TL Chess Match 4 - Page 99
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Ng5
702 Posts
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lightman
United States731 Posts
On October 18 2011 06:38 qrs wrote: + Show Spoiler [re first line] + + Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] + Suppose instead 20...f5, discovering an attack on the Knight from the Be7. I can't see how White hopes to save it. The Knight has nowhere to run, g3 is useless because the g-pawn is pinned, and Bg3 fails to ...f4. We can grab a pawn with 21. Bxc7, but after 21... Rbc8, we're in the same boat as before: two pieces are under attack and one of them has to fall. As far as I see, we end up losing a piece for two pawns, and Black still has the Bishop pair. ...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6 + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?) This line I like better, but what if instead of your 17th move, Black gets straight to the point with 17...a5? Originally, I thought that we could respond with 18. b5, but after 18...a4 cuts it off, it looks like we'll end up losing the b-pawn. If so, bxa5 seems to be all but forced, although we can stall with Rb1. After 18. bxa5, your (18)...Rhg8 looks quite a bit scarier (18. Rb1 Rhg8 19. bxa5 transposes). ...Rhg8 It's beginning to look to me that + Show Spoiler [move we've been dying to play] + b4 we have to resign ourselves to being unable to stop Black from playing ...c5. b3 I agree with all your analysis. I still think that + Show Spoiler + unless NxN,....b4 should be our next move, but I like your Rb1 too...... I also want to congratulate you and almost everyone else providing analysis and insight for the match. I'm quite amazed that we're only on move 16 and we have 99 pages so far. My match was over in less than 50 pages... I guess maybe because most of the moves were very well chosen by everyone. Keep up the good work! | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
PS- after spending waaay more time than I had meant to on this: someone please take pity on me and look at the below analysis so all those hours I just spent aren't a total waste. There's a lot to go through, but at least you could look at some of it... I did include links to PGN viewers, so at least it's easy to skim the lines here. PPS- In the interest of full disclosure: a friend came over while I was analyzing this, and for a few hours he helped me analyze. He's not an especially strong player, but he was still helpful. I figured it was all right, since in theory he could always sign up to be an official part of the team. + Show Spoiler [analysis: please read!] + The idea of 17. b3 is to hold the position together and give us a bit of room to develop until we're ready to do something more permanent about the b-pawn. Here's some analysis. It ended up taking much, much longer than I had planned, and towards the end I'm afraid that my helpful comments end up petering out as I just wanted to get it all down on paper and go to sleep. Sorry about that. 16... Bb7 17. b3 c5 (obviously not Black's only move, but b3 being a non-forcing move, I was unable to look at all of Black's possible responses. It was hard enough even to thoroughly analyze this one. However, ...c5 is a part of Black's overall attacking plan here, and the following line has Black pursuing his attack as quickly as possible, so hopefully this is at least a decent sample of what the position holds.) 18. dxc5 Bxc5 (18...Nxd2 is also possible, perhaps better) 19. Nxe4 dxe4 (forced, to recapture the Knight) 20. Nd2 f5 (forced, to defend the pawn) 21. b4 Bd4 (the Bishop has to move. It doesn't have to go to d4, but this seems to be Black's most aggressive try: if it goes somewhere else, White has another tempo to defend against the coming attack; also, if it goes to d6, it can be chased by Nc4, and if it leaves the a7-g1 diagonal, the strength of Black's attack is reduced) 22. Rb1 Rhg8 (not forced, but a logical way to press the attack, and I don't see something better. ...h5 is slow, ...f4 allows Nxe4, ...e3 drops a pawn for no reason, ...a5 seems to fail to Nb3, ...Bc3 looks slightly menacing but it helps us develop a Rook to the third rank with tempo and doesn't seem to give Black all that much for it, other moves don't threaten us.) 23. Nb3 e3 (here more prudent moves are certainly possible, but it should be noted that any move that takes the Bishop off the a7-g1 diagonal allows us to trade off Black's light-squared Bishop with Nc5+, eliminating much of the pressure from our position, if we feel the necessity. ...Bd6 may be worth a look, but I chose Black's most aggressive line. Also note that this move will probably be played at some point as part of Black's attack, so playing it without delay is probably Black's most efficient way to press the attack.) 24. Bxe3 Rxg2+ (otherwise 23...e3 was purposeless) 25. Kf1 Bxe3 (Black must do something about the hanging Bishop now. Again, other moves might be possible, but the possibility of Nc5+ must be kept in mind, especially with the g2 Rook defended only by the Bishop). 26. Rxe3 Rxh2 (...Rbg8 can be met by Rg3 [again, the threat of Nc5+ is crucial] and most other moves can be met by Rh3 and/or Nc5+) 27. Rd1+ Kc7 (...Kc8 virtually loses off the bat with Rc3+) + Show Spoiler [27...Kc6] + 28. Nd4+ Kb6 (any return to the d-file loses the Rook to Nf3 dis. ch.) 29. Re6+ Kc7 (forced) 30. Nb5+ Kc8 (forced) 31. Re8#. 28. Rc3+ Kb6 (...Bc6 loses the Bishop to the pin) 29. Rd6+ Kb5 (...Bc6 loses the Bishop immediately) 30. Re6 (forestalling ...Re8, [which would threaten checkmate] while preparing the threat of Re5+) + Show Spoiler [30...Ka4] + 31. Nc5+ Kb5 (forced) 32. Nd7 (threatening both 33. Nxb8 and 33. Re5+ after which Black must sacrifice his Bishop to avoid checkmate). PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [30...Ba6] + + Show Spoiler [30...Rc8 (and most other moves as well)] + 31. Nd4+ Ka4 (forced) 32. Re5 Rxc3 (Black's move doesn't really matter, but this is prettiest) 33. Ra5# PGN viewer + Show Spoiler [30...Rh4] + 31. Re5+ Kb6 (...Bd5 obviously drops the Bishop, ...Ka4 loses to Ra5#, and ...Ka3 drops the b8 Rook to Nc5+, Nd7+, Nxb8) 32. Rcc5 (threatening Re6+) + Show Spoiler [32...Ba6+] + + Show Spoiler [32...a6] + + Show Spoiler [32...Rh6] + 33. Rb5+ Ka6 34. a4 Rc8 35. Nc5+ PGN viewer There are some variant lines here; they all result in Black's losing a piece or an exchange, though. Sorry for omitting them: I'm getting tired of typing... ![]() + Show Spoiler [30...Rg8] + 31. Nd4 Ka4 32. Re5 Ba6 33. b5 Bb7 34. Rc4 Ka5 35. b6 Ka6 36. Ra4 Kxb6 37. Rb5 Kc7 38. Rxa7 Rb8 39. Ne6 Kc6 40. Nd4+ PGN viewer 30....Rd8 31. Rc5+ Ka4 32. Re3 Kxa3 33. Na5+ Kxb4 34. Nxb7 Rd7 35. Rcc3 Rd2 36. Rf3 PGN viewer. This line wins a Bishop for two pawns. The 30...Rh4 lines (which are better) may apply here as well, but I'm too tired to check. PPPS: Thanks for reading! TL;DR: all the lines that I analyzed look very good for us. Edit: Thanks for reading, mastergriggy! Everyone else: no need to read this post anymore: the lines are outdated now that Ng5 has moved. Oh well. Maybe some ideas in them will still be relevant in future, but if so, I'll repost. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 19 2011 02:17 lightman wrote: Thanks for the compliment. As for the next move:I agree with all your analysis. I still think that + Show Spoiler + unless NxN,....b4 should be our next move, but I like your Rb1 too...... I also want to congratulate you and almost everyone else providing analysis and insight for the match. I'm quite amazed that we're only on move 16 and we have 99 pages so far. My match was over in less than 50 pages... I guess maybe because most of the moves were very well chosen by everyone. Keep up the good work! + Show Spoiler + After 16...Nd6, 17. b4 may well be a good move: at first glance it looked all right, although I haven't spent very long on those lines. Hopefully other people have and can fill in the gaps. After 16...Bb7, though, I strongly feel that 17. b4 should not be our next move (and so does mastergriggy). If you agree that after 17...a5, we're forced (within a move or two) to play bxa5, then why would you want to play b4 now? Opening up the b-file right now tends to strengthen Black's attack, from all I've seen. Even if you think that we can survive that, what benefit do you see in b4 over, say, b3? The major benefits of b4 over b3 that I know of are 1) that it prevents ...c5 and 2) that it doesn't tie down our pieces as much to defend it. After ...bxa5, neither of these is true anymore. As for 17. Rb1, I think it's probably playable, but after looking at the position some more, I switched to 17. b3 because of the annoying ...Nc3 (attacking b1) which becomes possible as soon as we push the b-pawn. To eliminate that move from consideration, I'd prefer to have the Bishop on b2 before playing Rb1, which means b3 has to be played first. Just a question of move order. Mastergriggy's suggestion of 17. Nh4 is a tactical idea which looks surprising at first glance, but so far seems to hold up. It's another strong possibility for us, in my opinion. But b4...well, you've heard why I don't like it. What do you see in it? | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
Vote for move 17 starts here. Since you are talking about the next move being obvious if it ever reaches majority I will end the voting round sooner. Say not complete majority, but within a few move radius of majority and having all or close to all the votes. I still won't be able to give my next move before 48-50 hours from now, though. I am going to address a few things in my next post, so stay tuned. | ||
Ng5
702 Posts
Anyway what I wanted to know if there was interest in starting another game. It could happen in an alternating fashion - when it's my turn in one you can discuss the other and vica versa. It would be with switched colours and I'm thing of 960 Random. (If you don't know what that is you can read it here.) Note that it might not happen right now or in the near future (as in next two weeks), but I've been pondering about this for a while now. Or it could also be a different chess variant as well, but I'm afraid my Crazyhouse is not that up to par as I've barely ever played it for more than like... A dozen games. Please PM me if interested or post here with your move. Also if you have suggestions feel free to discuss, just try not to derail the thread too too much if possible. Thanks guys! Cheers, -me | ||
jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Also, I vote 17. Nxd2 | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
Should just make that the next move now. | ||
EnderSword
Canada669 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
jdseemoreglass wrote: Sure, I'd be up for any games you want to play. I was actually interested in a "man vs. machine" game where we try to beat a modern chess engine, of course with either limited time or depth set for the comp. That would allow us to play the opposing moves instantly and not have to wait. Just a thought. I kinda like the idea. Could do that, but it's too exploitable in ways. I mean I can give you and analyze opening lines that will get an engine beaten, but sometimes the most I could tell you why is because it will lead to a position that the engine misevaluate/suck at. Which isn't necessarily a flat-out winning position for us, but one that I know the engine will screw up just from experience. Those games pretty much end in the opening if the opponent is an engine alone without a strong player beside it. Because let's be frank, if you mess up in the midgame from a won position it's not much here or there. So if that happened I would actually suggest more preparation time / long time control for us where we can actually discuss the opening lines for days and days. Well that if you'd want me to participate as well. You would also have to choose an opening book, and I've yet to see a real good one. Fritz's is usually solid, but hugely errative at many points (Two Knight's Game with black, anyone?) and the opening book they give to Rybka that is supposed to be with 'top opening analyzer pro human help' just sucks ass and isn't more than basic openings extended by 2-5 moves told by Rybka (without any real human impact) - and they are quite often bad, too. These are my only issues, but I guess they could be resolved one way or the other. Edit: Hmm... Maybe we could do it in a dual-timeframe. Where first you do your analysis, which I read a few days after and tell my thoughts on, and then we get another round of voting where you can change your votes if you wanted to. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
Also, qrs I looked at your analysis and it was sound as far as I could tell. And Ng5, I'd be completely down for that or for a man vs. computer or whatever the case may be. I just basically love chess ![]() | ||
hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
We can't take with the bishop without losing our pawn advantage. Even though our board position would be better in the short term, I don't think it makes up for the pawn. | ||
Cloud9157
United States2968 Posts
I'm probably only about 1500-1600 USCF rated player, so I'll contribute as much as a I possibly can. | ||
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itsjustatank
Hong Kong9151 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
But I'm open. As long as it doesn't eat up too too much of my time. | ||
mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + After, 17. Bxd2 Rxb2 18. Bc3 Rb3 our position sucks and we lose a pawn. After, 17. Nxd2 we don't lose our pawn. Having a pawn and a good position is always better than not having a pawn and having a bad position. Okay serious analysis time: + Show Spoiler + I kinda want to throw out some ideas about where we go from here. As far as I can tell, black will probably play one of these moves: Rhg8, c5, Ba6, or Rhe8. + Show Spoiler [17...c5] + Personally I worry about what our response after c5 is the most. ![]() I looked at two lines. The first being + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + ![]() One possibly line that didn't look too bad for white is 18. Nf3 cxd4 19. Nxd4 Bc5 20. Nf5 + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() The idea of this line is that we give ourselves an extra move to keep black from mobilizing his c8 Bishop. For example, if he moves his king to uncover the attack on the knight with 20...Kc6 21. Ne7+ forces a Bishop off and improves white's position 20...Kd8 21.Be3 forcing the Bishop off that dangerous diagonal (note, black can't win a pawn from this line, after 21...Bxe3 22. Nxe3 d4 23. Nd4+ or 21...Bxf5 22. Bxc5 Rxb2 23. Bxa7) 20. Kc7 21. Bf4+ drops the exchange. The cons to this line are that black might just leave his c-pawn on with 18...c4 instead which will put us in a bad spot where we must use the rook if we ever intend to develop our Bishop.(the reason why I don't like this line for white). The line would go something like 18. Nf3 c4 19. Re2 Bd6 20. Be3 Kd8 and white doesn't have any space to breathe, while black's second Bishop will soon join the fray. + Show Spoiler [18. dxc5] + ![]() The main line is 18. dxc5 Bxc5, then we have a couple of different choices. Although we can play 19. b4 here, it might not end up being the best move. 19. b4 Bd4 20. Rb1 Rhe8 doesn't look very good for white (alternatively 20...Bc3 also looks pretty bad for white). + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() I'm thinking that 19. Nf3 might not be too bad. 19. Nf3 Rb3 (too prevent b4) 20. Rd1 Bb7 21. Nd4 looks alright. + Show Spoiler [diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Ba6] + ![]() The idea behind this move for black is to active his Bishop. This however comes at the cost of removing his counter to b4, which makes me feel likely that he won't play it. However there are some tricky lines. 18. b4 Rbe8 (threat of Bxb4) 19. Nf3 Bd6 20. Be3 and all the attention transitions to the King side. I think this 18th move gives black a very drawish position imo + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Rg8] + ![]() This is definitely black's most aggressive move in this position. It is almost a taunting move as well, since black can still play c5. I looked at two lines in this position: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + ![]() The idea behind Nf3 is that we free up our pieces and plant our knight on a square where it can help defend the kingside. 18. Nf3 has one major disadvantage though, which is 18...Rb3 19. Re3 Rxe3 20. Bxe3 Kc6 where black has the Bishop pair and I think will eventually win back the d-pawn. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [18. b3] + ![]() I like this move because it prevents the annoying Rb3. The best part is that black can't play c5 anymore, because after 18...c5 19. dxc5 Bxc5 white plays Bb2, 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Kd8 20. Rac1 looks like a vast improvement to white's position. I don't know if it is enough of an improvement though. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Re8] + ![]() This is a move that I think greatly helps black, but for very subtle reasons. It is a less aggressive, almost identical move to Rg8, but now after the 18. b3 Bd6 line, white's rook is under attack. I'm inclined to believe that it shuts down some of the b3 lines, but I don't have analysis to back it up right now ![]() | ||
Malinor
Germany4719 Posts
Regarding your question, I am not interested to play any random chess variante. | ||
Malli
Germany138 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On the plus side, I'm pretty happy to see this move: I think it vindicates our play. The Knight on e4 was one of Ng5's strongest pieces, whereas our own Knights were crowding our position. The only reason we didn't trade Knights long ago was our reluctance to allow Black to occupy e4 with a pawn. Our Knights had been eyeball to eyeball for a while now, but I think the other fellow just blinked. Also, this move gives us an extra few days for analysis of the position, which can potentially be very helpful. As I said earlier, I think we're in a critical phase of the game. We have a slight but potentially telling long-term advantage in our extra pawn, and we need to find a way to slide ourselves into the endgame without losing it. For that reason, my vote is 17. Bxd2. Rationale: On October 19 2011 11:07 Ng5 wrote: Since you are talking about the next move being obvious if it ever reaches majority I will end the voting round sooner. Say not complete majority, but within a few move radius of majority and having all or close to all the votes. I want the team to have the full three days to potentially use for analysis. Therefore, I'm temporarily casting my vote against Nxd2 to stop it from ending our turn early. At the end of the voting period or if and when it looks like further analysis will no longer help us (whichever comes first), I will change my vote to Nxd2. Re shuffle chess: I'd be up for it. No interest in playing a computer, though, sorry. | ||
qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 19 2011 14:03 mastergriggy wrote: I haven't had the chance to go through your analysis yet, mastergriggy, but just as a preliminary note + Show Spoiler +Okay serious analysis time: + Show Spoiler + I kinda want to throw out some ideas about where we go from here. As far as I can tell, black will probably play one of these moves: Rhg8, c5, Ba6, or Rhe8. + Show Spoiler [17...c5] + Personally I worry about what our response after c5 is the most. ![]() I looked at two lines. The first being + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + ![]() One possibly line that didn't look too bad for white is 18. Nf3 cxd4 19. Nxd4 Bc5 20. Nf5 + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() The idea of this line is that we give ourselves an extra move to keep black from mobilizing his c8 Bishop. For example, if he moves his king to uncover the attack on the knight with 20...Kc6 21. Ne7+ forces a Bishop off and improves white's position 20...Kd8 21.Be3 forcing the Bishop off that dangerous diagonal (note, black can't win a pawn from this line, after 21...Bxe3 22. Nxe3 d4 23. Nd4+ or 21...Bxf5 22. Bxc5 Rxb2 23. Bxa7) 20. Kc7 21. Bf4+ drops the exchange. The cons to this line are that black might just leave his c-pawn on with 18...c4 instead which will put us in a bad spot where we must use the rook if we ever intend to develop our Bishop.(the reason why I don't like this line for white). The line would go something like 18. Nf3 c4 19. Re2 Bd6 20. Be3 Kd8 and white doesn't have any space to breathe, while black's second Bishop will soon join the fray. + Show Spoiler [18. dxc5] + ![]() The main line is 18. dxc5 Bxc5, then we have a couple of different choices. Although we can play 19. b4 here, it might not end up being the best move. 19. b4 Bd4 20. Rb1 Rhe8 doesn't look very good for white (alternatively 20...Bc3 also looks pretty bad for white). + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() I'm thinking that 19. Nf3 might not be too bad. 19. Nf3 Rb3 (too prevent b4) 20. Rd1 Bb7 21. Nd4 looks alright. + Show Spoiler [diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Ba6] + ![]() The idea behind this move for black is to active his Bishop. This however comes at the cost of removing his counter to b4, which makes me feel likely that he won't play it. However there are some tricky lines. 18. b4 Rbe8 (threat of Bxb4) 19. Nf3 Bd6 20. Be3 and all the attention transitions to the King side. I think this 18th move gives black a very drawish position imo + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Rg8] + ![]() This is definitely black's most aggressive move in this position. It is almost a taunting move as well, since black can still play c5. I looked at two lines in this position: + Show Spoiler [18. Nf3] + ![]() The idea behind Nf3 is that we free up our pieces and plant our knight on a square where it can help defend the kingside. 18. Nf3 has one major disadvantage though, which is 18...Rb3 19. Re3 Rxe3 20. Bxe3 Kc6 where black has the Bishop pair and I think will eventually win back the d-pawn. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [18. b3] + ![]() I like this move because it prevents the annoying Rb3. The best part is that black can't play c5 anymore, because after 18...c5 19. dxc5 Bxc5 white plays Bb2, 18. b3 Bd6 19. Bb2 Kd8 20. Rac1 looks like a vast improvement to white's position. I don't know if it is enough of an improvement though. + Show Spoiler [Diagram] + ![]() + Show Spoiler [17...Re8] + ![]() This is a move that I think greatly helps black, but for very subtle reasons. It is a less aggressive, almost identical move to Rg8, but now after the 18. b3 Bd6 line, white's rook is under attack. I'm inclined to believe that it shuts down some of the b3 lines, but I don't have analysis to back it up right now ![]() don't forget about 17...a5. I think it's a fairly strong move for all the reasons that it's always been: it discourages b4, threatens a4, and in short strengthens Black's grip on the Queenside. In particular, if Black is considering ...Ba6, he's probably giving serious consideration to playing ...a5 first, before the Bishop blocks that. I haven't looked too deeply into this position yet, and it's always possible that I've missed some specific tactical reason that Black will forgo this move, but even if that's the case, I think we ought to address this move in the analysis (as last turn we addressed 16...f5?). | ||
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