EPTTL Chess Match 4 - Page 94
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Sm3agol
United States2055 Posts
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A-tan
United States6 Posts
If b3 + Show Spoiler + ba6 re1 c5 ra2 Rhc8 Bb2 c4 bxc4 dxc4 Nxe4 fxe4 Rxe4 c3 Bc1 Rb1 Re1 c2 and black is better These are my thoughts. Feel free to correct them since I haven't played chess for a long time. | ||
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
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EnderSword
Canada669 Posts
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EvilNalu
United States91 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
I will likely post my reply tomorrow. Sometimes around 22-26 hours from now. <3 | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
On October 13 2011 02:26 mastergriggy wrote: What if black ignores g3 and plays + Show Spoiler + Ba6 or a5? Here's the line I see from it: 15. g3 a5 16.Rd1 Ba6 and then c5 or Rhf8 or g5. All of white's pieces are completely cluttered and black has control of the game. Edit: I'm going to repost my vote on this page, as it has some analysis for my move exf6: here. If + Show Spoiler + 15... Ba6 we just Re1. the pawn on f2 is blocked by g3. If 15...a5 then 16. Nxe4 exchanges material and gives us a high probability of winning a pawn as outlined in my line. But g3 will probably not be happening because I was way too late in analyzing the game and there's simply not enough time left to convince enough people to switch from exf6 e.p. I'll start analyzing the board from 15. exf6 e.p. and get back to you guys tomorrow or so. | ||
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Psilver
Canada82 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
And to be honest after g3 I would have had the best game I could have ever hoped for and a good chance to win. Just a free move for me. | ||
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hp.Shell
United States2527 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
End the vote for move 15. hp.Shell wrote: Meh, I didn't mean to be so pushy but I thought it was the best move at the time and there really wasn't a lot of time left. Seemed like the only way to get it on the board. Sorry if it sounded overly condescending. Just curious, what would you have played after g3? And I know you weren't condescending or pushy. I'm just saying, that don't worry it wasn't that good of a move. I can't go into concretes yet, I will later. However I would like to say again, what I've already done so before about endgames. When the endgame comes you can't make a tiny mistake, or lose a tempo. It's life and death. Basically g3 would have given a little extra time for black to dish out his general plan, and that would have been enough to make white feel very uncomfortable in a matter of four-five moves. Black would have had the desired time that many good chess players would sell their soul or sacrifice their firstborn for. It only goes to show how true that is that I ended up choosing 14... f5, even though after 15. exf6 a huge part of black's original plan flies out the window. That's another thing in endgames. Every pawn move should follow a thousand times more care than before. In general what they say in endgames is - you try to get the most out of your position and when you can't get anymore you change the pawn structure. In the opening phase making a small mistake might result in an equal or not as advantageous position, or the loss of initiative. In the midgame it might or might not open up a field trip to an extra tactical possibility, etc. Neither of which necessarily lose you the game right there. In the endgame everything is much more delicate. As someone told me ages ages ago... For endgames you don't only have to be able to see extremely deep lines, and/or be super-talented. You also need to be possessed or just intuitively there. You can't see everything, but not realizing a single move can make you lose. Edit: Hope all this was some help even though being far too vague. Edit: Lemme finish supper and I'll get everything done.  | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
Since voting has been finalized, here is a line following your line that you gave for g3 + Show Spoiler + 15. g3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. dxc5 Bxc5 18. Nxe4 fxe4 19. Ng5 (Nd2 Rhf8 and white is going to lose a lot of material) h6 20. Nh3 g5 (prevent Nf4) and white is basically dead ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/acAHR.gif) (about to lose e-pawn, can't defend the b-pawn, can't move bishop without sacrificing b-pawn and knight is completely worthless stuck on the outside of the board.) | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
On October 12 2011 22:03 hp.Shell wrote: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/9Yrc2.png) I vote 15. g3! BECAUSE IT'S THE BEST MOVE. It ALLOWS + Show Spoiler + 16. Nxe4 at the very least, which trades material (which we really really want) and we probably also win black's d or f pawn. AND we can also open up our bishop a bit. Which also opens up our Rook on a1. Please read for why, imo, exf6 e. p. is a poor move compared to g3, and change your votes accordingly! Ok, it's been a while since I've looked at this game. But I'm gonna give this move the good ol' college try! + Show Spoiler + I dropped out of college.... To help myself analyze the position, I'm not going to read anyone else's analysis until I've finished my own. After that, I'll join the conversation. + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler [Nxe4] + Horrible move on first glance. 15. Nxe4 dxe4 or fxe4 and we're forced to give up our position with the f3 knight, essentially wasting a move and giving a tempo to black. The bishop remains closed. + Show Spoiler [a4] + Allows an awkward Ra3 followup. Not very good. + Show Spoiler [b3] + Allows ...Nc3 immediately, though it doesn't look hugely favorable for black compared to leaving the knight on e4. Keeps the b pawn defended with the knight on d2, but opens white's bishop. A mediocre move. + Show Spoiler [b4] + Worth looking into, I think. Allows 16.Nb3 and really opens up the game for some interesting action. Bad for our black-squared bishop but as long as we're controlling the c1-h6 we're actually in a pretty good spot with it. + Show Spoiler [e6+] + unfavorable. Read please: + Show Spoiler [exf6 e.p.] + I don't really like this move because ...f5 gave us a passed pawn, and we lose it with this move. But it opens the door for some knight aggression later if black decides to Bxf6 instead of gxf6. Decent move, trades pieces (to our advantage because we are ahead in material), and opens up the center. It also opens black's bishop to attack h2 with Bd6 which we really don't want, and doesn't do much to open our own bishop. Read please: + Show Spoiler [g3] + Defends f4, which I don't see black deciding to do anytime soon. Also closes our bishop again if black decides to make us double our pawns on f. Actually, I like this move. Let's do some more analysis here. Black's bishop really can't make a good move anyway. What I'm concerned with is black forcing our bishop to move so we hang the b2 pawn and let the black rook in to attack full force. We really don't want black's rook on b2. The other thing is the c8 bishop. Black wants to play Ba6 because it leaves the f2 pawn mostly undefended and puts our king in a horrible spot if black decides to sacrifice the knight later. 15. g3 f4 16. gxf4 and we have a well-defended passed pawn on e5. This is very favorable because it allows pawn pressure on the kingside while allowing us to attack with our more mobile pieces queenside, where black's king is. This blocks both black-square bishops, but allows us to tear up the center with 17. Nxe4. 15. g3 f4 16. Nxe4 dxe4 15. g3 g5 16. Nxe4 [fxe4 or dxe4] 17. Nxg5 and we're ahead another pawn. 15. g3 Nxg3 16. fxe3 opens our rook and leaves the same strategy for dealing with black's f pawn. 15. g3 h6 probably the best response for black. 15. g3 Rf8 16. Nxe4 fxe4 17. Nh4 e3 18. fxe3 (not Bxe3 because ...Rxb2) Here's what could happen later: 18. fxe3 Rxf1+ 19. Kxf1 Ba6+ 20. Kg1 g5 21. Ng2 Ke6 22. Rb1 c5 23. dxc5 Kxe5 24. b4 which leaves us with this position: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/OsdtK.png) Of course there are other lines but I really like this oen and it seems to be one of the best options for black aside from h6. I could easily see a rook trade followed by 19. ...Ba6+ which makes this line pretty viable. + Show Spoiler [unfinished moves] + + Show Spoiler [Nc4] + loses the knight. + Show Spoiler [Ng5] + loses the knight. + Show Spoiler [Nh4] + loses the knight. Major conclusion for TLDR: + Show Spoiler + I advocate against 15. exf6 e.p. Please read that move's line for why. I disagree about g3. Simply because I fail to see the reason behind it. It doesnt really do anything but give him a free tempo. I do not believe this move is worth the tempo at all when we are this close to the late game, the tempo is very important. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Peace. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 13 2011 15:46 SheaR619 wrote: Interesting.....he can take back with the knight, I totally overlooked that possibility. Of course taking it with the bishop is still better imo. If he takes it with the pawn then he is definitely going to to very aggressive with that g file. Although, I think the most logical move would still be taking it with bishop though. i don't think he'll take with the knight as that allows + Show Spoiler + Ne5+ and Ndf3, which at the very least greatly helps white's position. I suspect recapturing with the pawn because it stops Ne5 and doesn't put the Bishop in a position where it has to capture (Ne5+; I say has because most of the other lines I analyzed after Bxf6 are terrible for black if he leaves the knight on e5). But that's just me. | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
Move 15 Votes (final) + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 15. b4: 1 ( 15. exf e.p.: 22 (SheaR619, jdseemoreglass, Ikari, dtvu, Malli, Bill Murray, LaXerCannon, mastergriggy, Raysalis, aphorism, chesshaha, GenesisX, itsjustatank, Chezus, shackes, hype[NZ], Malinor, wuBu, Mabilis, A-tan, EvilNalu, Psilver) 15. Re1: 3 (keyStorm, Sm3agol, EnderSword) 15. b3: 4 (qrs, wizard944, indigoawareness, Mash2) 15. g3: 1 (hp.Shell) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/d0Htv.png) | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
Round 16 starts here. I'll try to send out reminders when I get home. Unless I die before midnight. | ||
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hype[NZ]
Japan412 Posts
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