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I posted this in another thread, but I think its relevant here:
Currently, Guardian Shield only applies to certain ranged attacks. As liquipedia says on the Guardian Shield page: Show nested quote +The effect is limited to ranged attacks; splash attacks are not subject to the reduction.
Certain units, most notably Colossi and Siege Tanks, completely ignore Guardian Shield. However, hidden among the new PTR notes (where it is interestingly classified as a bug fix rather than a buff--I guess certain units were never meant to bypass the shield) is this little gem: Show nested quote +Sentry Guardian Shield now correctly reduces damage from Hellion, Void ray, and Colossus attacks as well as the Siege Tank’s sieged attack.
This might seem minor, but it is actually pretty huge in a couple of situations. First, Zealots and Stalkers with Guardian shield protection will now take 7 Colossi shots to bring down rather than 6. This is pretty substantial, as it means that 3 Colossi (generally considered a critical mass number at which Gateway armies become nearly useless except to shield Colossi, which leads to "War of the Worlds" syndrome in lategame PvP) will no longer 2 shot groups of Zealots and Stalkers. Second, Guardian shield is the only damage-reducing effect in the game that stacks with The Immortals Hardened Shield. Immortals protected by GS take a maximum of 8 damage per attacks. This means that it now takes Tanks 12 shots to get through the hardened shield rather than 10, and it takes Colossi 6 shots rather than 5.When combined with its improved range, it should now be considerably easier to get an Immortal close to the P and T siege units in order to bring them down (which was, after all, the role it was designed for). I believe that this will help enormously with War of the Worlds in PvP, especially now that prism-dropping in your opponent's base is very viable. Opponents will need more Colossi before they hit the critical mass needed to melt Gateway armies, and getting your Immortals close to kill those Colossi will be much easier. I think it will also help a lot with 1/1/1 in PvT. For all that people bitch about Banshees, there's a reason that 1/1/1's vary hugely in what exact air support units they get (some get Ravens and Banshees, some just Banshees, some Cloakshees), but every single version includes a Siege Tanks. The attack just isn't as scary without it. Now that Siege Tanks deal less damage to Immortals (and the surrounding splash also deals less damage to the Gateway units) and Immortals have longer range, that Tank is a bit less scary.
Immortal+GS will now hardcounter Stalkers incredibly hard. 4-gate is now much, much easier to hold off, because they can't get vision if you FF the bottom of your ramp, and if you get an Immortal out you will wreck them.
All this combined with Blink coming later makes me think PvP is going to standardize around Robo-expand builds in the early game. But whats interesting is where things go from there--now that GS protects against Colossi and Immorals have good range, War of the Worlds doesn't strike me as a logical endgame, at least not teching directly to Colossi after you get one Immortal. So what happens in PvP in the mid and late game? I could definitely see Chargelot-Archon becoming more popular, and drop play will likely take off as well.
PvZ, I don't think pure-Roach compositions are gonna be too popular with the new Immortal. Actually, a good Zealot wall with an Immortal behind it will be all but impenetrable vs. Roach-Ling, since the Lings cant get past the Zealots, and the Immortal can sit comfortably behind them sniping Roaches. Hydras will be essential vs. Immortal+Gateway comps, which will make Protoss happy since Colossi are just one building away if you have Immortals, and Hydras die so easily to Colossi. "Deathballs" will be somewhat more viable against the semi-nerfed FG, although I still dont think well see a return to Cruncher-style a-moving Colossi and Void Rays. On the other hand, Blink was something Z QQed about more than any other ability, and now it hits a fair bit later. Not sure what to make about the new Ultra except Im glad we have improved Immorals to deal with them. I think its impossible to say right now how this will shake out, except that changes will be substantial.
PvT will be the most interesting. Lategame, MC-style HT+Prism play will be much more popular after this. I expect Storm drops in general to define Protoss play in the lategame. 1/1/1 should be fairly easy to hold, and there's less reason to fear 2-rax, and BFH is a bit easier to handle.
All in all, I'm very excited. The only thing I'm worried about is, as I said, Gateway+Immortal being too hard for Z to handle without Hydras because P can now just park Immortals behind Zealots and decimate Roach-Ling, because the timing window on Hydras is really narrow before Colossi come out, especially if you were playing Robo to begin with. I have a suspicion Zerg may need a Hydra buff before this all shakes out.
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Blink research change hasnt anything to do with PvZ . It mostly change for TvP when terran do no gas FE and P answer with blinkstalker semi-allin. For PvP is quite nice for fanboys of robobuilds because they can get maybe two immortals before first blink poke.
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Just tossing this in in reply to awesomoecalypse without a quote:
Linked to your post there in my OP with regards to the guardian shield. Being the big nonprotoss, I didnt realise the implications of this change were this huge.
With regards to the zealot/immortal timing: yes, this is definately a concern. However, keep in mind lings are so nice and fast, so it would come down to wether or not you can protect your immortals from zerglings while still keeping the fire on the roaches. I dont believe hydralisks will be the answer of most zergs, but rather attackupgrade roaches, some spine crawlers to help deal damage, and trying to get earlier but fewer infestors. Fungal completely penetrates hardened shields still. But you are right, zealot/immortal will be scary as early game pushes if you can prevent the zerg from getting a surround with pure lings. The only downside is that you sort of commit to it relying on the zerg to actually get roaches. Zealot/immortal will have a hard time handling pure ling into fast infestor.
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On August 25 2011 21:43 rpgalon wrote:
PvP is going from a micro-rush intensive matchup
to a macro-turtle intensive matchup
I'm all for a macro-turtle over "HERP we both 4 gated let's trade bases"
Also the Immortal buff is HUGE, it allows stalkers to tank zealors, for the immmortals while the immortals FF enemy stalkers. \o/
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On August 25 2011 18:54 Thraundil wrote:
Contaminate energy cost increased from 75 to 125.
Implications and reasoning: Contaminate is so strong especially in ZvZ. I think this is completely justified.
What do the rest of you guys think?
Would add that the decrease in Overseer cost also contributes to the increase in energy cost.
Its great to see some much needed changes all around. The Ultralisk is a particularly interesting one. Ultralisks being a huge cost & build time, there were large periods where Zerg was vulnerable to attack. The Ultralisk became is such a valuable unit that Zerg couldn't use as a sacrificial piece to break an entrenched opponent. Protoss and Terran had enough time to scout for tech changes as well as remax on effective hard counters like maruaders, immortals or collossi.
I also see the Spanishwa style coming back in more popularity.
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On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote:
I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!!
Do the math! :D
I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important.
Unupgraded Hellion damage (vs light) 14 (x3 : 42dmg kills drone, zergling)
OLD BFHellion damage (vs light) 24 (x2 : 48dmg kills drone, zergling)
NEW BFHellion damage (vs light) 19 (x2 : 38dmg kills zergling, NOT drone)
Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades
if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before)
I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
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Nothing for carrier ? Ok nvm ~~
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On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote:
I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!!
Do the math! :D I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important. Unupgraded Hellion damage (vs light) 14 (x3 : 42dmg kills drone, zergling) OLD BFHellion damage (vs light) 24 (x2 : 48dmg kills drone, zergling) NEW BFHellion damage (vs light) 19 (x2 : 38dmg kills zergling, NOT drone) Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before) I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions.
I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more .
150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea.
On August 26 2011 00:26 SaJa wrote:
Nothing for carrier ? Ok nvm ~~
don't beat the dead horse - let the poor carriers rest in peace
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On August 25 2011 23:41 Alpino wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 19:26 Scheme wrote:
3 BFH still one shot workers tho, so no difference in harassement! Oh so naive, it almost makes me happy.
Yeah I correct myself in the next post and you clearly didnt read it...
making ur post uselesss!!
( Pelo menos leia todo a discusao antes the comentar! =P )
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I love the immortal upgrade, but one problem I potentially see is the immortal's intrusion into the "6 range area/arc", which has been, up to now, dominated by the stalker. This might mean that immortals will have to shuffle around the stalkers (just like b4 when they got stuck in the back) and create a larger arc, which means less firing, or firing at the wrong targets (zlots, marines, etc.)
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On August 26 2011 00:29 sleepingdog wrote:Show nested quote +On August 26 2011 00:23 spbelky wrote:On August 25 2011 20:32 Psychobabas wrote:
I've been posting this on every thread about the patch!!!!!
Blue flame hellions still 2 shot a zergling! Nothing has changed in the Hellion v Zergling!!
Do the math! :D I'm just gonna requote this because i think it's that important. Unupgraded Hellion damage (vs light) 14 (x3 : 42dmg kills drone, zergling) OLD BFHellion damage (vs light) 24 (x2 : 48dmg kills drone, zergling) NEW BFHellion damage (vs light) 19 (x2 : 38dmg kills zergling, NOT drone) Basic analysis: if you're going for worker kills, you need 3 hellions, regardless of upgrades if you want to kill zerglings, you either need 3 hellions or 2 blue flame hellions (same as before) I would hope blizzard doesn't keep the upgrade cost at 150/150... it's almost not worth it anymore, from a pure resources standpoint, and then when you factor in the time you have to commit a techlab on your factory, when you could have a reactor? Totally not worth it. I'd rather have double the the hellions. I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more . 150/150 for a not so overwhelming damage upgrade does seem pretty meh in comparison - I like that Blizz tries to change the luck-based hellion wars in TvT, but this change really reduces the viability of the upgrade....making it cheaper would probably be a good idea. don't beat the dead horse - let the poor carriers rest in peace
Don't forget 50/50 concussive shells.
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I think that this is overall going to be a good patch. I like the Immortal buff and the Ultra buff. I think Immortals will be much more effective now and Ultras,units that I think is very effective in some situations, will be seen more often.
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On August 26 2011 00:29 sleepingdog wrote:
I agree - then again, the upgrade cost for terran is generally pretty screwed up and random. I mean, 100/100 for stim is ridiculously underpriced. People would probably even get it for 200/200 (this is what charge costs) and more .
Upgrades are not just about cost effectiveness. Some cheap upgrades are there because they lock things until certain timings/tech. For example blizzard probably will never change the 50/50 warpgate upgrade cost whereas it's probably the most cost effective upgrade in the game.
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Hmm mech seems to have been fucked again. NP is now way stronger, Tanks do much less vs P. Hellions weaker. I think were going to have to let mech die along with carriers.
However FG is now worse so i cant really complain 
Tbh my favorite is the Mothership buff. Everyone loves the mothership
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On August 25 2011 20:14 BadgerBadger8264 wrote:
Really hate the hellion nerf, it just feels like everytime terran find a way to use mech (siege tanks, thors, hellions), it gets smashed into the ground by Blizzard, like they only want terrans to go marine/tank and marine/marauder. Hellions weren't even overpowered aside from arguably TvT, which doesn't really matter, just means the TvT meta-game shifts. They were just usable in TvZ and TvP, and now their only use is (once again) getting out a couple of hellions early on against zerg and "hoping your BFH drop does good damage". Oh, btw, what people "hope" will change with this change is that you won't suddenly lose 30 workers if you miscontrol during a hellion drop, well, you still will, sorry. This just means they are simply no longer viable units in your main army. Oh well, guess it's back to hating all terran matchups as they're back to turtling only
Only usable? I think the Koreans at the GSL and the recent "Slayers Hellion Trend" proved that hellions are INSANELY strong against any race.
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Mutas are now stronger in zvz! Takes four perfect fungals or now 5 fungals total to kill a flock, which is a big deal!
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OP, some things that I thought were obvious but you left out:
- Barracks +5s is a scouting buff for other races above all else. That is the window where terran wants to get a factory but needs the marine to chase the scout away.
- Contaminate nerf is because overseers have gotten cheaper. No need to over analyse it.
- Unit vision on ramp: I thought blinking past bunkers was the problem (rather than blinking past forcefields which will still be possible as long as one unit is on the other side of the forcefield)
- Shields on warp prism: No, it is not so much to encourage drop play. It is to make warp prisms more used in mid battle: eg, ferrying high templars which protects them from EMP, instant forward pylons.
- Infernal preigniter change: Quite simple, they want to keep zerglings 2 shot and make workers 3 shot. Vehicle weapons will make a difference in worker killing efficiency. Agree that the upgrade wont pay for itself very well.
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On August 25 2011 20:00 gejfsyd wrote:Show nested quote +On August 25 2011 19:46 AA.spoon wrote:
blink change doesn't affect pvz at all. As an avid fan of blinkstalker play vs zerg, waiting 20sec more in pvz for blink is not going to affect me at all.
The trouble is they nerfed blink stalker play in pvp BADLY. None will be opening blink anymore, as the timing will give your opponent one more immortal, or dts. Combined with the immortal buff, this is awful for pvp. It will be robo vs robo all the way, all the time. Thats somehow true, but if more people opens robo, we may see more stargate play and more guessing/mindgames(since its impisiible to scout in pvp)
I don't understand your logic here: "if more people opens robo" then it will not be impossible to scout. Scouting will be easier.
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Overall seems like pretty solid changes but:
-Pre-Ignitor cost should be reduced for such a drastic nerf
-Infestors seem too strong in the mid-game and I'm not sure a FG DPS nerf is the right way to go about it
-Huge buff to Ultralisk build time, not sure what the effect will be. Seems a lot of people are sleeping on this one.
-I do believe the Warp Prism buff will encourage drop play. The mere fact it got buffed, regardless of what that buff is, will draw attention to it and I look forward to seeing it affect Protoss' currently fairly rigid playstyle.
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EPT
