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Wow, castle won? I thought for sure it was going to be Nxe4 given all the analysis going that direction.
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Castle it is I think I'm gonna hold off the analysis until tomorrow however. Actually I take that back, I think I'll hold off until I see Ng5's move.
Edit: + Show Spoiler +It looks like Black has quite a few possibilities. I'm thinking f5 if it is sound (no analysis right now to back it up though). Ba6 looks strong, but I think it is kind of the expected move, which makes me think Ng5 might avoid it.
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+ Show Spoiler +Now that 0-0 won, I think it's time for me to post some of the lines I've been analyzing. The first thing to note about the position after 14.0-0 is that Nxe4 is a credible threat now for white. For example, if black keeps the status quo in the center with a move like 14...a5, white can play 15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Nd2 and now 16...f5 runs into 17.fxe6 Bxe6 18.Nxe4 and now white is 2 pawns up because of 18...Bxd4 19.Rd1. 16...Bb7 also fails after 17.Re1 f5 18.exf6 Bxf6 19.Nxe4 Bxd4 20.Rd1 again. Of course, black will likely not waste a move and will challenge us in the center. 14...c5 has been advanced as a good try for black. 15.dxc5 Ba6 16.Rd1 seemed to be the main line, but I'm still not convinced that 16...Be2 doesn't gum up the works: + Show Spoiler +17.Re1 Bxf3 18.gxf3 Nxd2 19.Bxd2 Rxb2 20.Be3 and white's pawns are all on the same color as the bishops and looks terribly vulnerable. I don't like the looks of that ending. Of course, it is possible that the 18.Nxf3 lines work. In any case, I think white has an even stronger continuation in 14...c5 15.Rd1. In fact, I think this is pretty close to a refutation of 14...c5. Nxe4 is such a strong threat that black is pretty much forced to play 15...Nxd2. Alternatives to 15...Nxd2: + Show Spoiler +15...cxd4 16.Nxe4
15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.Nxe4 dxe4 18.Ng5+ 15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Nxd2 17.Rxd2 Bxc5 18.Rc2 and white will finally develop After 14...c5 15.Rd1 Nxd2 16.Rxd2, black's options are: 16...cxd4 17.Rxd4 Ke6 18.b4 16...Ke6/c6 17.dxc5 Bxc5 18.b4 16...c4 17.Rc2 and white can finally develop his queenside pieces and look to his long term plan of pushing his kingside majority pawns. Black has also acquiesced to a more closed pawn structure where his two bishops will be less effective. All of these options look pretty positive for white. If that means black can't play either 16...a5 or c5, his game is not looking great.
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On October 08 2011 13:40 jdseemoreglass wrote: Wow, castle won? I thought for sure it was going to be Nxe4 given all the analysis going that direction.
Yea, I was suprised too. I thought Nxe4 won too, I voted early, but I didn't keep up with the analysis. I still think Nxe4 is the better move. Hope I'm wrong.
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On October 08 2011 14:21 mastergriggy wrote:Castle it is  I think I'm gonna hold off the analysis until tomorrow however. Actually I take that back, I think I'll hold off until I see Ng5's move. Edit: + Show Spoiler +It looks like Black has quite a few possibilities. I'm thinking f5 if it is sound (no analysis right now to back it up though). Ba6 looks strong, but I think it is kind of the expected move, which makes me think Ng5 might avoid it.
Random thought on your spoiler
+ Show Spoiler +With the board the way it is, there's really no difference between f4 and f5, as the pawn can be captured by white's e pawn in either case (en passe, n such). f5 I suppose does force the capture moreso than f4, though either way the pawn cap is the most likely response.
That line would be interesting though, mostly hinging on whether he chooses to recapture with the bishop or pawn...pawn is more stable and doesn't provide virtually free check via the knight, but restricts the bishops access to the right side of the board, though it does slightly free up the king's side rook (lost track of how to do the notation on a lot of these things, so have to use weaksauce descriptions)
Suffice to say, it's been interesting to lurk the thread and see how things develop when it's thinktank vs one man, with things being remarkably close this far in.
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Here's a line: + Show Spoiler +14...Ba6 15. Rd1 Nxd2 16. Nxd2 (I suppose white could play Rxd2 but that lets Rb3, Rhb8, etc.) 16...Bd3 seems pretty forced but good for black.
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On October 08 2011 13:20 Ng5 wrote:
Haha. It's a cute game. Even my mother thinks so.
Probably the reason you shouldn't be playing it >_>
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On October 08 2011 15:13 EvilNalu wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Now that 0-0 won, I think it's time for me to post some of the lines I've been analyzing. The first thing to note about the position after 14.0-0 is that Nxe4 is a credible threat now for white. For example, if black keeps the status quo in the center with a move like 14...a5, white can play 15.Nxe4 dxe4 16.Nd2 and now 16...f5 runs into 17.fxe6 Bxe6 18.Nxe4 and now white is 2 pawns up because of 18...Bxd4 19.Rd1. 16...Bb7 also fails after 17.Re1 f5 18.exf6 Bxf6 19.Nxe4 Bxd4 20.Rd1 again. Of course, black will likely not waste a move and will challenge us in the center. 14...c5 has been advanced as a good try for black. 15.dxc5 Ba6 16.Rd1 seemed to be the main line, but I'm still not convinced that 16...Be2 doesn't gum up the works: + Show Spoiler +17.Re1 Bxf3 18.gxf3 Nxd2 19.Bxd2 Rxb2 20.Be3 and white's pawns are all on the same color as the bishops and looks terribly vulnerable. I don't like the looks of that ending. Of course, it is possible that the 18.Nxf3 lines work. In any case, I think white has an even stronger continuation in 14...c5 15.Rd1. In fact, I think this is pretty close to a refutation of 14...c5. Nxe4 is such a strong threat that black is pretty much forced to play 15...Nxd2. Alternatives to 15...Nxd2: + Show Spoiler +15...cxd4 16.Nxe4
15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Bxc5 17.Nxe4 dxe4 18.Ng5+ 15...Ke6 16.dxc5 Nxd2 17.Rxd2 Bxc5 18.Rc2 and white will finally develop After 14...c5 15.Rd1 Nxd2 16.Rxd2, black's options are: 16...cxd4 17.Rxd4 Ke6 18.b4 16...Ke6/c6 17.dxc5 Bxc5 18.b4 16...c4 17.Rc2 and white can finally develop his queenside pieces and look to his long term plan of pushing his kingside majority pawns. Black has also acquiesced to a more closed pawn structure where his two bishops will be less effective. All of these options look pretty positive for white. If that means black can't play either 16...a5 or c5, his game is not looking great.
I think you made a very little mistake in the first line you analyzed, just saying cause it confused me when I read your post. + Show Spoiler +and now 16...f5 runs into 17.fxe6 Bxe6. I think you meant 17.exf6 Bxf6
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I am predicting black next move to be + Show Spoiler + Nxd2
Simply because now that we have castle and have the support of the rook, black will lose the knight there no matter wat. If he doesnt take something with it, then we will force a trade and he will eventually lose a pawn in the exchange.
Therefore....
14. 0-0, Nxd2 15. Nxd2, Bg5 16. b4, Re8
This is the best position I can get for black therefore I think this is most likely his move.
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I predict + Show Spoiler +, After which we are force to + Show Spoiler + 15. Re1 f5!
This line will cause us a bit of a problem since 16. Nxe4 will be met with 16... fxe giving black a half-opened f file and also effective wrestled back the centre control.
It's prob better to go 16. b4 in this case, but then 16... g5! 17.h3 h5
Black will just continue to push the pawns with his bishops behind.
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On October 10 2011 09:04 dtvu wrote:I predict + Show Spoiler +, After which we are force to + Show Spoiler + 15. Re1 f5!
This line will cause us a bit of a problem since 16. Nxe4 will be met with 16... fxe giving black a half-opened f file and also effective wrestled back the centre control.
It's prob better to go 16. b4 in this case, but then 16... g5! 17.h3 h5
Black will just continue to push the pawns with his bishops behind.
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If black were to do that...+ Show Spoiler + We can en passant (google it if you dont know what it is) and we be in better position imo. The Ba6 would basically favor us since we were planning to do that move anyways to get rid of the center atleast that what i would think.
So if he does ba6 into f5 we would en passant the f pawn and it would be more like this
16. 0-0, Ba6 17. Re1, f5 18. e5xf5, Bxf6 19. Nxe4, Pxe4 20. Rxe4, ???
From here we be in favorable position and up 2 pawn now. I dont think he would do this. He could of taken it with the pawn instead of the bishop but the result would be the same. I anticipate he take with the bishop because it would put some pressure on the d pawn in the center instead of taking it with the g pawn because it doesnt so much except open up the file for the rook which is also a possibility if he choose to take with the pawn but it still doesnt change the fact that we will be up 2 pawn.
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On October 10 2011 09:44 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On October 10 2011 09:04 dtvu wrote:I predict + Show Spoiler +, After which we are force to + Show Spoiler + 15. Re1 f5!
This line will cause us a bit of a problem since 16. Nxe4 will be met with 16... fxe giving black a half-opened f file and also effective wrestled back the centre control.
It's prob better to go 16. b4 in this case, but then 16... g5! 17.h3 h5
Black will just continue to push the pawns with his bishops behind.
. If black were to do that... + Show Spoiler + We can en passant (google it if you dont know what it is) and we be in better position imo. The Ba6 would basically favor us since we were planning to do that move anyways to get rid of the center atleast that what i would think.
So if he does ba6 into f5 we would en passant the f pawn and it would be more like this
16. 0-0, Ba6 17. Re1, f5 18. e5xf5, Bxf6 19. Nxe4, Pxe4 20. Rxe4, ???
From here we be in favorable position and up 2 pawn now. I dont think he would do this. He could of taken it with the pawn instead of the bishop but the result would be the same. I anticipate he take with the bishop because it would put some pressure on the d pawn in the center instead of taking it with the g pawn because it doesnt so much except open up the file for the rook which is also a possibility if he choose to take with the pawn but it still doesnt change the fact that we will be up 2 pawn.
You are right in that regard + Show Spoiler +18.e5xf5 would give us a clear lead
I guess Nxd2 will gain back the pawn after Bg5 if black wanted to
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Sorry I didn't make the move yesterday. I'm posting it now.
Done.
By the way - was that the move you expected?
Will send out reminders in an hour or two.
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On October 10 2011 10:44 Ng5 wrote: Sorry I didn't make the move yesterday. I'm posting it now.
Done.
By the way - was that the move you expected?
Will send out reminders in an hour or two.
I was expecting g5, but I thought you might play Ba6 first.
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I vote b4 as our next move. + Show Spoiler +we haven't got much space to move and Nxe4 is a bad move at this point as it will open up the f file for black.
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I was expecting Nxd2....but I guess that over and done with.
Anyways, ill cast my vote right away
15. e5xf5 (en passant)
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+ Show Spoiler +Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we invoke en passe with our pawn on e5? This would force ...Bd8, ...Bf8.
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On October 10 2011 11:04 dtvu wrote:I vote b4 as our next move. + Show Spoiler +we haven't got much space to move and Nxe4 is a bad move at this point as it will open up the f file for black.
Why not just....+ Show Spoiler + En passant? It our only chance to do it. No need to rush for the b4 yet imo. I dont see a reason too. We can do b4 right after.
If we en passant...
15. e5xf5, Bxf6 16. b4, Nxd2 17. Bxd2, ??
From here it depend on what he want to do and we have secured the b4 pawn as well. We also got rid of the knight. Of course our pawn in the center kinda weak but I dont really see any way for him to get rid of it. Also our bishop is finally out because we have stopped the pinned and is in good shape and the knight is gone!
If he doesnt take with bishop....
15. e5xf5, g7xf6 16. b4, Nxd2 17. Bxd2, f5 18. Ne5+, ???
From here we are still in good position as well and because he took with the pawn, he has no more connection pawn. His pawn formation is very weakly spaced out. I doubt he will do this move know that other wise he wants to go for a kill and end it right away. Since this does open up the rook to attack the g pawn on our castle. But I think we can defend it easily if we played it correctly.
Your worried about space to move but I dont think we need to worry about it because we are going to move our rook into the center and force a trade anyways. This will open up the game more once we get the tempo to do so.
On October 10 2011 11:10 GenesisX wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Correct me if I'm wrong, but can't we invoke en passe with our pawn on e5? This would force ...Bd8, ...Bf8.
+ Show Spoiler + We can, which is what i suggested but I dont think he would do Bd8 or Bf8 because he could just take the f6 pawn with the bishop and pressure the d4 pawn.
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