[D] Patch 1.4 and its implications - Page 9

On August 26 2011 03:51 rmAmnesiac wrote:


terran has been underepresented at masters lamost indefinitely for the past 8 months. they are the only race who can't sti back and win on pure macro and mostly a move compisitions? to stay level vs toss or zerg they have to harrass constantly and outmultitask them?

On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:


Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented?
Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp

On August 26 2011 04:04 dere wrote:

This is ridiculous. Terrans are also under represented in diamond and platinum. I suppose you're going to suggest that they're all in masters as well?



http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all

On August 26 2011 03:57 sleepingdog wrote:


Did I read your posts just right, do you REALLY complain about terrans being....underrepresented?
Well, yeah, in average masters maybe, because most of them are in grandmaster, herpderp

I've said this multiple times today: once terrans drop below 50-60% in GSL we can talk about them being even with the other races (still another step for being weaker)
Terran has dominated continuosly since release, not despite but because of the fact that you CAN use multi-pronged attacks/harass/etc.

On August 26 2011 04:09 Aletheia27 wrote:


your data suggests that all races are equal in masters...first off...

while true that they're underrepresented in diamond/plat

and over represented in GM >_>

On August 26 2011 03:54 awesomoecalypse wrote:


Because you're not thinking clearly.



This is, frankly, stupid. A major part of the problem with Protoss right now is that they are really, really inflexible. One some of their units are viable in most situations, and all of their units are expensive. They are hugely reliant on T3, and their harass options suck at most stages of the game.They have a few effective general strats which T and Z have fairly well figured out right now, and most Toss are trying to innovate, but the problem is that they just don't have that many good units. As you say, even though the Robo tree gets you 4 units, currently only 2 are fully viable. Immortals have a very narrow timing window of not sucking, and then they are viable against only specific builds. Warp Prisms can be effective, but due to their fragility strats built around them can fall apart with the slightest misclick.

This addresses that issue. As was seen with both Roaches and Archons, range buffs are hugely beneficial to a Unit's overall effectiveness. Especially if, as with Immortals, they are both slow as hell and do insane dps once they get in range. Immortal+Zealot will hard-counter every single Roach-Ling all-in. Just park your Immortals behind your Zealots, watch the Lings get mauled as they try to get through the Zealots, while your Immortal sits safely in the back, sniping Roaches who can't hit back. An Immortal will also be much, much more useful in defending against 1/1/1 builds.



Uh....you do realize that FG used to have like twice as long a root effect right? And they cut it in half and bumped the dps accordingly, at which point it became insanely powerful?

The DPS FG did to armored was 100% the problem. I mean, the Root effect is nice and all, but that has always been there, and in fact used to be better. All that has changed to make them better is higher dps. Now it is still fairly high, but not quite as crazy. That definitely helps.



How is it diminished? All of the stronger Blink rushes are built around hitting when +2 finishes, which is long after blink will finish pre or post patch. And nobody defends their base against DTs with Overseers anyway, they get like one spore crawler and let their queens do the rest.



This is idiotic. Unless you are playing for money, which you are not because you clearly don't know what you're talking about, something being "balanced" doesn't mean shit if it isn't fun, and current PvP is a total coinflip, which is unfun. The Immortal buff and the vision changes put an end to 4-gate, the blink timing delay means it will hit to late to stop a robo from getting enough Immortals to hold it off, meaning that PvP early and midgame will stabilize around robo. However, in the lategame, Guardian shield now works vs. Colossi fire and stacks with Immortal shiels, which combined with their improved range means they can actually get close enough to snipe Colossi, meaning 1-base Colossi wars are likely over.

This is a good thing. A matchup built around coinflip BO wins which if it gets past that point turns into 1-base blink all-ins or Colossi wars 90% of the time, is stupid. Changing that is a good thing.

On August 26 2011 04:32 galivet wrote:


First off, your petulantly insulting attitude and ad-homs don't make your arguments stronger; they just make you sound like a kid with a chip on his shoulder (perhaps with the added benefit of allowing you to feel like a "big man" on an internet forum). Anyway:

In PvT, you need AOE to combat large bio-balls. If you attempt to form some kind of HT/immortal composition, then you're doubly vulnerable to EMP -- it trains templar mana and eliminates the immortal hardened shield bonus. Collosus are still much more valuable outside of a two-base bunker bust that leverages immortals.

In PvZ, you still can't usefully mass them like you can roaches because they're much more expensive and take much longer to build. The +1 helps a little by making it easier to micro the 3-4 immortals that you can reasonably get. You're not going to suddenly see giant immortal balls in PvZ because they take too long and too much to build and they're easily countered by a spire tech-switch without the support of large numbers of stalkers and/or HT.

If I were to try and rebalance the PvZ midgame by tweaking infestors, my first choice would not be to adjust FG damage. I might look at the perma-snare ability of spammed FG, or the fact that it's not possible to dodge it like storm can be dodged. But FG damage just isn't a big deal; zealots and archons take forever to damage appreciably with FG. Infested terrans are a much bigger issue; 5 infestors can lob 40 infested terrans at a nexus, which can do over 11,000 damage before they despawn -- enough to kill the nexus, any cannons, workers, and even your whole army if you don't have splash damage when they hit. I'm talking about Destiny's playstyle here.

On the blink nerf: So what if the flavor-of-the-month "best" blink build is unaffected by this nerf? Now protoss can't even represent the threat that they might attack prior to +2. The consequence is that zerg knows he can safely drone for longer. This also breaks one-base blink stalker play on XNC which is also popular. The blink nerf effectively rules out a wide variety of earlier-hitting blink-pressure builds, thereby making it easier for zergs to predict how long they can drone in safety.

As for your PvP comments, I can tell you aren't a protoss and that you're talking out of your ass there. The consequences for PvP at all but the very highest levels of play are negligible.

Really, this patch has hardly anything of real interest for NA and EU protoss, and certainly isn't a significant protoss buff.

On August 26 2011 04:42 sleepingdog wrote:


You show me how you avoid getting the two of the slowest units in the game EMPed...
Immortal/HT was bad before and it will be bad after 1.4. The immortal buff doesn't suddenly make them good vs ghosts lol.

Nevertheless I expect more gateway/immortal/colossus-compositions, as the terran can't reasonably build both vikings and ghosts in high numbers early enough.

On August 26 2011 03:59 ImmortalTofu wrote:


I think thats race design though... I do guess its true in some ways however...

On August 25 2011 19:26 Scheme wrote:
3 BFH still one shot workers tho, so no difference in harassement!