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On November 11 2012 19:18 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race. Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
Not sure if one Ro32->Ro16 statistic should be enough to prove a balance argument.
But yes, his 'proof' was bad too.
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I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
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On November 11 2012 19:14 zhurai wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced" Rofl Nice really bad basis
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing: Suggesting that a game should be balanced at the highest level of play and not at Gold league (where you probably play judging your comments).
On November 11 2012 19:18 SlixSC wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race. Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
This is just getting completely hilarious. What you write is just plain wrong. Go to Liquipedia and add up the race distributions for GSL Code S in RO16 2012 and what you'll get is T/P/Z 24/34/22. So Terran must be extremely imba, right?
The amount of stupidity that is being revealed in such threads is just mind-blowing. The OP is trying to make a point by citing top-level players stating Zerg is imba whereas at very top-level it obviously doesn't seem to be the case. It's just self-contradicting. Deal with it instead of whining.
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On November 11 2012 19:26 Cyber_Cheese wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 19:18 SlixSC wrote:On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race. Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument? Not sure if one Ro32->Ro16 statistic should be enough to prove a balance argument. But yes, his 'proof' was bad too.
Not saying it's proof of imbalance, even though I strongly agree with the korean progamers that zerg is in fact imbalanced.
I was simply pointing out that his "proof" would actually lead to a completely different conclusion than the one he had come to. Of course this single incident doesn't "prove" the imbalance of zerg. But you have to ask yourself, with Zerg winning the overwhelming majority of tournaments (be it major, premier or minor tournaments) at which point will we stop to view each and every one of these tournaments as "isolated incidents" and actually start to connect the dots, because call me crazy, but I personally find it hard to believe that Zergs are just randomly winning more tournaments than any other race for the last few months, you can clearly see a trend, but of course if people always make the argument that each and everyone of these tournaments is an "isolated event" then we might aswell just shoot ourselves in the head, because according to this line of reasoning no race can ever "win too much" even if they win every single tournament they are all just "isolated events" and you can't make any connections. It's mind-boggling.
On November 11 2012 19:32 .syd. wrote:]
This is just getting completely hilarious. What you write is just plain wrong. Go to Liquipedia and add up the race distributions for GSL Code S in RO16 2012 and what you'll get is T/P/Z 24/34/22. So Terran must be extremely imba, right?
The amount of stupidity that is being revealed in such threads is just mind-blowing. The OP is trying to make a point by citing top-level players stating Zerg is imba whereas at very top-level it obviously doesn't seem to be the case. It's just self-contradicting. Deal with it instead of whining.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about the current GSL. Zerg has a 60%+ win rate, that is undeniably true, the numbers you are posting are completely meaningless because they tell us nothing about how many players of each race were in the Ro32 to begin with. It's like saying "I wanna figure out which is stronger a monkey or a tiger" and then you watch the 1 tiger kill 5 monkeys and go "well I guess there were more monkeys so the monkeys are stronger".
That's not how it works. It's not about quantity. just because you have more at some point doesn't mean they are stronger, what matters is how many survive. If a Tiger kills 20 monkeys the tiger is obviously stronger, it might not be a perfect analogy but your logic fails extremely hard.
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On November 11 2012 19:32 .syd. wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 19:14 zhurai wrote:On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote:
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced" Rofl Nice really bad basis Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing: Suggesting that a game should be balanced at the highest level of play and not at Gold league (where you probably play judging your comments).
That league comment is nice and all [and is totally wrong] but:
1) that's irrelevant to what I'm saying
2) you apparently need to learn reading comprehension instead
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Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
It really feels imbalanced to lose against it, but its the same for a terran who gets killed a lot of worker but is still in game cuz of mule (and has more income then you)
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On November 11 2012 16:32 Chylith wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it. Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever. The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that. is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg. Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran. In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players. That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided. Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
Good post, I've seriously wondered why no Zerg player ever thought of this.
It's like Zerg never won a game ever before the infestor buff, because they make it sound that way with how Zerg would be completely shit house without the ridiculous fungal growth as it is.
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On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote:
Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
?
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On November 11 2012 19:32 bookake4 wrote:
I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
If you think it's bad as a Zerg player, can you imagine how the other races feel? There is a reason why people are upset.
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France12906 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote:
Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
Lol you do realize that there was a big infestor buff, right?
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On November 11 2012 19:32 bookake4 wrote:
I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
Wow, you're really cool. I hope more people read this comment.
It's totally true what you say - when I was maining Zerg before these last 2 seasons I had the same experience. When people would beat me it would be as if they thought, "GOOD, finally. I deserved that. ffs," but when I would win it was whining and hate A LOT of the time.
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It has to be quit some time since this change lol
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France12906 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:39 Suikakuju wrote:
It has to be quit some time since this change lol
Yeah and ever since the ghost nerf people have been complaining about lategame TvZ. It was just brought more into the light with the queen buff which kinda forced almost every TvZ on the current map-pool to go to the lategame.
edit : also the zergs speech such as : Z would be shit without infestor (don't they remember that zergs used to win before the infestor buff as well lol?) reminds me of how zergs used to tell that Ultras were absolute shit, when in fact they are not.
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Northern Ireland26184 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:16 Giantt wrote:
Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
Doesn't work. Just watch HerO and his ilk tearing Zergs apart with harassment over and over again, only to not be able to kill the BL/Infestor ball when the time comes. You can't even base race because Zergs can move their spines. Incidentally, why can they do that?
Plenty of Protoss have the chops to play that style, and do but it doesn't work anymore because Zergs don't let you snipe all their tech for free, or get a vortex off. Basically the two things you need to do to be able to successfully engage that army.
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On November 11 2012 19:39 Suikakuju wrote:
It has to be quit some time since this change lol
Which one of them? The one where fungal DPS was doubled or the one where damage against armored was buffed (it was boring when vikings or vrays sometimes killed broodlords.)
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Should have kept this OP in the balance whine thread. Nothing gonna be accomplished here but more balance whine.
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they changed it like a year ago....or something? lots of GomTvT since then xD
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My advice:
Fungal damage decrease around 4 damage, fungaled non-massive units are able to move (very very slow like queen offcreep). blink and stim are disabled if units are fungaled.
Broodlings 2/2 and 3/3 damage decrease around 1-2 damage.
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So many infestor threads. Just make fungal a slow (even if a heavy 75%+) and infested terran cost 5-10 more mana everything will be alright. Their job will be the same but they'll be less efficient without supporting units. HotS is coming anyway and unit redesigns can change the entire metagame.
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United Kingdom12024 Posts
On November 11 2012 19:38 Poopi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote:
Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so... Lol you do realize that there was a big infestor buff, right?
Also he doesn't seem to remember that when it was GomTvT it was at a time zerg never spammed infestors like they do now.
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EPT
