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On October 15 2011 19:48 TehForce wrote:Position Pictures After Re1+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KXeKL.png) 16. Re1 Nxd2 17.Nxd2 ... On 18th move we practically have to jump back with the knight to f3 because he is blocking everything. Black has two moves for free ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i0Mqi.png) 16. Nxe4 dxe4 We have to move back with our knight to d2. Now he is blocking the bishop again and we need to move to c4 which is a good position but black has time to prepare. With Ba6 he blocks c4 and we cant do anything. The knight has no place to go. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Tur25.png) 16. b4 a5 17.bxa5 Nc3 18.g3 Ne2+ 19.Kg2 Nxc1 20.Rfxc1 Obviously not a dream position but i dont see huge problems. black permanently has to take care of our passed pawns and a lot of tactics should be possible. Also there are many lines possible after b4 which are even better for us with a good position for our bishop on b2 or a3. i think the position is above is as bad as it could get and it stills looks even if not slightly better for us.
It is a real stretch to suggest that the third position is the one that looks best. It clearly is the worst of the three. Also, you didn't go far enough in your analysis of the first two moves. Here, I will provide position pictures for the same three moves.
Current Position:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IVp6F.png)
After Re1
+ Show Spoiler +16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2 a5 18. b3 Ba6 19. Bb2![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/yK95C.png) Nxd2 is probably black's best continuation in my opinion. The rest are simple and natural moves. Perhaps we have a better move at the end instead of Bb2, but it's an example of the possibilities. We've managed to uncramp our pieces and achieve a relatively even position here a pawn up.
After Nxe4
+ Show Spoiler +16. Nxe4 dxe4 17. Nd2 f5 18. Re1 (allowing us to play Nc4 without the Ba6 pin winning a piece) Ba6 (preventing Nc4) 19. b4![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Napm1.png) This is a likely continuation. Black really doesn't want us to play Nc4, and he wants to develop his bishop here anyway. This is where the move b4 SHOULD be played and becomes very powerful because he can't undermine it with a5 immediately. We can now jump our knight to b3 perhaps, eyeing the great c5 outpost and opening up our bishop finally. I think this position is great for us and I'd like to hear any alternatives to black's moves you guys think are better here.
After b4
+ Show Spoiler +16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Re1 Nc3![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/egIr9.png) Here, black isn't even forced to take the bishop. He can choose to take it or to keep his knight planted on c3 to cramp our position. I really don't see any good moves or a plan we can follow now. We are on the defensive completely.
Hopefully this analysis is enough to change at least a couple votes. If you disagree with the moves I provided for black, as always feel free to offer up alternatives.
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Okay your d4 line really looks good...
+ Show Spoiler +
... for black T_T.
Even worse than the position you pointed out above: black can play 19. ... Ne2+ because e2 is now secured with his bishop and our rook has no more access to the e-file.
i am still not sure that the game would be lost but it would be a very very tough fight.
on the other hand playing b4 on move 17 if he takes his knight back really looks solid.
i change my vote to Re1
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Move 16 Votes
+ Show Spoiler [Voters] +16. b4: 9 (hype[NZ], mastergriggy, TehForce, ffreak, hp.Shell, GenesisX, Archers_bane, Chezus, indigoawareness, LaXerCannon)
16. Re1: 9 (Malli, dtvu, wuBu, sGs.Kal_rA, lightman, Raysalis, shackes, keyStorm, TehForce)
16. Nxe4: 3 (jdseemoreglass, aphorism, SheaR619)
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omit my vote on Nxe4, going to re analyze for something else.
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After Nxe4
+ Show Spoiler +dxe4 17. Nd2 Ba6 first? since if f5, we can play Nc4 (we have Ne5+ if we get pinned) though I'm not sure if this variation is best choice for us.
As for 16. b4
+ Show Spoiler +After looking at the variation of Nc3, 19. Nf1 Ne2+ is going to be a problem for us since it will give black bishop pairs.
As for 16. Re1
+ Show Spoiler +16... Bb7. I'm a bit curious on what white will play from here.
If 1)17. Nb3 Ba6 18. Nbd2 or Na5 Bd3
2)17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Nd2 f5
3)17. b4 (probably best move) a5 18. bxa5 Ba8 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nd2 f5 21. Nc4 looks maybe okay for white? (not sure)
Other than that, black could just play 16... Nd6 (still need to analyze). As for now, I guess it's between Nxe4 and Re1.
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I think I'm gonna change my vote to Re1.
+ Show Spoiler +Capturing the Bishop is a lot stronger for black than I thought it would be. 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Re1 Nc3 19. Nf1 Ne2+ 20. Kh1 Nxc1 21. Rexc1 Rb5 and I'm not seeing a way out for white. The only exception maybe is Re3 which I haven't spent much time analysing, but I did see some favorable lines from Jd's analysis at the top of the page (lol out of curiosity how do you list someone else's post?) and my analysis here. Honestly, I'm not seeing much after Nxe4 dxe4 18.Nd2 Bb7 19. Re1 f5 and Black has a lot of pieces focused at the kingside pawns. So yeah, I'll change my vote to Re1.
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On October 16 2011 05:25 mastergriggy wrote:
out of curiosity how do you list someone else's post? # button on the top right of the post.
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changing my vote to 16. Re1
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On October 16 2011 06:27 qrs wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 05:25 mastergriggy wrote:
out of curiosity how do you list someone else's post? # button on the top right of the post.
I've been hitting posts right under log in and manually finding my post each time T.T wow that is so much easier.
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Enough movement in the vote recently that it's worth updating the count:
Move 16 Votes
+ Show Spoiler [Voters] +16. b4: 7 (hype[NZ], mastergriggy, TehForce, ffreak, hp.Shell, GenesisX, Archers_bane, Chezus, indigoawareness, LaXerCannon)
16. Re1: 12 (Malli, dtvu, wuBu, sGs.Kal_rA, lightman, Raysalis, shackes, keyStorm, TehForce, wizard944, mastergriggy, GenesisX)
16. Nxe4: 2 (jdseemoreglass, aphorism, SheaR619)
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Getting close to 2k replies and 100k views.
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Ill revote and say 16.Re1. + Show Spoiler +After careful calculation, I think this is the stronger move.; It leaves our pawn in better position for the late game.
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Blazinghand
United States25560 Posts
Hm... this position looks very drawish to me. I vote to Offer Draw. My vote for what move we should make (assuming we don't Offer Draw) is 16. Re1
Cheers!
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On October 16 2011 10:46 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm... this position looks very drawish to me. I vote to Offer Draw. My vote for what move we should make (assuming we don't Offer Draw) is 16. Re1
Cheers!
Hmmm that seems kind of like a double vote. Ng5 hasn't really explained the rules yet regarding voting for a draw, maybe he can clarify that for us. In either case, I don't think the position is a clear draw yet. Voting for a draw with this many pieces still on the board seems very premature.
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On October 16 2011 10:51 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 10:46 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm... this position looks very drawish to me. I vote to Offer Draw. My vote for what move we should make (assuming we don't Offer Draw) is 16. Re1
Cheers! Hmmm that seems kind of like a double vote. Ng5 hasn't really explained the rules yet regarding voting for a draw, maybe he can clarify that for us. In either case, I don't think the position is a clear draw yet. Voting for a draw with this many pieces still on the board seems very premature.
I agree. Honestly, I don't think this is a drawn position and that we are ahead, so therefore we should continue playing. And second, this is an online match, let's play it out to the end regardless.
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On October 16 2011 10:51 jdseemoreglass wrote:Show nested quote +On October 16 2011 10:46 Blazinghand wrote:
Hm... this position looks very drawish to me. I vote to Offer Draw. My vote for what move we should make (assuming we don't Offer Draw) is 16. Re1
Cheers! Hmmm that seems kind of like a double vote. Ng5 hasn't really explained the rules yet regarding voting for a draw, maybe he can clarify that for us. In either case, I don't think the position is a clear draw yet. Voting for a draw with this many pieces still on the board seems very premature. In my opinion, it makes more sense to vote for a move along with the draw offer than to vote for moves and draws separately. Otherwise, what move would be chosen if we all voted for a draw offer that Ng5 rejected? It doesn't seem fair for that to amount to a free extension for our side.
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I think you can just vote for a draw along with your normal vote as it would happen in a real game.
If at least half of the voters vote for a draw I will take it as a draw offer.
I'm also thinking if we could try a 960 Random game for the next match...
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Updated--see my post on the following page.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/APGbB.png)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/cgndZ.png)
