EPTIt seems like the best move right now, but someone can feel free to prove me wrong.
TL Chess Match 4 - Page 92
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aphorism
United States226 Posts
It seems like the best move right now, but someone can feel free to prove me wrong. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
+ Show Spoiler [rationale] + Since ...a5 still makes b4 look bad, this is a different way to get our stifled c1 Bishop free and develop it to b2. I don't like the looks of PxP, because it's trading off a strong, passed central pawn and I don't see what we get for that in particular. | ||
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Ng5
702 Posts
mastergriggy wrote: I thought I found a line for Ba6 that was pretty good for black. If you care to read it, it's spoiled below. There's some improvement for white there that makes it harder for black to fight for anything more than a draw. Of course there are such lines everywhere, but I will tell my main concern about this particular plan later when it's not relevant anymore. | ||
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chesshaha
United States1117 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + take it while I can, before the pawn runs loose... I don't like the knight, and I it out, I'm thinking about trading a lot but at the end we gonna loose our b pawn. I haven't found a better move than this move yet. | ||
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Mash2
United States132 Posts
On October 11 2011 04:29 qrs wrote: 15. b3 + Show Spoiler [rationale] + Since ...a5 still makes b4 look bad, this is a different way to get our stifled c1 Bishop free and develop it to b2. I don't like the looks of PxP, because it's trading off a strong, passed central pawn and I don't see what we get for that in particular. + Show Spoiler + I like this move more than the en passant, but I think it still has its weaknesses. It has the strengths of the b4 move, but eliminates the a5 weakness. I'm still worried about him playing ba6 though. We would be forced to play 16. Re1 to which he could follow up with Nc3. That would allow him to play 17. ... Ne2+. This puts his Knight on a pretty nice outpost, deep in our territory, on a light square, where he has the protection of that light square bishop. | ||
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wizard944
194 Posts
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Ng5
702 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + just because we can right now. However, we won't be able to trade in 16. Nxe4 because our knight on f3 will be pressured by the pawn and can't move to g5. EDIT: oops, didn't see we'll need to guard the pawn on d4 if he plays 15. ... Bxf6, so I guess thats another reason not to play 16. Nxe4 (or to play 15. exf6ep at all...) | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 11 2011 06:07 Mash2 wrote: That's a good point. On the other hand, + Show Spoiler ++ Show Spoiler + I like this move more than the en passant, but I think it still has its weaknesses. It has the strengths of the b4 move, but eliminates the a5 weakness. I'm still worried about him playing ba6 though. We would be forced to play 16. Re1 to which he could follow up with Nc3. That would allow him to play 17. ... Ne2+. This puts his Knight on a pretty nice outpost, deep in our territory, on a light square, where he has the protection of that light square bishop. After 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 Nc3 17. Bb3 N3e2+ 18. Kh1, although he does have a nice-looking outpost for his Knight, the Knight on e2 is virtually trapped in our territory (after g3 it will be trapped), and the Bishop on a6 is tied to the protection of the Knight. I can't see a good way to kill the Knight, with the Bishop protecting it, but we can probably exchange it off with Ng1 or ...c5xd4 Nxd4. Overall, I'm not sure whether I like this for us or not. It's something to think about, anyway. On a different subject, for what it's worth: Move 14 Votes (final) + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 14. Nxe4: 11 (Soluhwin, Ikari, 14. 0-0: 17 (GenesisX, SheaR619, EvilNalu, shackes, Raysalis, Bill Murray, Mash2, Malinor, jdseemoreglass, Chezus, wizard944, Archers_bane, Sm3agol, wuBu, keyStorm, Soluhwin, hype[NZ]) (My tally is one off Ng5's again) 14. b4: 0-1 (Joseki?) (Joseki's vote was in spoiler tags, so Ng5 may not tally it) 14. Ke2: 1 (timh) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/W4qxv.png) | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
First I'd like to say, I by no means think it's a bad move for white. I think it's a very solid move. Second, I want to say black has a much stronger move on 16 than Nc3 with c5 which undermines white and leads to a very dynamic position. The entire line being 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. dxc5 (Nxe4 straight up loses a pawn while b4 allows for c4 which might be okay for white but it defeats the point of playing b3 in the first place) 17...Bxc5 18. Nxe4 (pressure on f2) fxe4 19. b4 transposes into a line attained from exf6 except white is down a tempi (although I did say in my other post that I thought it was okay for white, I'd just prefer the extra move that resulted from the exf6). That post can be found here: post | ||
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SheaR619
United States2399 Posts
I mean right now we are up. If we play b3, we will go back to the defensive again. Although it isnt bad, but it feels to passive. we can still play b3 after this doing en passant. Considering this is our only chance to do en passant. | ||
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 11 2011 14:33 mastergriggy wrote: In response to qrs's comments on b3 + Show Spoiler + First I'd like to say, I by no means think it's a bad move for white. I think it's a very solid move. Second, I want to say black has a much stronger move on 16 than Nc3 with c5 which undermines white and leads to a very dynamic position. The entire line being 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. dxc5 (Nxe4 straight up loses a pawn while b4 allows for c4 which might be okay for white but it defeats the point of playing b3 in the first place) 17...Bxc5 18. Nxe4 (pressure on f2) fxe4 19. b4 transposes into a line attained from exf6 except white is down a tempi (although I did say in my other post that I thought it was okay for white, I'd just prefer the extra move that resulted from the exf6). That post can be found here: post In general terms, I agree with you that + Show Spoiler + ...c5 In terms of your specific line, while I think that it looks fairly nice for Black, I wouldn't play the 17th move for White that you give. + Show Spoiler [details] +
However, why not simply proceed with the main plan by playing 17. Bb2 ? Here, if 17...cxd4, we can respond with 18. Bxd4, posting our Bishop to a strong central position and threatening the pawn on a7. + Show Spoiler [position] + After 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. Bb2 cxd4 18. Bxd4 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2lo0g.png) Black to play Of course, 17...cxd4 is hardly forced--I give that line to show that 17...cxd4, which is Black's main treat after 16...c5, has its teeth pulled by 17. Bb2. I have to admit that I haven't yet had the time to go through all the analysis in the previous post of yours that you mention, but I still intend to go back and look at that. On October 11 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I agree with giggy. + Show Spoiler + I mean right now we are up. If we play b3, we will go back to the defensive again. Although it isnt bad, but it feels to passive. we can still play b3 after this doing en passant. Considering this is our only chance to do en passant. I see why you call 15. b3 passive, but I wouldn't call it that myself: it has an active purpose. + Show Spoiler + To develop our Bishop to b2--which I'll add has become an even stronger diagonal for it now that Black has played ...f5. it gets rid of our strong central outpost of e5, just when Black has made it even stronger by turning it into a passed pawn and giving up the ability to challenge it with ...f3. It's true that Black can isolate it with ...c5 at some point, but between the Knight on f3, the Bishop that's about to go to f2, a Rook on e1 (if Black moves his e4 Knight), and Black's inability to challenge it with pawns, the e5 pawn is well defended--I don't see a compelling reason for us to give up that strength. Like a good salesman, Ng5 keeps trying to tempt us with en passants and other moves that scream "FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY!", but that doesn't mean we should necessarily rush to play them. On a different subject: Move 15 Votes + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 15. b4: 0 ( 15. exf e.p.: 12 (SheaR619, jdseemoreglass, Ikari, dtvu, Malli, Bill Murray, LaXerCannon, mastergriggy, Raysalis, aphorism, chesshaha, GenesisX) 15. Re1: 1 (keyStorm) 15. b3: 2 (qrs, wizard944) ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/1Hj3e.png) | ||
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mastergriggy
United States1312 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:31 qrs wrote:+ Show Spoiler + On October 11 2011 14:33 mastergriggy wrote: In response to qrs's comments on b3 + Show Spoiler + First I'd like to say, I by no means think it's a bad move for white. I think it's a very solid move. Second, I want to say black has a much stronger move on 16 than Nc3 with c5 which undermines white and leads to a very dynamic position. The entire line being 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. dxc5 (Nxe4 straight up loses a pawn while b4 allows for c4 which might be okay for white but it defeats the point of playing b3 in the first place) 17...Bxc5 18. Nxe4 (pressure on f2) fxe4 19. b4 transposes into a line attained from exf6 except white is down a tempi (although I did say in my other post that I thought it was okay for white, I'd just prefer the extra move that resulted from the exf6). That post can be found here: post In general terms, I agree with you that + Show Spoiler + ...c5 In terms of your specific line, while I think that it looks fairly nice for Black, I wouldn't play the 17th move for White that you give. + Show Spoiler [details] +
However, why not simply proceed with the main plan by playing 17. Bb2 ? Here, if 17...cxd4, we can respond with 18. Bxd4, posting our Bishop to a strong central position and threatening the pawn on a7. + Show Spoiler [position] + After 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. Bb2 cxd4 18. Bxd4 Black to play Of course, 17...cxd4 is hardly forced--I give that line to show that 17...cxd4, which is Black's main treat after 16...c5, has its teeth pulled by 17. Bb2. I have to admit that I haven't yet had the time to go through all the analysis in the previous post of yours that you mention, but I still intend to go back and look at that. On October 11 2011 14:58 SheaR619 wrote: I agree with giggy. + Show Spoiler + I mean right now we are up. If we play b3, we will go back to the defensive again. Although it isnt bad, but it feels to passive. we can still play b3 after this doing en passant. Considering this is our only chance to do en passant. I see why you call 15. b3 passive, but I wouldn't call it that myself: it has an active purpose. + Show Spoiler + To develop our Bishop to b2--which I'll add has become an even stronger diagonal for it now that Black has played ...f5. it gets rid of our strong central outpost of e5, just when Black has made it even stronger by turning it into a passed pawn and giving up the ability to challenge it with ...f3. It's true that Black can isolate it with ...c5 at some point, but between the Knight on f3, the Bishop that's about to go to f2, a Rook on e1 (if Black moves his e4 Knight), and Black's inability to challenge it with pawns, the e5 pawn is well defended--I don't see a compelling reason for us to give up that strength. Like a good salesman, Ng5 keeps trying to tempt us with en passants and other moves that scream "FOR A LIMITED TIME ONLY!", but that doesn't mean we should necessarily rush to play them. On a different subject: Move 15 Votes + Show Spoiler [Voters] + 15. b4: 0 ( 15. exf e.p.: 12 (SheaR619, jdseemoreglass, Ikari, dtvu, Malli, Bill Murray, LaXerCannon, mastergriggy, Raysalis, aphorism, chesshaha, GenesisX) 15. Re1: 1 (keyStorm) 15. b3: 2 (qrs, wizard944) Qrs, + Show Spoiler + after 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. Bb2 c4, and black regains his material either from 18. b4 c3 19. Nxe4 fxe4 or just letting the pawn drop (note if Rac1, then Rhc8). Edit: Added a giant spoiler. | ||
itsjustatank
Hong Kong9153 Posts
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Chezus
Netherlands427 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
On October 11 2011 15:49 mastergriggy wrote: You're right: I missed that completely. It looks like it's back to the line that you gave, then. I'll have to think about this some more.Qrs, + Show Spoiler + after 15. b3 Ba6 16. Re1 c5 17. Bb2 c4, and black regains his material either from 18. b4 c3 19. Nxe4 fxe4 or just letting the pawn drop (note if Rac1, then Rhc8). Edit: Added a giant spoiler. | ||
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shackes
Germany148 Posts
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qrs
United States3637 Posts
I don't have the time to cover all the posted analysis even to start with, especially on the popular lines (even though they're the ones people could most use a summary for), so this shouldn't be looked at as as more than a shortcut to see what the current thoughts are on a given line that you may be interested in looking at. If not all of the posts on that line (at the time of this post) are covered, I'll make that clear. I know that without covering of all of the analysis, this is at best only slightly helpful, but it can't hurt, and if anyone decides to quote this post and expand it, then it can be a base for a fuller summary. Partial Summary of Posted Analysis: 15. 15. exf en passant: lots of analysis; currently no summary--sorry. + Show Spoiler [15. b3] + 15...Ba6: the only Black move that has been discussed. In addition to simply developing the Bishop to a strong location, one point of it is to force the Rook away from f1, which leads to an additional threat (...B/Nxf2) after a possible future ...Bxc5 16. Re1 moving the Rook out of danger, to a reasonable spot where it is not subject to immediate further attack
+ Show Spoiler [17. dxc5] + 17...Bxc5 recapturing the pawn and threatening ...Bxf2+ as well as (if the Knight leaves c3) ...Bd4 18. Nxe4 to remove the threat of ...Bxf2+ 18... fxe4 recapturing the Knight and threatening the Nc3 19. b4 given by mastergriggy, presumably to induce Black to abandon the threat of ...Bd4. However, 19...Bc6 maintaining the threat 20. N{somewhere} under duress from the e4 pawn 20...Bd4 forking the a1 Rook and the e pawn and it seems that Black will win a pawn. Summary of analysis: Black wins a pawn. + Show Spoiler [17. Nxe4] + 17...fxe4 recapturing the Knight; attacking the f3 Knight 18. Nd2 to defend b3 18...cxd4 winning a pawn: if it is later threatened, it can move to d3 Summary of analysis: Black wins a pawn. + Show Spoiler [17. b4] + 17...cxb4 winning a pawn 17...c4 suggested by mastergriggy, with the comment, "might be okay for white but it defeats the point of playing b3 in the first place." Summary of analysis: Black wins a pawn with 17...cxb4. 17. Bb2 is refuted by mastergriggy here + Show Spoiler [17. Rb1] + 17...Bd3 attacking the Rb1 Summary of analysis: Useless at best. 17. Ra2: not analyzed yet... + Show Spoiler [17. other moves] + 17...Nxd2 removing the defender from b3 Summary of analysis: Black wins a pawn. Summary of analysis: Unless 17. Ra2 works, Black seems to win a pawn. 17. Ra2 has not yet been analyzed. 16...Nc3 is discussed here. Summary of analysis: unclear + Show Spoiler [15. b4] + 15...a5 threatening to win a pawn with...axb 16. bxa5 since the pawn can't escape or be defended 16... Ba6 developing the Bishop to a good spot in general; specifically, forcing the Rook away from f1, which leads to an additional threat (...B/Nxf2) after a possible future ...Bxc5 17. Re1 moving the Rook out of danger, to a reasonable spot where it is not subject to immediate further attack 17...c5 undermining our center + Show Spoiler [position] + After 15. b4 a5 16. bxa5 Ba6 17. Re1 c5 ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/KSZmW.png) White to play On October 11 2011 01:01 jdseemoreglass wrote: Our entire position is falling apart isn't it? And we are terribly underdeveloped. Black has all the initiative and play here imo. Summary of analysis: looks good for Black. | ||
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
what about Nb1 it can free up our bishop, and really give our knight better movement along out queenside i'd say Nb3 if we wouldn't lose it to that rook on Rb8 For people wanting to do b3, you'll have to change that to b4 to get my vote. I want to have a space to move our Knight onto the B or C file and not lose it | ||
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greggy
United Kingdom1483 Posts
On October 08 2011 15:13 EvilNalu wrote: + Show Spoiler + Now that 0-0 won, I think it's time for me to post some of the lines I've been analyzing. The first thing to note about the position after 14.0-0 is that Nxe4 is a credible threat now for white. For example, if black keeps the status quo in the center with a move like 14...a5, white can play 15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Nd2 and now 16...f5 runs into 17.fxe6 Bxe6 18.Nxe4 and now white is 2 pawns up because of 18...Bxd4 19.Rd1. 16...Bb7 also fails after 17.Re1 f5 18.exf6 Bxf6 19.Nxe4 Bxd4 20.Rd1 again. Of course, black will likely not waste a move and will challenge us in the center. 14...c5 has been advanced as a good try for black. 15.dxc5 Ba6 16.Rd1 seemed to be the main line, but I'm still not convinced that 16...Be2 doesn't gum up the works: + Show Spoiler + 17.Re1 Bxf3 18.gxf3 Nxd2 19.Bxd2 Rxb2 20.Be3 and white's pawns are all on the same color as the bishops and looks terribly vulnerable. I don't like the looks of that ending. Of course, it is possible that the 18.Nxf3 lines work. In any case, I think white has an even stronger continuation in 14...c5 15.Rd1. In fact, I think this is pretty close to a refutation of 14...c5. Nxe4 is such a strong threat that black is pretty much forced to play 15...Nxd2. Alternatives to 15...Nxd2: + Show Spoiler + 15...cxd4 16.Nxe4 15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.Nxe4 dxe4 18.Ng5+ 15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Nxd2 17.Rxd2 Bxc5 18.Rc2 and white will finally develop After 14...c5 15.Rd1 Nxd2 16.Rxd2, black's options are: 16...cxd4 17.Rxd4 Ke6 18.b4 16...Ke6/c6 17.dxc5 Bxc5 18.b4 16...c4 17.Rc2 and white can finally develop his queenside pieces and look to his long term plan of pushing his kingside majority pawns. Black has also acquiesced to a more closed pawn structure where his two bishops will be less effective. All of these options look pretty positive for white. If that means black can't play either 16...a5 or c5, his game is not looking great. + Show Spoiler + I think this - namely Rd1 - is still the strongest continuation for white. Black's knight on e4 is not threatening in the slightest, so there is no need to rush into stupid exchanges. Passive play will go a long way here. exf6 is terrible because it opens the large diagonal for his bishop, which isn't currently doing anything. b3 is bad because we're clumped as it is and tying up the knight isn't helping us. The b-pawn will be difficult to defend should black play Ba6-d3-Rb6-Rhb8 (not necessarily consecutively), while putting bishop on b2 makes the pawn harder to defend. Nxe4 is just transposing into lines analysed already, and I believe that taking the knight at this time isn't a good decision at all. | ||
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