EPTTL Chess Match 4 - Page 96
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Archers_bane
United States1338 Posts
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Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 14 2011 10:59 mastergriggy wrote: 16. b4 + Show Spoiler + I believe the main issue with this line is the threat of Ba6 after a5, but this is no longer a viable option for black, i.e. 16. b4 a5 17. bxa5 Ba6 18. Re1 then Black has 3 options + Show Spoiler [18...f5] + 18...f5 19. Ne5+ Ke8 (Kd6/8 is a fork, Ke6 is the same result as Ke8) 20. Nc6 Rb7 21. Nxe7 Kxe7 f3 wins material. + Show Spoiler [18...Bb7] + Bb7 is bad because of 19. Nh4 c5 20. Nf5 Bf8 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Rb1 wins material either by 22...cxd4 23. a6 or 22...Kc6 23. Rb6+ ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zY3WJ.gif) + Show Spoiler [Alternatives to 20...Bf8] + 20...Rhe8 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Bxe7 Rxe7 23. dxc5 and white is three pawns up. 20....Bd6 21. Nxe4 dxe4 22. Nxd6 Kxd6 23. Bf5 wins the exchange. + Show Spoiler [18...Nc3] + 18...Nc3 is probably black's best move in this situation. 19. Kh1 c5 20. Nf1 cxd4 21. Nxd4 Bc5 23. Be3 and white's position doesn't look too bad (in addition to being two pawns up). ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QOWVH.gif) In fact, I just noticed this. White has another option for 23, 23. Nf5 Bxf2 24. Re7+ Kd8 25. Bf4 Rc8 (Rb2 Bc7+ leads to mate) 26. Re6 wins the pawn back and leaves black hopeless. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hSTw6.gif) Since black can no longer play Ba6, I believe that b4 is a much more viable option now than before. + Show Spoiler + 16.b4 a5 17.bxa5 Ba6 18.Re1 Nc3 19.Nf1 Rb3 - or the general idea of doubling rooks on b file will kill white. In this particular position playing c5 is actually detrimental to black i think - the d4 pawn is constricting white's f3 knight and exchanging it would just release it. I actually feel that taking a5 would be too greedy and Rb1 should be played instead - see my previous post. | ||
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indigoawareness
Slovakia273 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + b4 prevents c5, which appears to be the biggest threat. It allows us to finally gain some freedom for the bishop and rook. I'm amazed at how much influence the black knight on e4 has had. Re1 doesn't seem to achieve much to me except setting up b4 next. He can always play nd6 or f5! to respond to the threat of nxn. Seems to make re1 essentially pointless except for preventing ba6. Unlikely I'll have time later to go deeper but there are plenty of people doing a good job at that.  | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 15 2011 08:42 indigoawareness wrote: b4 so far + Show Spoiler + b4 prevents c5, which appears to be the biggest threat. It allows us to finally gain some freedom for the bishop and rook. I'm amazed at how much influence the black knight on e4 has had. Re1 doesn't seem to achieve much to me except setting up b4 next. He can always play nd6 or f5! to respond to the threat of nxn. Seems to make re1 essentially pointless except for preventing ba6. Unlikely I'll have time later to go deeper but there are plenty of people doing a good job at that. I don't even. + Show Spoiler + f5 is bad because Ne5+, so black has to move the knight. | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 15 2011 08:31 greggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + 16.b4 a5 17.bxa5 Ba6 18.Re1 Nc3 19.Nf1 Rb3 - or the general idea of doubling rooks on b file will kill white. In this particular position playing c5 is actually detrimental to black i think - the d4 pawn is constricting white's f3 knight and exchanging it would just release it. I actually feel that taking a5 would be too greedy and Rb1 should be played instead - see my previous post. + Show Spoiler + I really don't see how doubling the rooks on the b file kill white, so let's go to the end of the line. 20. Ng3 Rhb8 (I'm assuming you are still suggesting doubling the rooks for black) 21. Nd2 looks fine for white. Black can't get in anywhere and white will play Nf5 to break out, giving a strong material advantage to white as well as a fairly even position. | ||
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aphorism
United States226 Posts
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LaXerCannon
Canada558 Posts
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
16. Nxe4, Pxe4 17. Nh5, ??? Generally I would be against knight on the rim but in this situation it suprisingly useful. It shut down his ability to push the f pawn which will lock down his black bishop because now the pawn will block his bishop mobility. It also protect against Rg8. We can also follow it up by doing Nf5 as well and put our knight in good position. Either way, Nh5 is a solid move imo, there nothing that can threaten him either in that position. Oh ya, This is my vote btw since I know for sure this will be his follow up to it. | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9154 Posts
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jdseemoreglass
United States3773 Posts
Please, if you are voting for b4, read this analysis. + Show Spoiler + Take a look at the position following these likely moves: 16. b4 a5 This is probably the best option for black, opening his rook up along the b-file, weakening our pawn structure, and again allowing the move c5 eventually. We can't defend the pawn, and we shouldn't ignore it. So we should play 17. bxa5 Ba6 Black continues with his natural development and grabs a strong diagonal. Here we should play the simple move: 18. Re1 Nc3! Notice the difference in this position from playing Re1 immediately. The c3 square is no longer guarded by our pawn. Now really look at this position. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i6k4z.png) Our bishop has no squares, our a-rook has no squares, our knights have nowhere good to go... We are completely cramped here and black has all the play. There is nothing at all we can do to prevent black from winning our bishop by playing Ne2 next move. What can we do? 19. Nf1 Ne2+ Winning our only bishop and giving us a terrible position. If we simply wait for black to play Ba6 first, then b4 becomes a very strong and solid move. We shouldn't play b4 immediately. Either Re1 to pressure the knight away or Nxe4 are much better continuations imo. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
a terrible move since the last 3-4 moves yet people are still voting for it lol. The situation hasnt change then and it hasnt change now lol if we really end up doing that move ill face palm hard. Of course I am here to be proven wrong but the analysis above me backs me up. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
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TehForce
1072 Posts
On October 15 2011 14:55 jdseemoreglass wrote: If we play b4 black has the option to trade off his knight for our only bishop, giving us a fractured pawn structure and a wide open board for black, with two bishops against two knights. Please, if you are voting for b4, read this analysis. + Show Spoiler + Take a look at the position following these likely moves: 16. b4 a5 This is probably the best option for black, opening his rook up along the b-file, weakening our pawn structure, and again allowing the move c5 eventually. We can't defend the pawn, and we shouldn't ignore it. So we should play 17. bxa5 Ba6 Black continues with his natural development and grabs a strong diagonal. Here we should play the simple move: 18. Re1 Nc3! Notice the difference in this position from playing Re1 immediately. The c3 square is no longer guarded by our pawn. Now really look at this position. Our bishop has no squares, our a-rook has no squares, our knights have nowhere good to go... We are completely cramped here and black has all the play. There is nothing at all we can do to prevent black from winning our bishop by playing Ne2 next move. What can we do? 19. Nf1 Ne2+ Winning our only bishop and giving us a terrible position. If we simply wait for black to play Ba6 first, then b4 becomes a very strong and solid move. We shouldn't play b4 immediately. Either Re1 to pressure the knight away or Nxe4 are much better continuations imo. I still think b4 isnt that bad + Show Spoiler + We trade our inactive bishop against a very active and dominant knight. seems good to me. also i dont know why you play 19.Nf1. g3 would be better i think qrs is not that type of trader person. i think he will chose another line anyway | ||
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TehForce
1072 Posts
After Re1 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KXeKL.png) 16. Re1 Nxd2 17.Nxd2 ... On 18th move we practically have to jump back with the knight to f3 because he is blocking everything. Black has two moves for free After Nxe4 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/i0Mqi.png) 16. Nxe4 dxe4 We have to move back with our knight to d2. Now he is blocking the bishop again and we need to move to c4 which is a good position but black has time to prepare. With Ba6 he blocks c4 and we cant do anything. The knight has no place to go. After b4 + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Tur25.png) 16. b4 a5 17.bxa5 Nc3 18.g3 Ne2+ 19.Kg2 Nxc1 20.Rfxc1 Obviously not a dream position but i dont see huge problems. black permanently has to take care of our passed pawns and a lot of tactics should be possible. Also there are many lines possible after b4 which are even better for us with a good position for our bishop on b2 or a3. i think the position is above is as bad as it could get and it stills looks even if not slightly better for us. | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
Black isn't going to take the bishop on c1.. he'll just leave the knight on e2 where it's clamping all white's pieces down and retreat to f4 if need be. And 16. Re1 Nxd2 is not something that is going to happen either. Nd6 will most likely be played there. And if you really, really want to play b4, it should only be played after Re1 when the d6 knight is stopping the bishop from attacking d4, as I showed before: http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=741221 16.Re1 Nd6 17.b4 a5 18.Rb1 Nf5 19.Nb3 a4 20.Nc5+ Kc6 21.Bf4; or something along those lines. | ||
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shackes
Germany148 Posts
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 15 2011 09:32 mastergriggy wrote: + Show Spoiler + I really don't see how doubling the rooks on the b file kill white, so let's go to the end of the line. 20. Ng3 Rhb8 (I'm assuming you are still suggesting doubling the rooks for black) 21. Nd2 looks fine for white. Black can't get in anywhere and white will play Nf5 to break out, giving a strong material advantage to white as well as a fairly even position. + Show Spoiler + I think there's a slight improvement there: 19. ... Ne2+ followed by Rb3 denies N3d2 (d4 pawn under threat), and 19.Nf1 Ne2+ 20.Kh1 Rb3 21.N1d2 Rc3 22.Bb2 Rc2 23.Reb1 Rb8 24.Ra2 Bf8 with Bh6 next forces d2 knight to move and Bc4 wins; A few other lines: http://www.chess.com/emboard.html?id=741722 | ||
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keyStorm
Canada316 Posts
16.Re1 | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On October 15 2011 19:48 TehForce wrote: Position Pictures After Re1 + Show Spoiler + 16. Re1 Nxd2 17.Nxd2 ... On 18th move we practically have to jump back with the knight to f3 because he is blocking everything. Black has two moves for free After Nxe4 + Show Spoiler + 16. Nxe4 dxe4 We have to move back with our knight to d2. Now he is blocking the bishop again and we need to move to c4 which is a good position but black has time to prepare. With Ba6 he blocks c4 and we cant do anything. The knight has no place to go. After b4 + Show Spoiler + 16. b4 a5 17.bxa5 Nc3 18.g3 Ne2+ 19.Kg2 Nxc1 20.Rfxc1 Obviously not a dream position but i dont see huge problems. black permanently has to take care of our passed pawns and a lot of tactics should be possible. Also there are many lines possible after b4 which are even better for us with a good position for our bishop on b2 or a3. i think the position is above is as bad as it could get and it stills looks even if not slightly better for us. Your making Nxe4 sound bad. When you ignore our next possiblity that I described above.+ Show Spoiler + We can retreat our knight to Nh4. Who said we need to retreat back to clusted up d2? Beautiful position. Read my above post if you disagree. Also with b4 + Show Spoiler + We will not be able to defend that pawn on the a file. It dead and the center will also be dead. He also successfully exchange his knight for our bishop. He will have 2 bishop and we have 2 knight and once we have even footing of pawn, he will have a clear advantage when going to the late game. | ||
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