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TL Chess Match 4 - Page 98

Forum Index > General Games
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TehForce
Profile Joined July 2010
1072 Posts
October 16 2011 11:53 GMT
#1941
i think a draw would be much too early right now. just lets see how it plays out.
NesTea <3
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-17 13:17:16
October 16 2011 12:17 GMT
#1942
Analysis (mine and others') of position after 16. Re1
(Neatly formatted with diagrams, explanatory text, and links to further analysis.)

After 16. Re1, White is threatening e4 with two pieces (Knight and Rook), while Black only has the one pawn for defense. Thus White threatens to win a pawn with 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Rxe4. Here are Black's possible responses, ordered by likelihood as I see it.

+ Show Spoiler [16...Nd6] +
Suggested by greggy.

Immediate purpose: vacates e4.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 Nd6
[image loading]
White to play

Cons:
  • Reduces the pressure exerted by the Knight on our position.
  • Blocks the f8-a3 diagonal from Black's Bishop (which is already hemmed in on the other side by the f6 pawn).
    • In particular, this eliminates the threat of ...c5 for the moment.



Ways we might take advantage of this move:
  • 17. b3 taking advantage of the fact that Black's Knight is no longer pressuring the Nd2 that supports b3:
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Nd6 17. b3
    [image loading]
    Black to play

    Purposes:
    • Relieves our Bishop from the defense of the b-pawn.
    • Opens/screens the useful square b2 for our Bishop.
    • Guards c4 (a potentially useful square for Black's Bishop and/or Knight).

  • 17. b4 taking advantage of the fact that Black's Knight blocks the Bishop from attacking b4. Now, if Black plays 17...a5, we can respond with 18. Rb1, defending the pawn.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Nd6 17. b4
    [image loading]
    Black to play

    Purposes:
    • Relieves our Bishop (and other pieces) from the defense of the b-pawn.
    • Opens/screens the useful square b2 for our Bishop.
    • Guards c5.

    Further analysis: by greggy (18... Nf5).


Assessment: Probably Black's best option, in my opinion, but nonetheless allows us a nice amount of room to continue to make progress.

Further analysis: by greggy (17. Nf1).

+ Show Spoiler [16...Nxd2] +
Suggested by jdseemoreglass.

Immediate purpose: vacates e4/counters to our Knight.

Here, assuming that we want our Knight back and we don't want to abandon our b2 pawn to the tender mercies of Black's Rook, 17. Nxd2 appears forced.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2
[image loading]
Black to play

Cons (of this 16th move for Black):
  • Exchanges a further piece from the board (as we are a pawn up, exchanges should favour us, all else being equal).
  • In particular, removes a strong, well-developed piece (the e4 Knight) that has been exerting quite a bit of pressure on us.
  • By allowing us to exchange one of our Knights that had been crowding our position, increases our flexibility (for instance, f3 becomes a viable place for our awkward Nd2).
  • Opens up the e-file for our Rook.


Possible Black follow-ups (drawn from previously thematic Black moves):
  • 17...c5 forcing a central pawn exchange, as ever.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2 c5
    [image loading]
    White to play

    With the Black Ne4 that had been pressuring f2 gone forever (and with the f-file blocked for Black), this move no longer seems very threatening: we can afford to let Black have his Bishop on c5. Meanwhile, the pawn exchange eliminates an isolated pawn for us and gives one to Black and allows us to play b4 with tempo.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2 c5 18. dxc5 Bxc5
    [image loading]
    White to play

    Further analysis: by greggy (18. Nf3).

  • 17...a5 discouraging b4, as ever.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Nxd2 17. Nxd2 a5
    [image loading]
    White to play

    However, b3 accomplishes many of the same goals, and with the Black Ne4 that had been pressuring our Nd2 gone forever, it becomes a much stronger move.

    Alternative plans also look stronger in this position. For example, with Black no longer easily able to control the b1-h7 diagonal via moves like ...Bd3 or ...Bf5 (each of which takes him a couple of moves to play and which we have time to defend), we could consider a set-up with a Rook on b1, a Knight on f3, and our Bishop free to move along the c1-h6 diagonal.

    Further analysis:
    • by jdseemoreglass (18 b3).
    • by lightman (18. Re3).



Assessment: Although it seems better than many of Black's other options, because exchanging the Knight takes so much pressure off of our position, I feel that 16... Nxd2 is to our advantage and that Black will not play it.

Further analysis: by lightman (17...Ba6).

+ Show Spoiler [16...Bb7] +
Suggested by mastergriggy and A-tan.

Immediate purpose: adds a defender to e4.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 Bb7
[image loading]
White to play

Cons:
  • Blocks the b-file.
  • Spends a move on the Bishop, meaning that Black cannot go on to play ...Ba6 without having 'wasted' a move.


Ways we might take advantage of this move:
  • 17. Nb3 taking advantage of the block on the b-file:
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Bb7 17. Nb3
    [image loading]
    Black to play

    Purposes:
    • Unblocks c1 bishop.
    • Removes Black option of ...Nxd2.
    • Controls/threatens to blockade a5, opening the way to safely play b4 (i.e. without allowing Black to break up our position by playing ...a5).
    • Exerts influence on c5, discouraging Black (for the moment) from playing ...c5 (with the associated threat of dxc5 Bxc5, taking aim at f2.


    Further analysis: by A-tan (17...Ba6).

  • 17. b4 taking advantage of the block on the b-file to play the long-desired b4 without further preparation. The point is that Black's usual counter, ...a5, can now be met by b5.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 Bb7 17. b4
    [image loading]
    Black to play

    Purposes: as usual:
    • Relieves our Bishop from the defense of the b pawn (without throwing it onto another piece, as b3 would).
    • Opens/screens useful square for our Bishop at b2.
    • Definitively controls c5: in particular preventing ...c5 (which it can continue to prevent from b5, if necessary).

    Further analysis:
    • by A-tan (17...a5 18. bxa5).
    • by mastergriggy (17... Rhg8).



Assessment: Because 16...Bb7 gives us the chance to safely play b4, I feel that it is to our advantage and that Black will not play it.

Further analysis: by A-tan (17. Nxe4).

+ Show Spoiler [16...Ng5] +
Immediate purpose: vacates e4.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 Ng5
[image loading]
White to play

Cons: Seemingly combines the disadvantages of 16...f5 and 16...Nxd2 in that after 17. Nxg5 fxg5 18. Nf3 (probably with tempo, as it attacks the g5 pawn),
  • we have exchanged one of our crowded Knights for Black's strong one.
  • we have the ability to play 19. Ne5+.

+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 Ng5 17. Nxg5 fxg5 18. Nf3
[image loading]
Black to play



Assessment: Because it appears to give up most of Black's pressure on us for no discernable advantage, I'm fairly sure that Black will not play it.

+ Show Spoiler [16...c5?!] +
Probably the most aggressive of Black's plausible responses to 16. Re1, but also the most dubious after 16...f5?.

Immediate purpose: counter-attacks our d4 pawn.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 c5
[image loading]
White to play

Cons: allows us to win a second pawn.

Ways we might take advantage of this move:
    While there are other moves at our disposal, the only move that seems to challenge Black's aggressive 16...c5 is to accept the offered sacrifice by playing 17. Nxe4.
    17...dxe4 recapturing the Knight: forced
    18. Rxe4 taking the pawn
    18....Bb7 skewering the Re4 and the Nf3 (the two defenders of d4)
    19. Rf4 moving the Rook to a place whence it defends the d-pawn and the Nf3, and threatens the f6 pawn (restraining Black from moving his Be7).
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 c5 17. Nxe4 dxe4 18. Rxe4 Bb7 19. Rf4
    [image loading]
    Black to play
      Here, although Black has some threats that look scary at first glance (e.g. ...Bxf3, ...Rhg8), in the end I think we come out all right and manage to keep our extra pawn.
      • The weakness of the f6 pawn, along with Black's inability to immediately defend d4, allows us to respond to 19...Bxf3 with 20. Rxf3, temporarily abandoning the d-pawn: if then 20...cxd4, 21. Rf4 regains the pawn by forking the f6 and d4 pawns, only one of which can Black's Bishop defend at a time.
      • 19...c4 concedes us the second pawn, and while we may be left with some short-term awkwardness in untangling our pieces, with Black two pawns in the hole and lacking any serious threats, I find it hard to believe that we have anything to worry about.
      • 19...Be7 allows 20. Rxf6 straight off the bat
      • and other moves, including 19...Rhg8, allow us to consolidate our pawn and free up our position with 20. dxc5.





Assessment: I'm sure that Ng5 would love to play this move, if there were a way to make it work, but I don't think there is.

+ Show Spoiler [16...f5?] +
Immediate purpose: adds a defender to e4.
+ Show Spoiler [position] +
After 16. Re1 f5
[image loading]
White to play

Cons:
  • Loses the exchange by force (see below).


Ways we might take advantage of this move:
    17. Ne5+ taking advantage of e5 having opened up.
    + Show Spoiler [position] +
    After 16. Re1 f5 17. Ne5+
    [image loading]
    Black to play

    + Show Spoiler [17...Kd6/Kd8] +
    18. Nf7+ King{somewhere} 19. Nxh8 wins the Rook (although Black will eventually capture the Knight).

    + Show Spoiler [17...Ke6/Ke8] +
    18. Nc6 threatening the Rb8 18... Rook{somewhere} 19. Nxe7 Kxe7 20. f3 attacking the Knight who is pinned to the King, winning the Knight. (Variations involving ...Nxd2 are possible, but make little difference to the result.)


Assessment: 16...f5 is a losing move for Black.


+ Show Spoiler [Thematic moves] +
Short descriptions of a few moves that seem to be generally thematic in this position, some of which are not covered directly in the above analyses. They're worth keeping in mind as ideas to try out in whatever line you happen to be looking at:
  • b3/b4: These moves have been thematic for a while. Their goals are similar: to relieve the Bishop from the defense of the b-pawn and to provide a good square for it to occupy (b2), with the secondary goals of exerting control on c4/c5, respectively.

  • ...a5: Black's thematic response to b4. In many lines, forces the capture bxa5. In others, is played before b4, to preempt it. Has been a theme of the position ever since it was pointed out by greggy on move 13.

  • ...c5: One of Black's thematic threats for a long time. Threatens both ...cxd4 and ...c4 Seems somewhat weaker than it once was, due to
    • our having started down the path of exchanging off our central pawns anyway
    • the Knight likely being driven from e4, where it would have supported a threat to f2 from a Bishop on c5
    for which reasons we needn't shy away from dxc5 if necessary.


  • ...Ba6: One of Black's thematic moves for a long time: developing his light-squared Bishop to a strong location where it does not block the b-file. Not as strong as in other lines, due to our Rook's already having moved to e1. In most lines where Black plays this without having played ...a5, this move has the weakness of hindering ...a5, often allowing us to safely play b4.

  • ...Rhg8: Seizes Black's other half-open file (besides the b-file) and exerts pressure on our g-pawn/King, possibly in conjunction with ...Bb7 (depending on what happens in the center).

  • Na5: A move that comes up in positions where we get a chance to play Nc4 or Nb3 while Black has not yet played ...a5. Its purpose is to pave the way for b4 by preventing the response ...a5. First pointed out by jdseemoreglass on move 14, in the line 14. Nxe4 dxe4 15. Nd2 f5 16. Nc4; while that particular line is no longer relevant, Na5 continues to be.

  • Re3: Develops the e1 Rook to a more central position. In particular:
    • broadens the Rook's scope.
    • defends c3
    • defends d3
    • allows the Rook to move to the c-file.
    • sets up the possibility of doubling our Rooks in the future (e.g. on the c- or e-files).

  • Rb1: Defends the b-pawn, strengthens the possibility of a future b5 after b4 a5, challenges Black's control of the b-file. In other lines was mostly nullified by the possibility of ...Bd3; in these lines (with us having played Re1 before Black plays ...Ba6), seems to be a much stronger possibility.

  • Nf1 (suggested by greggy in a line following 16...Nd6): Particularly relevant in lines where we do not exchange Knights, this move aims
    • to unblock the Bc1.
    • to redeploy the awkwardly-placed d2 Knight to a strong position at e3 or (less likely) g3.




At this point, having spent so long analyzing this 16th move, which is looking good to me as well as leading the vote, I may as well throw in for it. Vote: 16. Re1
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 16 2011 13:08 GMT
#1943
Move 16 Votes

+ Show Spoiler [Voters] +
16. b4: 7 (hype[NZ], mastergriggy, TehForce, ffreak, hp.Shell, GenesisX, Archers_bane, Chezus, indigoawareness, LaXerCannon)
16. Re1: 15 (Malli, dtvu, wuBu, sGs.Kal_rA, lightman, Raysalis, shackes, keyStorm, TehForce, wizard944, mastergriggy, GenesisX, SheaR619, Blazinghand, qrs)
16. Nxe4: 2 (jdseemoreglass, aphorism, SheaR619)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]

Offering draw: 1 of 43 active team members.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
October 16 2011 16:17 GMT
#1944
Amazing write up as always qrs. Thanks for putting in the effort.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
Ikari
Profile Joined April 2007
United States176 Posts
October 16 2011 16:41 GMT
#1945
16. Re1
God Mode: Alt+F4
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 16 2011 17:43 GMT
#1946
On October 17 2011 01:17 jdseemoreglass wrote:
Amazing write up as always qrs. Thanks for putting in the effort.
Thanks for the compliment: it's quite appreciated, especially from the guy who's been doing some of our best analysis all game long.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
Mash2
Profile Joined February 2011
United States132 Posts
October 16 2011 18:38 GMT
#1947
Re1
"Quite often the flood of history is undammed or diverted by the character and actions of one man." - Pat Frank, "Alas, Babylon"
Malinor
Profile Joined November 2008
Germany4728 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-16 21:34:39
October 16 2011 21:30 GMT
#1948
16. Nxe4
"Withstand. Suffer. Live as you must now live. There will, one day, be answer to this." ||| "A life, Jimmy, you know what that is? It's the shit that happens while you're waiting for moments that never come."
Soluhwin
Profile Joined October 2010
United States1287 Posts
October 16 2011 23:04 GMT
#1949
Re1
I put the sexy in dyslexia.
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
October 17 2011 00:20 GMT
#1950
That was a pretty awesome write up Qrs. I think it is safe to say at this point Re1 wins.
Write your own song!
Psilver
Profile Joined June 2008
Canada82 Posts
October 17 2011 00:49 GMT
#1951
16. Re1
chesshaha
Profile Joined March 2010
United States1117 Posts
October 17 2011 01:17 GMT
#1952
16. Re1

+ Show Spoiler +
I was busy this weekend, just a quick look. I think Re1 is the best move right now. If 15. ... Bxf6, I would be playing Nxe4, but I don't think it is good because of dxe 17. nd2 f5. Seems pretty even right now
"Hopefully you're not the real TLO so it's not casted" - SpecialK
Ng5
Profile Joined December 2009
702 Posts
October 17 2011 04:29 GMT
#1953
Deadline is Over.

I will do the work a little later. I won't insta-reply this time anyway.

<3

-me
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 17 2011 07:12 GMT
#1954
Move 16 Votes

+ Show Spoiler [Voters] +
16. b4: 7 (hype[NZ], mastergriggy, TehForce, ffreak, hp.Shell, GenesisX, Archers_bane, Chezus, indigoawareness, LaXerCannon)
16. Re1: 20 (Malli, dtvu, wuBu, sGs.Kal_rA, lightman, Raysalis, shackes, keyStorm, TehForce, wizard944, mastergriggy, GenesisX, SheaR619, Blazinghand, qrs, Ikari, Mash2, Soluhwin, Psilver, chesshaha)
16. Nxe4: 3 (jdseemoreglass, aphorism, SheaR619, Malinor)
+ Show Spoiler [bar graph] +
[image loading]

Offering draw: 1 of 43 active team members. (Blazinghand)
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 17 2011 16:12 GMT
#1955
I've been continuing to think about the position. IMHO, we're approaching a critical point of the game, and it's more important than ever to be sure we consider our moves carefully. Even though it's not our move yet, it's dangerous to wait until the vote has already begun to start discussing what we should play.

Fortunately, we can be pretty confident that Black will play one of 16...Bb7, 16...Nxd2, or 16...Nb6 (I no longer think I can rank them in order of likelihood). Furthermore, after 16...Nxd2, our next move is forced, so we really only have to consider two possibilities if we want to be prepared for the next vote.

Sometime later, maybe I'll try to do a fuller write-up about the ideas in the position. For now, I just want to point out one move that I think we should give strong consideration to playing in the near future--perhaps as early as next move.

+ Show Spoiler [key move] +
Rb1

The more I analyzed our position, the more important this move came to seem. It's a critical move for many reasons:
Why Rb1?

  • It defends the b-pawn on b2, freeing us to move the Bishop, whether or not we move the pawn.
  • It lends additional support to the pawn on b3, if we choose to move it there.
  • It lends additional support to the pawn on b4, if we choose to move it there.
  • It supports the pawn on b5, in case we ever move it there.
  • It defends the Bishop on b2, in case we ever move it there.
  • It contests Black's Rb8 for control of the b-file, in case we ever clear the file, e.g. via bxa5.
  • Once the b-pawn has moved, it supports the Knight on b3, in case we ever move it there.

It may seem like these reasons are all more or less the same, and I'm just trying to make one idea look like many by subdividing it into more or less equivalent cases. That's not really true, though. Rather, the various bullet points correspond to various situations we might find ourselves in, depending on how the game develops. There are cases where we have a Knight on b3 and might want to keep it there. There are cases where we have a pawn on b4 and might want to keep it there. There are cases where we might want to play b5, if we had the chance. There are cases where we have decided to move the pawn to b3 but might want the Nd2 to be free to move. There are cases where we have decided to move the Bishop to b2 but might want the b- pawn free to capture without leaving the Bishop exposed and undefended to attack. In all of these various cases, a Rook on b1 can play a crucial role for us.

Why didn't we consider this earlier?

In other lines, the move seemed problematic, as it exposed the Rook to attack via ...Ba6 Re1 Bd3, forcing the Rb1 right back where it came from. In that situation, Rb1 seemed like a waste of time, at best.

16. Re1 has changed the situation, however. Black cannot play ...Ba6 immediately without losing a pawn, so we have gained a critical tempo. At this point, ...Bd3 is no longer something we have to worry about. Suddenly, Rb1 becomes worth looking at.

Rb1 may be a useful move, but we have other useful moves we want to play. Why should Rb1 be first?

For a couple of reasons:
  • It retains flexibility. We want the Rook on b1 in many lines, but we'd like not to have to commit to them until Black gives us more to go on. For example, we might want to push the pawn to b3 or to b4, or maybe even not to push it at all. If we can delay the decision without losing tempo, then we might stand to benefit by letting Black be the first to commit. For example, if Black plays ...Ba6, all of a sudden, we can play b4 without thinking twice about it.

    A Rook on b1 is useful in all of the above lines. For that reason, it's a way for us to get the jump on Black by going ahead with our plan before determining its every detail.

  • On the other side of the coin, Rb1 offers fewer opportunities for Black than other moves we might consider. For example, if we push the b- pawn first, Black can play ...Nc3, which at least temporarily rules out Rb1. If we play Rb1 first, we are limiting Black's options, compared to the other moves we might to play.

  • In the 16...Bb7 line, Rb1 also has a very immediate use: it defangs ...Nxd2 by enabling us to recapture the Knight with our Bishop, after which our pieces will be largely untangled.

The above general reasons aren't substitutes for analysis. For example, b4 is another move that we may want to prioritize in some lines, in order to play it before Black can play ...a5. So I'm not saying that Rb1 should definitely be the next move we play. I'm saying that it should have an important place in your analysis for next move. Hopefully the reasoning above gives sufficient justification.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 17 2011 21:38 GMT
#1956
On October 14 2011 14:49 mastergriggy wrote:
Analysis of Re1: (note: this is currently not my move, but I thought I'd take a look at it in all fairness)

+ Show Spoiler +
16. Re1 looks like a very strong move. It somewhat defeats the purpose of Ba6, as well as wins a pawn in the case Black doesn't react.

Main Line: 16. Re1 Bb7 17. b4 (prevents c5 which seems to be black's major threat) ...Rhg8

and then white moves:

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)


+ Show Spoiler [18. Nb3] +
...I'm having trouble finding a good response for black. 18...Nc3 looks good, but after Bf4 and Rac1 it is rather meaningless. 18...Ba6 (I'm starting to notice a common theme) leads to lines I posted earlier but with a tempi up for white, and since those lines were favorable for white, I can only suspect these ones will be too.

18...Bc6 is interesting. The idea being that it lets black gain some room on the queen side. 19. Be3 (Bf4 Rg4 21. Be3, so let's skip that move and just play Be3 directly--same for Bh6) Ba4 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
I honestly have no idea who is ahead at this point. White has the extra pawn and Black the Bishop Pair. I do, however, believe this is black's best response to Nb3.


+ Show Spoiler [18. Bb2] +
...Rg7 19. Nf1 Rbg8 20. Ne3 Nd6 21. Nd2 f5 22. f4 Ne4 23. Nf3 and black can't break through.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
Assuming white can hold and I didn't miss anything, it appears that white is very ahead.


Another alternative line 18...Bd6 19. Nb3 Rbe8 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5 Bf4 looks bad for white.
So instead let's play 20. Nh4 Ng5 21. Rxe8 (21. Nf4 Nc3+ wins the exchange) Kxe8 22. Nc5 (Nf4 leads to a literal draw or white a lost of material)...Bc8 doesn't look as good for white anymore either.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]


And that's all I got. On a side note, thanks Qrs for inspiring me to try to make my posts look neat and organized
+ Show Spoiler [re first line] +
+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)
Suppose instead 20...f5, discovering an attack on the Knight from the Be7. I can't see how White hopes to save it. The Knight has nowhere to run, g3 is useless because the g-pawn is pinned, and Bg3 fails to ...f4. We can grab a pawn with 21. Bxc7, but after 21... Rbc8, we're in the same boat as before: two pieces are under attack and one of them has to fall. As far as I see, we end up losing a piece for two pawns, and Black still has the Bishop pair.
+ Show Spoiler [re second line] +
This line I like better, but what if instead of your 17th move, Black gets straight to the point with 17...a5? Originally, I thought that we could respond with 18. b5, but after 18...a4 cuts it off, it looks like we'll end up losing the b-pawn. If so, bxa5 seems to be all but forced, although we can stall with Rb1. After 18. bxa5, your (18)...Rhg8 looks quite a bit scarier (18. Rb1 Rhg8 19. bxa5 transposes).
On October 16 2011 03:50 A-tan wrote:
As for 16. Re1
+ Show Spoiler +
...3)17. b4 (probably best move) a5 18. bxa5 Ba8 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nd2 f5 21. Nc4 looks maybe okay for white? (not sure)
What about + Show Spoiler [mastergriggy's move] +
...Rhg8
for Black's 18th move? Black seems to have a lot of pressure on us in this line.

It's beginning to look to me that + Show Spoiler [move we've been dying to play] +
b4
continues to be premature, and probably won't ripen until Black has reaped his own harvest. Therefore, I think + Show Spoiler [sadly] +
we have to resign ourselves to being unable to stop Black from playing ...c5.
and perhaps we should go with the + Show Spoiler [alternative] +
b3
plan instead.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
jdseemoreglass
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United States3773 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 01:05:56
October 18 2011 01:03 GMT
#1957
f5 looks terrible for black.

If he plays Nxd2, our response is pretty obvious.

Therefore, the only possibilities which we need to analyze at the moment are either Nd6 or Bb7. A quick look at everything else and I don't see anything decent.

+ Show Spoiler +

If black play Bb7, I think we can take another look at the move b4. The situation is significantly changed now that the bishop not only blocks the b-rook, but also no longer guards the a6-f1 diagonal. Since the bishop has the left f5 diagonal, perhaps we can also consider Nh4 here?

If black plays Nd6, b4 is also a little stronger than it was before because the knight can no longer jump to c3, and because the dark-squared bishop is blocked. Perhaps we can also look at the Nb1-Nc3 maneuver.
"If you want this forum to be full of half-baked philosophy discussions between pompous faggots like yourself forever, stay the course captain vanilla" - FakeSteve[TPR], 2006
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 18 2011 05:55 GMT
#1958
On October 18 2011 10:03 jdseemoreglass wrote:
f5 looks terrible for black.

If he plays Nxd2, our response is pretty obvious.

Therefore, the only possibilities which we need to analyze at the moment are either Nd6 or Bb7. A quick look at everything else and I don't see anything decent.

+ Show Spoiler +

If black play Bb7, I think we can take another look at the move b4. The situation is significantly changed now that the bishop not only blocks the b-rook, but also no longer guards the a6-f1 diagonal. Since the bishop has the left f5 diagonal, perhaps we can also consider Nh4 here?

If black plays Nd6, b4 is also a little stronger than it was before because the knight can no longer jump to c3, and because the dark-squared bishop is blocked. Perhaps we can also look at the Nb1-Nc3 maneuver.
+ Show Spoiler +
See my post above yours for 17. b4 after Black plays 16...Bb7. It may not be altogether refuted, but it doesn't make me at all comfortable. Black can still pry open the b-file with ...a5, and he still has a lot of pressure on us after ...Rhg8. I'm beginning to favour the b3 plan after 16...Bb7.

If 16...Nd6, then b4 might be more viable, partly because the Knight can no longer jump to c3, as you said, and partly because ...c5 is not much of a threat anymore. Your idea of using the Nb1-c3 maneuver here also looks like it may have promise.

Overall, I'm starting to think that 16...Bb7 may be Black's strongest move after all, because it keeps up the pressure on us by maintaining the Knight on e4. If nothing else, it's in Ng5's style. If I had to guess, I'd pick 16...Bb7 as the move we're going to face.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
mastergriggy
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States1312 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-18 16:25:33
October 18 2011 06:39 GMT
#1959
On October 18 2011 06:38 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On October 14 2011 14:49 mastergriggy wrote:
Analysis of Re1: (note: this is currently not my move, but I thought I'd take a look at it in all fairness)

+ Show Spoiler +
16. Re1 looks like a very strong move. It somewhat defeats the purpose of Ba6, as well as wins a pawn in the case Black doesn't react.

Main Line: 16. Re1 Bb7 17. b4 (prevents c5 which seems to be black's major threat) ...Rhg8

and then white moves:

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)


+ Show Spoiler [18. Nb3] +
...I'm having trouble finding a good response for black. 18...Nc3 looks good, but after Bf4 and Rac1 it is rather meaningless. 18...Ba6 (I'm starting to notice a common theme) leads to lines I posted earlier but with a tempi up for white, and since those lines were favorable for white, I can only suspect these ones will be too.

18...Bc6 is interesting. The idea being that it lets black gain some room on the queen side. 19. Be3 (Bf4 Rg4 21. Be3, so let's skip that move and just play Be3 directly--same for Bh6) Ba4 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
I honestly have no idea who is ahead at this point. White has the extra pawn and Black the Bishop Pair. I do, however, believe this is black's best response to Nb3.


+ Show Spoiler [18. Bb2] +
...Rg7 19. Nf1 Rbg8 20. Ne3 Nd6 21. Nd2 f5 22. f4 Ne4 23. Nf3 and black can't break through.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
Assuming white can hold and I didn't miss anything, it appears that white is very ahead.


Another alternative line 18...Bd6 19. Nb3 Rbe8 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5 Bf4 looks bad for white.
So instead let's play 20. Nh4 Ng5 21. Rxe8 (21. Nf4 Nc3+ wins the exchange) Kxe8 22. Nc5 (Nf4 leads to a literal draw or white a lost of material)...Bc8 doesn't look as good for white anymore either.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]


And that's all I got. On a side note, thanks Qrs for inspiring me to try to make my posts look neat and organized
+ Show Spoiler [re first line] +
+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)
Suppose instead 20...f5, discovering an attack on the Knight from the Be7. I can't see how White hopes to save it. The Knight has nowhere to run, g3 is useless because the g-pawn is pinned, and Bg3 fails to ...f4. We can grab a pawn with 21. Bxc7, but after 21... Rbc8, we're in the same boat as before: two pieces are under attack and one of them has to fall. As far as I see, we end up losing a piece for two pawns, and Black still has the Bishop pair.
+ Show Spoiler [re second line] +
This line I like better, but what if instead of your 17th move, Black gets straight to the point with 17...a5? Originally, I thought that we could respond with 18. b5, but after 18...a4 cuts it off, it looks like we'll end up losing the b-pawn. If so, bxa5 seems to be all but forced, although we can stall with Rb1. After 18. bxa5, your (18)...Rhg8 looks quite a bit scarier (18. Rb1 Rhg8 19. bxa5 transposes).
On October 16 2011 03:50 A-tan wrote:
As for 16. Re1
+ Show Spoiler +
...3)17. b4 (probably best move) a5 18. bxa5 Ba8 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nd2 f5 21. Nc4 looks maybe okay for white? (not sure)
What about + Show Spoiler [mastergriggy's move] +
...Rhg8
for Black's 18th move? Black seems to have a lot of pressure on us in this line.

It's beginning to look to me that + Show Spoiler [move we've been dying to play] +
b4
continues to be premature, and probably won't ripen until Black has reaped his own harvest. Therefore, I think + Show Spoiler [sadly] +
we have to resign ourselves to being unable to stop Black from playing ...c5.
and perhaps we should go with the + Show Spoiler [alternative] +
b3
plan instead.


In response to your concerns about the first line I have a solution qrs+ Show Spoiler +


first line: 21. Nf3 to safely hold on to the knight (I am not positive if this is good or not) . As a side note, I think Nxe4 is one of white's weaker possibilities.


As for the second line, + Show Spoiler +
I have nothing. If black plays that move immediately, it shuts down white's play and therefore I think it's safe to say that it's bad for white to play



As far as the position goes, here is what I have

+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +

From the start position, lines from black playing Bb7
[image loading]

I've already done a lot of analysis for this line with white playing 17. b4 Rhg8 (this post here), but it seems that black still has the strong move, 17...a5 (thanks to qrs pointing this out) that prevents white from gaining much by b4.

I'm going to look for other white follow ups to 16. Re1 Bb7

+ Show Spoiler [17. Nb3] +
This move has the purpose of freeing up the Bishop as well as developing the knight. One of the big weaknesses I see here is that it's completely undefended, and if black were to play something like 17...Ba6, we have to commit to defending it (18. Re3) or it's just a waste of a move.

There is really not any lines that I see that are worth analyzing that look good for white (the rook line, i.e. 17...Ba6 18. Re3 Bd6 with the intent of Bf4 doesn't look good for white)


+ Show Spoiler [17. Nb1] +
The idea being that white repositions the knight on the c3 square. I looked at a lot of different variations for this move and typed out a lot of analysis, but unfortunately it was all for naught as it doesn't work out after 17. Nb1 Bd6 18. Nc3 Nxc3 19. bxc3 Rhe8 20. Be3 Ba6

[image loading]
black has a strong position. Note that if black had played 17...Rhg8 instead, Nb1 would work perfectly, as white can play Bf4, tying up black. It was worth a try though


+ Show Spoiler [17. Nh4] +
This and b3. both look alright for white (although I have not delved into b3 at all and don't think I'll have time to) The line I found is:

17. Nh4 Nd6 (to prevent Nf5, which is serious trouble for black)
18. Nb3 and black can't stop white from getting in knights either at f5 or c5. Additionally our Bishop has a large range of space including the favorited f4 square.

I suppose black can hold a maintainable position with 17...Rhg8 18. Nf5 Bd6 (or f8 but the Bishop has to move or black loses material) 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nxd6 cxd6 21. Bf4 and white should be able to pull an advantage due to the horrible black pawn structure.


Overall, 17. Nh4 is my favorite move for white. I'll read any analysis about 17. b3 before I make my vote though.

The only objection I've really been concerned about with b3 is the fact that our knights are locked up and I think it would be good to move them before we worry about pawns. But I have no analysis to back that claim up, which is why I am reserving my vote until I see what b3 offers.


Edit: Note: + Show Spoiler +
This analysis all revolves around black playing Bb7. I have done some for Nd3 to, and I'll probably post that sometime tomorrow.
Write your own song!
qrs
Profile Blog Joined December 2007
United States3637 Posts
October 18 2011 08:14 GMT
#1960
On October 18 2011 15:39 mastergriggy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 18 2011 06:38 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler +

On October 14 2011 14:49 mastergriggy wrote:
Analysis of Re1: (note: this is currently not my move, but I thought I'd take a look at it in all fairness)

+ Show Spoiler +
16. Re1 looks like a very strong move. It somewhat defeats the purpose of Ba6, as well as wins a pawn in the case Black doesn't react.

Main Line: 16. Re1 Bb7 17. b4 (prevents c5 which seems to be black's major threat) ...Rhg8

and then white moves:

+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)


+ Show Spoiler [18. Nb3] +
...I'm having trouble finding a good response for black. 18...Nc3 looks good, but after Bf4 and Rac1 it is rather meaningless. 18...Ba6 (I'm starting to notice a common theme) leads to lines I posted earlier but with a tempi up for white, and since those lines were favorable for white, I can only suspect these ones will be too.

18...Bc6 is interesting. The idea being that it lets black gain some room on the queen side. 19. Be3 (Bf4 Rg4 21. Be3, so let's skip that move and just play Be3 directly--same for Bh6) Ba4 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
I honestly have no idea who is ahead at this point. White has the extra pawn and Black the Bishop Pair. I do, however, believe this is black's best response to Nb3.


+ Show Spoiler [18. Bb2] +
...Rg7 19. Nf1 Rbg8 20. Ne3 Nd6 21. Nd2 f5 22. f4 Ne4 23. Nf3 and black can't break through.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
Assuming white can hold and I didn't miss anything, it appears that white is very ahead.


Another alternative line 18...Bd6 19. Nb3 Rbe8 20. Nc5+ Nxc5 21. bxc5 Bf4 looks bad for white.
So instead let's play 20. Nh4 Ng5 21. Rxe8 (21. Nf4 Nc3+ wins the exchange) Kxe8 22. Nc5 (Nf4 leads to a literal draw or white a lost of material)...Bc8 doesn't look as good for white anymore either.
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]


And that's all I got. On a side note, thanks Qrs for inspiring me to try to make my posts look neat and organized
+ Show Spoiler [re first line] +
+ Show Spoiler [18. Nxe4] +
...dxe4 19. Nh4 (Nd2 e3 20. Rxe3 Rxg2) Ke6 20. Bf4 Bd6
+ Show Spoiler [Diagram] +
[image loading]
looks fairly even--I think white gets to exchange the bishop pair for a very hard to defend isolated d-pawn. I'm thinking white has the advantage in this line though (white's best move?)
Suppose instead 20...f5, discovering an attack on the Knight from the Be7. I can't see how White hopes to save it. The Knight has nowhere to run, g3 is useless because the g-pawn is pinned, and Bg3 fails to ...f4. We can grab a pawn with 21. Bxc7, but after 21... Rbc8, we're in the same boat as before: two pieces are under attack and one of them has to fall. As far as I see, we end up losing a piece for two pawns, and Black still has the Bishop pair.
+ Show Spoiler [re second line] +
This line I like better, but what if instead of your 17th move, Black gets straight to the point with 17...a5? Originally, I thought that we could respond with 18. b5, but after 18...a4 cuts it off, it looks like we'll end up losing the b-pawn. If so, bxa5 seems to be all but forced, although we can stall with Rb1. After 18. bxa5, your (18)...Rhg8 looks quite a bit scarier (18. Rb1 Rhg8 19. bxa5 transposes).
On October 16 2011 03:50 A-tan wrote:
As for 16. Re1
+ Show Spoiler +
...3)17. b4 (probably best move) a5 18. bxa5 Ba8 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nd2 f5 21. Nc4 looks maybe okay for white? (not sure)
What about + Show Spoiler [mastergriggy's move] +
...Rhg8
for Black's 18th move? Black seems to have a lot of pressure on us in this line.

It's beginning to look to me that + Show Spoiler [move we've been dying to play] +
b4
continues to be premature, and probably won't ripen until Black has reaped his own harvest. Therefore, I think + Show Spoiler [sadly] +
we have to resign ourselves to being unable to stop Black from playing ...c5.
and perhaps we should go with the + Show Spoiler [alternative] +
b3
plan instead.


In response to your concerns about the first line I have a solution qrs+ Show Spoiler +


first line: 21. Nf3 to safely hold on to the knight (I am not positive if this is good or not) . As a side note, I think Nxe4 is one of white's weaker possibilities.


As for the second line, + Show Spoiler +
I have nothing. If black plays that move immediately, it shuts down white's play and therefore I think it's safe to say that it's bad for white to play



As far as the position goes, here is what I have

+ Show Spoiler [Analysis] +

From the start position, lines from black playing Bb7
[image loading]

I've already done a lot of analysis for this line with white playing 17. b4 Rhg8 (this post here), but it seems that black still has the strong move, 17...a5 (thanks to qrs pointing this out) that prevents white from gaining much by b4.

I'm going to look for other white follow ups to 16. Re1 Bb7

+ Show Spoiler [17. Nb3] +
This move has the purpose of freeing up the Bishop as well as developing the knight. One of the big weaknesses I see here is that it's completely undefended, and if black were to play something like 17...Ba6, we have to commit to defending it (18. Re3) or it's just a waste of a move.

There is really not any lines that I see that are worth analyzing that look good for white (the rook line, i.e. 17...Ba6 18. Re3 Bd6 with the intent of Bf4 doesn't look terrible for white)


+ Show Spoiler [17. Nb1] +
The idea being that white repositions the knight on the c3 square. I looked at a lot of different variations for this move and typed out a lot of analysis, but unfortunately it was all for naught as it doesn't work out after 17. Nb1 Bd6 18. Nc3 Nxc3 19. bxc3 Rhe8 20. Be3 Ba6

[image loading]
black has a strong position. Note that if black had played 17...Rhg8 instead, Nb1 would work perfectly, as white can play Bf4, tying up black. It was worth a try though


+ Show Spoiler [17. Nh4] +
This and b3. both look alright for white (although I have not delved into b3 at all and don't think I'll have time to) The line I found is:

17. Nh4 Nd6 (to prevent Nf5, which is serious trouble for black)
18. Nb3 and black can't stop white from getting in knights either at f5 or c5. Additionally our Bishop has a large range of space including the favorited f4 square.

I suppose black can hold a maintainable position with 17...Rhg8 18. Nf5 Bd6 (or f8 but the Bishop has to move or black loses material) 19. Nxe4 dxe4 20. Nxd6 cxd6 21. Bf4 and white should be able to pull an advantage due to the horrible black pawn structure.


Overall, 17. Nh4 is my favorite move for white. I'll read any analysis about 17. b3 before I make my vote though.

The only objection I've really been concerned about with b3 is the fact that our knights are locked up and I think it would be good to move them before we worry about pawns. But I have no analysis to back that claim up, which is why I am reserving my vote until I see what b3 offers.


Edit: Note: + Show Spoiler +
This analysis all revolves around black playing Bb7. I have done some for Nd3 to, and I'll probably post that sometime tomorrow.
Ah, it was careless of me not to notice the pin on the pawn in that first line. Your move there looks like it may work, but it's a moot point in any case, so I won't pursue this line further.

Before next turn, I'll try to present a more concrete case for the move I suggested, and I'll look at your analysis for the move that you suggest as well.
'As per the American Heart Association, the beat of the Bee Gees song "Stayin' Alive" provides an ideal rhythm in terms of beats per minute to use for hands-only CPR. One can also hum Queen's "Another One Bites The Dust".' —Wikipedia
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