EPTPro Korean gamer (Code S & A) comments on Zerg - Page 4
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Acritter
Syria7637 Posts
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Roynalf
Finland886 Posts
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
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Chylith
Canada167 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:53 Laurens wrote: Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue. Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.) Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful. Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement. Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL) Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes. And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh. Don't get me wrong here, I think both PvZ and TvZ are huge issues right now. ;p Protoss' "viable allin" is only unbeatable when parting uses it and that's, to quote someone else, "because parting just never makes a mistake when executing it. ever." As for the mothership, that's not really a solution unless the zerg fucks up horribly and fails to properly split his units. So that's as much hoping for mistakes as terran does in the late game. | ||
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keglu
Poland485 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:17 FlukyS wrote: Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off. Can you be more biased? Counter to infestors is splitting but emp cant be countered by splitting? | ||
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Shebuha
Canada1335 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:55 avilo wrote: It's about time. LOL! Sorry, just sounds really great coming from you, no offence. Honestly, Zerg really does need some serious tweaking, and bitching about the game can be good to an extent, but everyone - from bronze to pro - needs to buck up and work hard to win. | ||
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Rescawen
Finland1028 Posts
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My_Fake_Plastic_Luv
United States257 Posts
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FlukyS
Ireland485 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:04 keglu wrote: Can you be more biased? Counter to infestors is splitting but emp cant be countered by splitting? Eh did you even read what I wrote, I said it was imbalanced in PvZ and ZvZ. And yes it is counted by splitting but still snipe is fine in that case and its still worth it. | ||
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mcc
Czech Republic4646 Posts
On November 11 2012 17:53 Laurens wrote: Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue. Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.) Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful. Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement. Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL) Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes. And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh. Because I thought we are talking about general design, not current metagame stats. It is not so long ago that Taeja had 70+% winrate against zerg. TvZ is much better design-wise than PvZ and thus easier to fix properly. The problem with PvZ is more fundamental and persists for much longer, it just got progressively worse for protoss over time not so quickly as TvZ. Illustrating it is just watching more skilled terrans/protoss play less skilled zergs in macro game. In both zergs win disproportionately, but in TvZ you can see that the skill difference has much bigger impact on the result than in PvZ. Ravens (unlike ghosts) are successfully used in late game. Protoss has basically one slightly stronger raven that can get neuralled and gg. To sum it up, winrates non-withstanding PvZ has fundamental flaws much deeper than TvZ and in the end as a spectator I care more about good design of the matchups than specific winrates some specific month. | ||
Poopi
France12904 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them. People forget so fast... I'm pretty sure that this was before the amulet HT nerf and when big maps got introduced to GSL, and yes at that time terrans struggled a lot. In fact, amulet was nerfed shortly after. | ||
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aTnClouD
Italy2428 Posts
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momonami5
United States109 Posts
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NesquiKGG
100 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion. Then tell me how Lucifron was able to 3-0 Nerchio and 4-1 Stephano?  | ||
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Prog455
Denmark970 Posts
On November 11 2012 16:13 happyness wrote: I agree, and really we shouldn't even be concerned with balance until it gets really out of hand(like when terran made up over half of Code S). Instead we should ask: is it good game design for a race to focus on massing a particular spellcaster for 90% of all games? Like 8 Zergs in ro16? | ||
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Poopi
France12904 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:27 NesquiKGG wrote: Then tell me how Lucifron was able to 3-0 Nerchio and 4-1 Stephano? I didn't see the games but I guess they played badly enough for it to happen. Plus LucifroN is the terran version of Stephano when the latter is at his top (ie : not losing games to NeOangel and the likes). | ||
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PopoChampion
Australia91 Posts
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion. Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races. | ||
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xelnaga_empire
627 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:37 PopoChampion wrote: Posting something like this is like posting a compilation of zerg players' complaints a long time ago. Compiling it doesn't make it any more valid. Also, showing MVP's stream from several months ago when, yes, the patch was the same, but the metagame was completely different, doesn't make any sense. Also, that screenshot was taken from when queens were still at their old range, so getting to late game was harder for zerg because of less creep and less defensive capabilities. If this is the kind of argument you are posing then I can say that Leenock was streaming only a few days ago, and when he opened 15 pool against a protoss going nexus first then forge then pylon as opposed to forge then gateway (this is greedier as it allows protoss to continue probe production sooner) the protoss walled off with two gateways so that Leenock's lings couldn't enter the base (he was getting away with being greedy). Leenock then typed "imba" and deleted it so that the stream could see. Clearly, protoss is imba, right? Nope, screenshot was taken after buffs were made to Queen. The screenshot was done with the latest balance changes, albeit, the new metagame hadn't deveoped yet. Regardless, there are quite a few comments from the pros and even Nestea chimes in. | ||
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BeyondCtrL
Sweden642 Posts
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion. You can double flank from the front with mass Ghosts and Ravens, because those two units will solve everything! Blizzard won't do anything about this because all they are focused on is whether the numbers are balanced. They are seemingly oblivious to the fact that Fungal is, regardless of its balance, a stupidly boring and frustrating spell - to players and spectators both. This point is further verified by their "solutions" for the current problems in the coming expansion; the Tempest might possibly maybe probably (not) solve some issues but it's not fun to use or watch. Abilities and units need to be balanced and fun - something that Blizzard seems to have completely forgotten about. The sad state of communication from Blizzard about the current meta-game and frankly on a general basis is disappointing to say the least. All they do is pop in once every three months and give some vague statement or two and go dark again. Perhaps they might indirectly nerf Fungal by giving rocks an additional point of armor? Who knows... | ||
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