key is to just buy time. (I use it really effectively like this)
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A D-matrixed marine with a medic is basically impossible to kill unless he has half a control group of units there all attack it.
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On February 20 2010 01:39 dyos wrote:
A D-matrixed marine with a medic is basically impossible to kill unless he has half a control group of units there all attack it.
Kill the medic 1st. Then it's easy. Unless you have 7 medics 1 dmatrixed ghost? but dmatrix also cancels out cloak
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D-matrix the medic, cloak the ghost. Blind all detection coming in.
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A nuke launches in only 14 sec (+3 secs after targeted ends to land). Even 3 medics with a cloaked ghost and support units against detectors will easily last that long, provided that you plan your attack well with scouting and distract the enemy. (do you target the medics first, or the ghost? too late, your dead. multiple medics are ridiculously strong anyway.)
Dmatrix is really only necessary if you find that you don't have the firepower to drive off many detectors, or Comsat is used. It is possible to take out a small group of support units with 3-5 medics and a ghost or two with, even with the Dmatrix, but not before the Nuke launches and lands. Extra ghosts can confuse the enemy and lockdown too, but I rarely waste them like that unless I'm sure I can get them out after. If you like mines and don't mind wasting them (I don't use them) you can block incoming troops using them, but they'll end up be destroyed by the nuke.
If you really need to, you can even hover your Vessel or Dropship over the Ghost so he Can't Target Them!!! (nearby ebay/rax are usually too slow) Protoss hover shuttles over HTs and use hotkeys to storm, why can't Terran?
Between the time to leave the main battle to look for the launch, bringing in detection or scanning, bringing in units, possibly getting through mines if you're into that, and targeting the ghost, it is quite easy to buy those 15 secs you need especially if the ghost is supported, cloaked, dmatrixed only if necessary, and/or covered and untargetable manually.
Between all the things you can do to hinder the enemy, if you can't buy more than enough time, then work on your Terran micro and scouting, cause I have no problems even without doing everything I can on the list.
Scouting is key to finding the right place.
[Edit] Someone suggested dmatrix on the medic too. Multiple medics are already hard enough to kill, so it's not necessary really, but if detection is not blinded(flare really sucks and is usually not gotten), and the ghost is not covered/dmatrixed already, and you have the energy to spare, this makes it nigh impossible to kill the ghost before the nuke launches. Extra energy is the only limiting factor for that. You could probably buy almost enough time for 2 nukes that way if you replenish dmatrix, but you should be launching them at the same time anyway.
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Too much theory. If ur wondering why no nukes just go play a tvp and try it out and you'll see exactly why it fails. OTher than tvt where u can make tank lines move nukes are just a humiliation tactic
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I'm a fan of late-game 6 marine, 1 medic, 1 ghost drops in TvZ. I never do them without first taking the zerg's attention. He's busy trying to get position on my push, or rushing to save an expo from 12 mnm, and then he hears the nuclear strike warning!
I kill overlords in the area with the marines and/or use them to soften up buildings so the nuke can kill them. They can also delay whatever units he scrambles to kill your ghost. I usually go for a clump of tech buildings.
Sneaky tricks >:-)
-If any of his buildings are damaged, their bleeding makes it hard to spot the red dot.
-If you hide a ghost behind an extractor, he's hard to target.
Of course, I'm just a D player, so against better zergs, I dunno how well this works.
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someone suggested ghost +medic with variation of d-matrix
isnt the medic will make it obvious where his location ghost ) is
hence easlly countered with statis!
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Sea.Really vs Sea (and other players)
Canata vs BeSt (and other players)
BoxeR vs KilleR
BoxeR vs Nal_rA
possible other Boxer's but idk
anyways those are the games I remember from the top of my head
ahh yes and a statis or storm can easily kill the nuke, stasis can be provided without detection if your opponent is able to see the blur or remember where you are
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Spells are the best counter to nukes (and pretty much everything else), but that's why scouting is so important. EMP and Lockdown are both effective counters to Arbiters. Psi Storm Defense is the most difficult to break into in the first place, making nuking very hard, but EMP could also be used to deplete HT energy just before moving in (though its really just better to attack something else entirely in that case). While the ghost is cloaked, it doesn't actually have to be next to the units or the medics right away (the units should be able to move to block though), only after you fail at driving off detection is when the medics are necessary, and the dmatrix. Multiple ghosts can confuse the enemy, but not usually worth it unless you think you can get them out after.
You should always be distracting the enemy with an more than one thing elsewhere first (like an attack and another drop) before nuking. It's not hard to buy that much time in a game though, and most people rally troops away from production facilities, but if there is some good spell/detection/unit defense you aren't strong enough to neutralize, then don't attack there, that's like purposefully running into lurkers you know are there without detection. Nuking when the enemy is paying attention and well defended is suicide, scout the viability of it first, then take all the steps needed to hinder him in attention and defense of the area (which are detailed in previous posts). All you need to buy is about 15 secs, but if your scouting shows it's not viable, then do something somewhere else instead.
[Edit] Thanks Trinimasta for providing some games (haven't seen those specific ones though). Most of the things I've talked about are my strategies I use in my games (other than mines, I don't use them), but I know that the pros can do it much better, especially seen Boxer use a lot of these techniques in his Nuke strategies. Nukes don't come up in pro games a lot, and probably people aren't used to countering them because of that, but they do get landed on pros, proving that it can be done even on pros and is viable at times, and I hope I've explained how to do so effectively throughout this thread. [/Edit]
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On February 20 2010 01:54 KawaiiRice wrote:
D-matrix the medic, cloak the ghost. Blind all detection coming in.
You're missing steps:
1) Pick protoss
2) Tech Mind Control
3) Mind Control Defiler
4) Mind Control SCV
5) Tech Nuke
6) Dmatrix the medic
7) Cloak the ghost
8) Dark Swarm the ghost and medic
9) Float a barracks over the ghost and medic
10) Blind all detection coming in
11) Land nuke and make their buildings have like HALF HP!!
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I remember a game where a terran went all vulture and teched up to nukes and destroyed a protoss.
+ Show Spoiler +Oh wait that was fbh verses some battle.net noob
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I completly agree with Fyrewolf on this issue and would have posted something similar if he hadn't. Of course you are going to lose a lot ghosts/nukes if you try to dropship or run them in cloaked a lone and hope you get that nuke off.
I usually have a couple of ghosts in my group anyways for their lockdown ability, because if you do need it, you REALLY need it. Also, when you get to their base, you probably are either worn down from a battle, or are about to get attacked because you sneaked over. If he has any kind of turtle up, the nuke will take care of it nicely. That row of cannons and a pylon or two are quickly disposed of, including any forces he had in his base he was sending out to greet you. This is especially nice when when the cannons are at the top of a hill or ramp where you sight is limited.
Late game, your probably have a pile of cash if you have 3+ expo. At least, you should have enough that the cost of a nuke or two isn't going to be a significant cost. Trying to tech early to nukes will, I agree, cost you to many early units, but late-mid to late game, the relative costs starts to shrink rapidly, especially if you already have many of the buildings and units built.
Ghosts are usefull in their own right when sent in with a push, and having the nuke is just icing on the cake. The nuke just helps you do what you were going to do anyways, faster, which is to blow shit up. If you are lucky, you can lockdown and nuke carriers, which will cost them big, and probably piss them off something terrible.
I destoryed 7 carriers once with a nuke because he couldn't find the dot, and he got so mad the gg, even though he wasn't out yet by a long shot.
No unit or ability in this game is useless. Just becasue you can't personally see a use for it, doesn't mean one doesn't exist. I think the problem is that people asume it should be some, main base killing, super power, gg weapon of mass distruction, when in fact it is just one tool on your tool belt. It would be stupid to think a lone ghost with a nuke can do significant damage to any competent players base, but if you use their power as part of your attacking force, then you have something in your back pocket.
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Finally, someone understands the point I've been trying to make and agrees with me. I've constantly stressed that Nuking is not the only thing you should be doing in every post here. It is merely one tool, and won't eliminate the need for everything else you should already be doing. It is however, one of the most powerful spells in the game. It can destroy huge swaths of territory in a single quick strike, making tactical nukes very useful. And as shown in previous posts examples, those strikes can be powerful enough to be game changing (i.e. destroying lots of turtle base defense, lots of high level units like carriers, severely cutting enemy production capacity of units, supply or tech). Nuke is a good weapon for sieging the enemy (as in outranging the enemy, not specifically the tank), and late game, it is very powerful. Even if you don't use them a lot, the threat itself is extremely powerful. (a good example of threat is being unable to move out right away because mutas are in play and will rape your base when you do, giving zerg an advantage without necessarily being stronger)
Also, it is much easier when doing multiple attacks to make one of those attacks be a supported nuke attack, as it is difficult and expensive to split an army into 3-4 assaults. Compared to what it would take to devote part of your army to a successful multiple assault, it costs relatively less in support units/cost late game, and forces their concentration to stopping a nuke, allowing you to overwhelm multiple expansions even if it fails. If you have multiple nukes, while they are better together, you can launch in multiple places while making other assaults with your army, the enemy will almost always lose a lot somewhere, as he will devote most of his attention to stopping the nukes, and likely won't be able to stop one of them, and your main assault, and possibly not another drop you've made elsewhere. Nuking is never the only thing you should be doing, but it is one of the most powerful things you can do.
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Plus ghosts die in two shots to vults...
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On February 21 2010 07:55 Froadac wrote:
Plus ghosts die in two shots to vults...
Dude, what are you talking about?
Ghosts don't die in two shots to vultures. They have 45 hp (3 hits), they're going to be cloaked, there should be units in the way, there should be a medic nearby (though not very useful against vultures), and a dmatrix should go off as soon as you see the ghost in trouble.
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On February 21 2010 05:13 Fyrewolf wrote:
Finally, someone understands the point I've been trying to make and agrees with me. I've constantly stressed that Nuking is not the only thing you should be doing in every post here. It is merely one tool, and won't eliminate the need for everything else you should already be doing. It is however, one of the most powerful spells in the game. It can destroy huge swaths of territory in a single quick strike, making tactical nukes very useful. And as shown in previous posts examples, those strikes can be powerful enough to be game changing (i.e. destroying lots of turtle base defense, lots of high level units like carriers, severely cutting enemy production capacity of units, supply or tech). Nuke is a good weapon for sieging the enemy (as in outranging the enemy, not specifically the tank), and late game, it is very powerful. Even if you don't use them a lot, the threat itself is extremely powerful. (a good example of threat is being unable to move out right away because mutas are in play and will rape your base when you do, giving zerg an advantage without necessarily being stronger)
Also, it is much easier when doing multiple attacks to make one of those attacks be a supported nuke attack, as it is difficult and expensive to split an army into 3-4 assaults. Compared to what it would take to devote part of your army to a successful multiple assault, it costs relatively less in support units/cost late game, and forces their concentration to stopping a nuke, allowing you to overwhelm multiple expansions even if it fails. If you have multiple nukes, while they are better together, you can launch in multiple places while making other assaults with your army, the enemy will almost always lose a lot somewhere, as he will devote most of his attention to stopping the nukes, and likely won't be able to stop one of them, and your main assault, and possibly not another drop you've made elsewhere. Nuking is never the only thing you should be doing, but it is one of the most powerful things you can do.
Will you stop underlining everything?
Landing a nuke doesn't win the game. Landing a nuke puts a hatchery or a nexus/cc at like 1/3 health. WHOA.
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Underlining helps bring out main points in a long post, don't like it then kiss my ass. I've been stressing that nukes aren't the only thing you should be doing, and don't replace all the things you should be. Try reading posts before you make a response, especially since the underlined parts are those exact points that nukes aren't everything.
User was warned for this post and his general posting behaviors in this thread
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On February 21 2010 08:36 Fyrewolf wrote:
Underlining helps bring out main points in a long post, don't like it then kiss my ass. I've been stressing that nukes aren't the only thing you should be doing, and don't replace all the things you should be. Try reading posts before you make a response, especially since the underlined parts are those exact points that nukes aren't everything.
I think I speak for a few people when I say that a few replays demonstrating your theory would be nice that are at competent skill levels.
Everything you should be doing sounds like it gets nerfed by how much you have to be putting into this type of attack. All the money and supply is probably better spent on Tanks or Vultures, at least against P and T. Besides you're going to want those extra scans, and since you want to put your Vessel in the way of potential death, you may be susceptible to an Arbiter vP, although the Vessel serves no purpose vT with the Ghost.
Your whole idea removes any surprise element to this. You've made the nuke location a beacon with your units. D-matrix nullifies the ability to cloak, the only reason you should cloak now is to keep your energy low against a counter Feedback. Which goes to the whole scouting issue. If P scouts the Covert Ops or Silo, they should know what's going on. That means more Obs and a more aware player and if they're thinking right, they can devise some sort of counter to this that probably costs far less than your idea and would keep them ahead of you. Feedback not only could kill/severely weaken the D-matrix (assuming it hits that and not the Ghost) but a DA could do it up to 4 times sans upgrade, which could kill your Medic and your Vessel. I apologize for my constant reference to P, it's what I play and it seems like one of the big focuses of this argument.
I'd also imagine the APM and attention necessary would make this a difficult idea to execute at lower levels. Controlling a Terran ball and making sure your Ghost lives is not something many players probably could do effectively I'm sure if they weren't some type of pro, especially if your enemy is putting on pressure.
Basically, just because you can pull it off sometimes doesn't make it viable, unless you do it consistently at high levels of play. Fun yes, but maybe not the best way to win. Although fun may be all that matters in the end to some people. And we could go back and forth saying "If this, then that," so a replay would be nice.
EDIT: And this be my first post. I've read a lot of TL and I need to pop that cherry...Uh...Yeah...
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I appreciate your post, it does have many good points, and you are obviously have a lot of experience and intelligence. Unfortunately, I don't have any such replays saved, I'm not at a computer with starcraft right now, and I'm about to enter the process of moving to a new apartment, so I don't know how quickly I'll be able to post any demonstrations such techniques. Somebody at least posted some names of pro games with nukes, and while I haven't seen those specifically, I have seen these techniques put into practice when pros do nuke, especially boxer supporting his ghosts well, so you'll have to make do with them showcasing examples at the moment. This sort of thing does require a decently amount of APM to pull off, the more the better. I don't claim to be the best player around or anything, I do have my weak points, my macro could be better and I don't use vultures well for instance, but my micro is strong enough and I am able to pull off nukes when I see an opening for one.
Part of the point is not necessarily to do a completely stealthy attack, as a lone ghost cloaked trying to nuke isn't usually very effective. These strategies are about making the ghost as difficult to get to and kill as possible (units/mines in way that get targeted before a cloaked ghost will, driving off detection, cloaking ghost, healing ghost, dmatrixing IF necessary, covering ghost, etc). As said before, Spell Defense is one of the best things out there, and makes nuking extremely hard, pretty much not worth it. Psi Storm and Stasis are much, much better than Feedback for this, and DA's aren't often seen. Maelstrom could also be used, but that's a very limited spell on an underused unit v Terran also (I would like to see more DAs used in any games). Nukes CAN be defended against, but since it isn't widely used, people aren't used to the proper counters for it and setting up the proper defenses.
+ Show Spoiler +back in the day Sun Tzu wrote:
Attack where your enemy is weak and you are strong.
The scouting issue is by far the most important. I get ghosts quite often v Protoss for Lockdown, so they may end up expecting a nuke. More importantly is the scouting that I do to check out the defenses of the area I want to assault, throwing down a scan will show me if there are HTs, canons, and how many Obs are in the area. If there is a lot of detection or spell casters, then I don't attack there and switch to nuking a different spot in a multi-attack. If the enemy has every position well covered, then I have to hold a nuke in my back pocket for later, but there is usually an opening somewhere around (or I can make one somewhere, Obs are weak and go down quick, and lone spell defense can be EMPed for example). I don't ever have problems with running out of scans when I have multiple Comsats though, and while I do expose a vessel to attack, there is usually more than 1 in play, Dmatrix has good range and the vessel can fly away or in circles while I supplement the area with a scan. Not every player has openings for nuking, it's not always possible, but I've been trying to help people in how to do it where it is possible.
The cost of Nuking is high if it fails, but as the game progresses the cost is overall less (extra CCs for silos, several ghosts, etc.) If I already go ghost, the cost boils down to researching cloak(if I don't have it), building silo, building nuke, and any units that I sacrifice in the nuke assault. Nuking is definately a late-game strategy because of the cost and time required. Unlike most people, I'm not one who would rather have a few extra tanks/vults, but rather have more spells and micro my units better, but that's just me. I think spells change battles dramatically. Most people would rather have some Psi Storms than more goons/zeals, so I'm sure you can understand where I'm coming from on that note.
You are right that pulling it off only sometimes isn't good enough, but that's why I restarted the discussion on how to pull it off more effectively. I find it interesting that it forces the players attention to it. If I'm sure my nuke is safe for at least a few secs I can outmicro in the other battles to hurt the enemy there, or choose to defend my ghost, while he has to try to stop the nuke. If I F'ed up and my nuke assault looks like its going to fail, I can still try to win the other battles going on and come out ahead. And yes it is fun. I think the point of a game is to have fun, not necessarily to win (remember shooting scientists in the face in goldeneye? I failed that mission so many times, but it was so fun), so sometimes I play a lot of games differently than most people, but I'm not usually like that in starcraft.
Again, I really appreciate your post, it was very good and a great first post, and I hope I've answered your questions. I'm sorry that I won't even have the ability to post any replays for a while even if I had any. Sorry about the length of the post too. I play Protoss, Terran, and Random; I've had SC since it first came out and played way, way too much for many years (6 or 7), and I was on and off for a few years after that and now started playing it a lot again since the beginning of last year to get ready for starcraft2.
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So basically what you're saying is that you don't have any replays of this happening successfully against good people?
The burden of proof is on you here, not us.
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On February 21 2010 21:28 ZERG_RUSSIAN wrote:
So basically what you're saying is that you don't have any replays of this happening successfully against good people?
The burden of proof is on you here, not us.
Pawnage. ^^
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EPT
![[image loading]](http://www.insidesocal.com/techout/assets_c/2009/05/duke-thumb-480x357.jpg)
