I think they could be viable late game when there are a lot of bases to check and there's the "big ball of units" vs "big ball of units" and no one wants to move out of position.

and like above mentioned it can be a very good distraction and mind games weapon but still, very very situation and map specific.

Bill Murray

United States9292 Posts

November 26 2009 12:27 GMT

#44

200/200 isn't really a huge investment...
even with a ghost, cloak, and nuclear silo
425/475?
throw in an emp, kill some probes (either at the nexus or transferring with your vults)
they can be hugely cost effective.
i don't see why people hate on them..
they're also the most fun/cool looking thing to do ass terran besides possibly erasering 20+ drones

igotmyown

United States4291 Posts

November 26 2009 12:34 GMT

#45

I thought boxer using it as an anti-swarm was very clever. Defensive swarms = zerg turtle, nukes force them out of position. I think the cost is very overrated (cheaper than losing a dropship with 2 tanks), it's the inability to replace them effectively that is the problem. Toss often lose like a thousand minerals charging zealots into mine fields, so position can often be worth much more than a few hundred minerals.
If toss had nukes, I guarantee they would use them and terrans would complain about nukes being imbalanced. It's not too useful given terran's strength in vulture harass and setting up a huge, immobile ball.

Cu(oCo)

Italy358 Posts

November 26 2009 12:41 GMT

#46

cant remember how much psi it costs
6-8?

axel

France385 Posts

November 26 2009 12:50 GMT

#47

I remember Boxer doing fast cc ( before rax) on longinus ,into 1 fact then fast nuke. That was quite good strategy because he could destroy totally 2 nexus thanks to some places behind expands that made impossible for any protoss units to shoot down the gost. During the time protoss was busy to not be nuked he was building lots of factories and of course upgrading fastly due to lab investissement. Then turtling to b3/b4 , b4 with 2 gas on longinus. He won quite easily :3-3 ups , vessels..This is viable on maps where u can wall your main with your nat, best exemple is longinus. I could not find the vod but i think it was vs some class b player in proleague.

Mystlord

United States10264 Posts

November 26 2009 18:44 GMT

#48

Nukes are too gas intensive in any match up to properly use. They're good for the surprise factor, but once the other guy knows you have them, good luck using one...

I can't think of anything else to say right now

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

November 26 2009 19:01 GMT

#49

On November 26 2009 21:34 igotmyown wrote:
I thought boxer using it as an anti-swarm was very clever. Defensive swarms = zerg turtle, nukes force them out of position. I think the cost is very overrated (cheaper than losing a dropship with 2 tanks), it's the inability to replace them effectively that is the problem. Toss often lose like a thousand minerals charging zealots into mine fields, so position can often be worth much more than a few hundred minerals.
If toss had nukes, I guarantee they would use them and terrans would complain about nukes being imbalanced. It's not too useful given terran's strength in vulture harass and setting up a huge, immobile ball.

Truth be told, if you could time it so that you attack his nat right when he gets swarm, he might think he's safe since he has swarm, but then you nuke the shit out of his army in his nat?

r1fl3m4n

United States28 Posts

November 26 2009 20:56 GMT

#50

How about Ghost + Defense Matrix? I think that will help more nukes land

Piy

Scotland3152 Posts

November 26 2009 21:00 GMT

#51

ghosts have some use against arbiters TvP. If you get 3 gas you can run ghosts in your army and use lockdown as defense. Apart from TvT thats the only cost effective use I can come up with.

I've tried it out and obviously it lets you bash your way through newbies fairly easily, and the ghosts are pretty good for stopping recall later, but thats about it really.

I do think it's possibly cost effective to use them to defend recall.

n3m0

Portugal247 Posts

November 26 2009 21:24 GMT

#52

Takes a huge amount of psy, 8 (i think), it's easy to spot and kill ghost + easy to save probes if he's not killed it takes 2 nukes to kill a protoss building except for pylon (i suppose) unless you use emp.

It's rly a waste...

Unusable in TvZ O_oa

old times sake

165 Posts

November 27 2009 00:49 GMT

#53

I didn't think of a nuke bluff, however I feel like that would ultimately prove effective only because it's a surprise. If it became used more, it would become pretty useless. And it still requires you to have a silo, a ghost, a nuke, and their prereqs--still quite too expensive don't you think?

Catch]22

Sweden2683 Posts

November 27 2009 02:10 GMT

#54

On November 27 2009 06:00 Piy wrote:
ghosts have some use against arbiters TvP. If you get 3 gas you can run ghosts in your army and use lockdown as defense. Apart from TvT thats the only cost effective use I can come up with.

I've tried it out and obviously it lets you bash your way through newbies fairly easily, and the ghosts are pretty good for stopping recall later, but thats about it really.

I do think it's possibly cost effective to use them to defend recall.

Stationed ghosts at key recall locations instead of vessels at the same location?

You can use one ghost for each vessel, and you wouldnt need to place mines, since you could lockdown over turrets, the only weakness being a weakness to hallucination.

UntitledQ

Germany99 Posts

November 27 2009 03:35 GMT

#55

Someone asked for maps favouring nuke usage. Of course there already are quite some with terrain asking for it (most recently Match Point with its nukable gas expansion next to the main), but as for hiding the red dot maps can contribute significantly as well: the ashworld tileset provides some tiles with glowing red lava in which a red dot is impossible to be seen (well, maybe after 5 seconds of staring).

Including nukes in timing builds is completely impossible since it's at the very end of the terran tech tree, but the jump to nukes isn't all that big late-game. A nuke attempt by itself is obviously usually futile, but I believe having a hotkeyd ghost in position at an enemy expansion and a nuke ready can turn the tide of a battle.
As it was already mentioned launching the nuke is no more than two or three actions, but searching for the red dot is easily thousands. Using a nuke at the right time in a decisive battle forces your enemy to either stop microing his units / retreat (which likely will cost him a lot of units or even the battle) or lose an expansion worth of workers (or even the whole expansion if you have a science vessel nearby to sneak in an EMP right before impact).

stoned_rabbit

United States324 Posts

November 27 2009 03:40 GMT

#56

Nukes are hilarious. I would love to see someone get their bc/carrier army locked down and nuked. Hell, boxer could do it way back in the day (pimpest plays?). I'd love to see some s-class progamer do it to some 1800 elo scrub on tv lmao.

Nogardeci89

United States113 Posts

November 27 2009 05:29 GMT

#57

I think its worth mentioning that nukes in TvZ can kill all the larve at one expansion which could be anywhere from 3-9 larvae. Doesn't sound like much but if you factor it in to damage to hatch, lost mining time it may be worth it.

GreEny K

Germany7312 Posts

November 27 2009 06:43 GMT

#58

On November 26 2009 07:07 citi.zen wrote:

Show nested quote +

I know exactly what you mean! + Show Spoiler +

Ok, I haven't got the slightest clue.

Yeah i'm with you, I hate when people just keep typing without any punctuation. Hard to understand, and after re-reading what he said I still dont get it lol.

GreEny K

Germany7312 Posts

November 27 2009 06:46 GMT

#59

On November 27 2009 05:56 r1fl3m4n wrote:
How about Ghost + Defense Matrix? I think that will help more nukes land

Wouldn't that just make the ghost visible? So instead of being not seen its gonna stick out and he wont even need to find the red dot, will just kill the ghost without searching since he will see it.

Deviation

United States134 Posts

November 28 2009 04:44 GMT

#60

Like you've all said Nukes are really only going to hit buildings, they take so long and units move. That said, they don't do enough damage to kill buildings. For example, if you want to take out a Nexus/hatch/cc you need 2 nukes or a follow up attack. If you want to destroy a couple gateways you need 2 nukes. That's a big investment and a big risk, and the payoff just isn't worth that risk.