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France13021 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote:
I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion. Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Zerg was able to win back in the days without infestors, but anyways reversing the queen buff would be a good start since it prevented zergs from going to the lategame as easily as nowadays.
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On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote:
I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion. Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
It's not our job to balance the game, we have to play it, even though a lot of pros could do a much better job in the place of David Kim and Dustin Browder. Which is not so hard. Besides like many other pros I've given my suggestions several times so I am not even sure why I'm answering this.
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Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
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On November 11 2012 18:47 aTnClouD wrote:
It's not our job to balance the game,
Every time a person retorts with, "Where are your ideas to solve X?", or something similar, I wonder if they ever stop to think...
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On November 11 2012 18:48 ButtCraft wrote:
Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
I would tentatively agree in the tvz matchup, but cheapening them for tvp might be problematic.
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So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
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On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote:
I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped.
I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Gee, imagine zerg really had to techswitch in late game against toss! Kinda the way the race is supposed to be played, as only zerg can tech switch easily and quickly. And god forbid you had to use banelings in late game against terran and mix your army, sort of the way terran has to do it.
You Zergs had it easy for a long time now. Terran got nerfed into oblivion and toss had its overpowered things removed, now it's your turn. And I pray to god that you guys will have to suffer the nerf wrath heavily because it's not funny anymore how Zergs beat equal or superior opponents with ease.
Nerf infestors and give Zergs some time to adapt. The skill requirement for Zerg might increase again.
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On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You must have missed the quote from Nestea. Please read the quote from Nestea amongst all the other comments.
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On November 11 2012 18:48 ButtCraft wrote:
Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
Are you serious you want Ghosts cheaper than they are? Protoss would be annihilated with cheap Ghosts running around at the 8- 9 min mark of the game. Put a bit thought into what you a saying
Ghost snipe were nerfed to hard, a few months ago, all it needs is Blizz to bump it back up a little to help Terran deal with the late game.
We have seesawed from mass ghost to mass infestor. SC2 biggest problem is the "mass ball " syndrome. Its either mass marines, mass stalker , mass infestor and it looks like its here to stay unfortunatly.
As to infestor, heres hoping that when HOTS comes out they make some real changes to it. Its sad that during the Lone Star Clash that a caster was laughing because a Zerg player made Hydras during the game this unit needs to be looked at too imho
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On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
This thread is just nonsense.
yeah progamers opinions are nonsense
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On November 11 2012 18:57 xelnaga_empire wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You must have missed the quote from Nestea. Please read the quote from Nestea amongst all the other comments.
So what does his comment change? It's just his opinion and you're just picking the single opinion that proofs your point, ignoring the other 5 comments. Also he only refers to Inf/BL which is only one part of the metagame. His comment doesn't say anything about Zerg's strength overall. I'm just saying that at the level of play of all of the cited players, there's simple no statistical proof that allows the conclusion that Zerg is so imba.
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On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote:
To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
basically this, although I agree with the fact that in the current metagame, bL infestor is too strong, because its to easy to reach lategame, so either nerf lategame armies or nerf spellcasters /aoe damage from being the bulk of the army (infestors /Colossus/archons/Sentries)
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the problem is that with infested terrans, broodlings and static defense it always seems like zerg has like 300-400 army supply, this is the core problem I feel.
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187 Posts
inb4 zerg whiners explaining how much these guys are clueless...
User was warned for this post
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On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced"
Rofl
Nice really bad basis
On November 11 2012 19:11 stickyhands wrote:
inb4 zerg whiners explaining how much these guys are clueless...
you're really late for that.
like really really really late
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Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
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France13021 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:16 Giantt wrote:
Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
They haven't figured it out, you are just way below their level I guess.
Because if they had figured it out, they would not be trashed by almost every same level zerg they encounter.
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On November 11 2012 18:52 zdfgucker wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote:
I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped.
I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races. Gee, imagine zerg really had to techswitch in late game against toss! Kinda the way the race is supposed to be played, as only zerg can tech switch easily and quickly. And god forbid you had to use banelings in late game against terran and mix your army, sort of the way terran has to do it. You Zergs had it easy for a long time now. Terran got nerfed into oblivion and toss had its overpowered things removed, now it's your turn. And I pray to god that you guys will have to suffer the nerf wrath heavily because it's not funny anymore how Zergs beat equal or superior opponents with ease. Nerf infestors and give Zergs some time to adapt. The skill requirement for Zerg might increase again.
Ant what exactly would you tech switch to? About half of the units that Zerg has are useless against P lategame. You can't make Hydras against AoE tech, Roaches just evaporate vs a maxed Toss army (even with better upgrades), Lings have too few life to handle the damage output, Ultras just get slaughtered if the Toss made any Immortals... just tell me to what you would techswitch if you face the typical lategam Toss army with Archons, Colossi, Blinkstalkers, Sentries and a mothership.
Just tell me how many games you have seen where Zergs have won lategame without using the dreaded BL/Festor combo- there should be next to none.
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On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race.
Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
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Blizzard please star to listen to the truth and go out of your isolation, watch progames and CHANGE something about the game to make it fair and balanced!
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EPT
