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Hi. I am reading a growing number of pro Korean gamer comments in Code S and Code A about Zerg. I know we are not supposed to discuss balance changes at our level of play because it comes off as balance whining, but since these comments are from a variety of pro Korean players in Code S and Code A, please give it a read and a little thought. If the mods feel this is just another whine thread, feel free to lock it. However, if mods feel the pro Korean gamers in Code S and Code A (and there is a growing list of them) deserve to be listened to and deserve to have their point heard, please keep this open:
Axiom Ryung (Code S, round of 16 this season):
It sounds as if you didn't prepare against Zerg at all.
That is the case. TvZ is too difficult nowadays, and I feel very stressed because I keep losing against Zergs in practice. I didn't practice at all against Zerg for this group, and I only worked on my TvT and my TvP.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380835
CreatorPrime (Code S, round of 16 this season):
Zergs have been very strong recently.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=380282
NSH_jjakji (GSL champion and back to Code A this season):
Have you always had trouble against Zerg?
Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312
IMNestea (3 time GSL champion and back to Code A this season)
Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.
I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though. http://esfiworld.com/news/tig-interview-nestea-i-still-hold-big-desire-gaming
SamsungKHAN_JangBi (qualified for Code A this season):
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312
San (qualified for Code A this season):
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312
WoongjinStars_Flying (qualified for Code A this season):
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=381312
IMMVP (4 time GSL champion and Code S this season):
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zuqLW.jpg)
(this is from MVP's stream from several months ago, but applies to the current balance changes)
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This is nothing new. The only ones that are saying that it's okay are Zerg players.
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I'm just gonna go ahead and quote my whole post from another topic regarding this particular subject.
*Edit to add a little more context =D* The entire post I've quoted is more or less a compiled series of quotes from various code S player interviews that shows them talking about their opinions on how strong/imbalanced they believe zerg currently is.
On November 11 2012 15:56 Chylith wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On November 11 2012 15:16 tomatriedes wrote:I'm going to quote the relevant parts for those who can't be bothered looking through: Show nested quote +You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult. Show nested quote +There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
Show nested quote +What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so. Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder! I'm going to add a few quotes from that series of interviews that say something to the same effect, It should be noted that the quote belonging to TSL_Center isn't as directly saying he believes zerg is OP/too strong, however it's very heavily implying it. I'd also like to preface these quotes by noting that, although this is not necessarily the case, both the translators for these players and the players themselves can and might be heavily biased due to playing a race other than zerg or in the case of the translators preferring a race other than zerg and I myself certainly believe that zerg is too strong right now or at least very "broken" in how it plays mostly due to how infestors currently work. Quotes from the afformentioned interviews, with all credits belonging to ThisIsGame: Jjaki: + Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Have you always had trouble against Zerg?
NSH_jjakji: Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage. TSL_Center: + Show Spoiler + Interviewer: Many of the players living alongside the TSL Zerg aces have appeared to be downtrodden. How do you feel personally?
TSL_Center: I don't have any big problems myself. There are four players among the Zergs on our team who are particularly good. If you can just keep up a 50% win rate against those hyungs during practice, you begin to develop confidence that you won't lose. You don't feel crushed when you lose, and you become more confident whenever you win a game against them.
Interviewer: So what is your win rate?
TSL_Center: My win rate used to be good, but the hyungs have become much better, so it hasn't been as high recently (laughs). ST_Brain: + Show Spoiler + Interviewer: You made it to the final round without a single walkover.
ST_Brain: When I played today, my PvZs were my most difficult games. I couldn't think of good ways to win, so I often resorted to Immortal all-ins.
Interviewer: You've told us that you have trouble in PvZ, but you faced another Zerg in the Round of 4.
ST_Brain: During the semifinals, I won easily by using another Immortal rush, then attempting to construct a hidden expansion during the set afterwards.
This bit, also from the ST_Brain interview "may" show some bias on the part of the interviewer and I'm adding it more for the sake of objectivity than anything else, with what I consider some bias against zerg on the interviewer's part underlined: Interviewer: There are many Zergs taking up spots in the GSL due to how strong the race is at the moment, so your goals may be different this season. What are they?
ST_Brain: I would like to rise up high, but for now, my goal is to reach the Up & Downs and enter Code S using my skill. To conclude and add a bit of counterpoint I'd first like to add ST_Brain implies the great strength of the immortal/sentry allin in his section quoted above, and also add quotes from a zerg player with his thoughts on the infestor and a quote from one about his feelings of ZvP. Miya on the infestor: + Show Spoiler + Interviewer: There has been a lot of talk that Zerg has been strong lately. Miya: They say that they can't play the game because of Infestors, but there is no alternative for a Zerg player. I would like them to know that aside from the Infestor, the units that Zerg has aren't very strong. + Show Spoiler + I personally STRONGLY disagree with his sentiments here, having seen zergs perform quite well over the past couple years without any infestor use at all and even in recent tournaments using builds such as muta/ling/bane and roach pushes such as Stephano's. SKTelecomT1_Dark on ZvP: + Show Spoiler +Interviewer: What would you call your greatest stumbling block or hump?
SKTelecomT1_Dark: If I happen to reach Code S, I want to avoid a Protoss in my first match. Even today, I focused on practicing my ZvP but found out that there were almost no Protoss players in my group once I arrived.
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To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
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On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote:
To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
I agree, and really we shouldn't even be concerned with balance until it gets really out of hand(like when terran made up over half of Code S).
Instead we should ask: is it good game design for a race to focus on massing a particular spellcaster for 90% of all games?
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Well, even the pro gamers have spoken.
Is that not enough evidence, Blizzard?
Plus the fact so many Terrans are quitting the game.
.....
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Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
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On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote:
To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
Yes, pro gamers are going to be bias. Like other sports where teams complain about referees only when the call is against them. However, you can see that all the players are complaining about the same thing, the Zerg late game with BL/infestor. I mean if T players were complaining about P and some about Z and some P players were complaining about T and some about Z, then it would make sense.
Please also note that in the Code S group selections, no non zergs picked a Zerg player until there was only Zergs left. So they shows us that the Korean P and Ts are having problems dealing with Z. It is definitely a balance issue? Not necessarily. But it should something that should be looked into.
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
get ghosts lol when
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The infester is ridiculous. At the last MLG in one game 37 infesters were made for a comeback and they won the game.
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches.
As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
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I think its already pretty much universally accepted that Zerg is the stand-alone top race right now in sc2.. Even most top level professional Zerg players think so. You should have thrown some Stephano quotes in your original post here regarding his opinion on Zerg balance.
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To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
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On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote:
To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
How would you buff the Hydra?
I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
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On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
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854 Posts
I too, think that infestor's fungal needs a change. Holding a set of units in place seems imbalanced. Before, Zerg have to defend to build up a strong late game unit composition to win games. Now, they are strong early, mid, and late game. Watching life ZvT it seems like the T have very little window of opportunity to attack, due to creep spread and counters.
Blizzard buffed Z early game, but did not do anything about their late game. They should nerf fungals so that it does damage, and slow units instead of holding them in place.
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anyone watching Gumiho's stream right now? He's been harassing and rapid killing hatches but 50 fucking infestors just rape everything left and right despite how good gumiho is.
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On November 11 2012 16:30 FakeDeath wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote:
To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with. How would you buff the Hydra? I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
They get made in ZvZ sometimes. Although that trend is also on down trend due to infestor.
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On November 11 2012 16:26 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it. Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches. As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
Ha! fellow mate from Hong Kong?
As a Terran player myself, I would rather spend time figuring things out than asked for a favorable patch. We player should try our best to improve in a given situation. Thinking how the environment "SHOULD" change is nothing more than day dreaming.
But as a spectator, I think it is fine to speak out your mind if you find matches are boring. At the end of the day, spectators is why we have E-sports. ^^
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Good words. Korean progamers have more right to speak on these issues than anyone else...especially those in prominent positions, which is often why they avoid doing so. Seeing all this QQ points to something (ahem)...but it SHOULD still be taken with a grain of salt.
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EPT
