Hi. I am reading a growing number of pro Korean gamer comments in Code S and Code A about Zerg. I know we are not supposed to discuss balance changes at our level of play because it comes off as balance whining, but since these comments are from a variety of pro Korean players in Code S and Code A, please give it a read and a little thought. If the mods feel this is just another whine thread, feel free to lock it. However, if mods feel the pro Korean gamers in Code S and Code A (and there is a growing list of them) deserve to be listened to and deserve to have their point heard, please keep this open:
Axiom Ryung (Code S, round of 16 this season):
It sounds as if you didn't prepare against Zerg at all.
That is the case. TvZ is too difficult nowadays, and I feel very stressed because I keep losing against Zergs in practice. I didn't practice at all against Zerg for this group, and I only worked on my TvT and my TvP.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already.
NSH_jjakji (GSL champion and back to Code A this season):
Have you always had trouble against Zerg?
Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage.
IMNestea (3 time GSL champion and back to Code A this season)
Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.
I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though.
SamsungKHAN_JangBi (qualified for Code A this season):
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so.
WoongjinStars_Flying (qualified for Code A this season):
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
I'm just gonna go ahead and quote my whole post from another topic regarding this particular subject. *Edit to add a little more context =D* The entire post I've quoted is more or less a compiled series of quotes from various code S player interviews that shows them talking about their opinions on how strong/imbalanced they believe zerg currently is.
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Flying: Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
Jangbi: To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
San: It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so.
Get your finger out of your ass and do something Browder!
Note: Most of this post is in spoilers due to the massive length of everything I've either quoted or had to write, sorry if it's a tad hard to read due to that.
I'm going to add a few quotes from that series of interviews that say something to the same effect, It should be noted that the quote belonging to TSL_Center isn't as directly saying he believes zerg is OP/too strong, however it's very heavily implying it.
I'd also like to preface these quotes by noting that, although this is not necessarily the case, both the translators for these players and the players themselves can and might be heavily biased due to playing a race other than zerg or in the case of the translators preferring a race other than zerg and I myself certainly believe that zerg is too strong right now or at least very "broken" in how it plays mostly due to how infestors currently work. Quotes from the afformentioned interviews, with all credits belonging to ThisIsGame:
Interviewer: Have you always had trouble against Zerg? NSH_jjakji: Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage.
Interviewer: Many of the players living alongside the TSL Zerg aces have appeared to be downtrodden. How do you feel personally? TSL_Center: I don't have any big problems myself. There are four players among the Zergs on our team who are particularly good. If you can just keep up a 50% win rate against those hyungs during practice, you begin to develop confidence that you won't lose. You don't feel crushed when you lose, and you become more confident whenever you win a game against them. Interviewer: So what is your win rate? TSL_Center: My win rate used to be good, but the hyungs have become much better, so it hasn't been as high recently (laughs).
Interviewer: You made it to the final round without a single walkover. ST_Brain: When I played today, my PvZs were my most difficult games. I couldn't think of good ways to win, so I often resorted to Immortal all-ins. Interviewer: You've told us that you have trouble in PvZ, but you faced another Zerg in the Round of 4. ST_Brain: During the semifinals, I won easily by using another Immortal rush, then attempting to construct a hidden expansion during the set afterwards.
This bit, also from the ST_Brain interview "may" show some bias on the part of the interviewer and I'm adding it more for the sake of objectivity than anything else, with what I consider some bias against zerg on the interviewer's part underlined: Interviewer: There are many Zergs taking up spots in the GSL due to how strong the race is at the moment, so your goals may be different this season. What are they? ST_Brain: I would like to rise up high, but for now, my goal is to reach the Up & Downs and enter Code S using my skill.
To conclude and add a bit of counterpoint I'd first like to add ST_Brain implies the great strength of the immortal/sentry allin in his section quoted above, and also add quotes from a zerg player with his thoughts on the infestor and a quote from one about his feelings of ZvP.
Interviewer: There has been a lot of talk that Zerg has been strong lately. Miya: They say that they can't play the game because of Infestors, but there is no alternative for a Zerg player. I would like them to know that aside from the Infestor, the units that Zerg has aren't very strong.+ Show Spoiler +
I personally STRONGLY disagree with his sentiments here, having seen zergs perform quite well over the past couple years without any infestor use at all and even in recent tournaments using builds such as muta/ling/bane and roach pushes such as Stephano's.
Interviewer: What would you call your greatest stumbling block or hump? SKTelecomT1_Dark: If I happen to reach Code S, I want to avoid a Protoss in my first match. Even today, I focused on practicing my ZvP but found out that there were almost no Protoss players in my group once I arrived.
To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
I agree, and really we shouldn't even be concerned with balance until it gets really out of hand(like when terran made up over half of Code S).
Instead we should ask: is it good game design for a race to focus on massing a particular spellcaster for 90% of all games?
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
Yes, pro gamers are going to be bias. Like other sports where teams complain about referees only when the call is against them. However, you can see that all the players are complaining about the same thing, the Zerg late game with BL/infestor. I mean if T players were complaining about P and some about Z and some P players were complaining about T and some about Z, then it would make sense.
Please also note that in the Code S group selections, no non zergs picked a Zerg player until there was only Zergs left. So they shows us that the Korean P and Ts are having problems dealing with Z. It is definitely a balance issue? Not necessarily. But it should something that should be looked into.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches.
As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
I think its already pretty much universally accepted that Zerg is the stand-alone top race right now in sc2.. Even most top level professional Zerg players think so. You should have thrown some Stephano quotes in your original post here regarding his opinion on Zerg balance.
To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote: To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
How would you buff the Hydra?
I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I too, think that infestor's fungal needs a change. Holding a set of units in place seems imbalanced. Before, Zerg have to defend to build up a strong late game unit composition to win games. Now, they are strong early, mid, and late game. Watching life ZvT it seems like the T have very little window of opportunity to attack, due to creep spread and counters.
Blizzard buffed Z early game, but did not do anything about their late game. They should nerf fungals so that it does damage, and slow units instead of holding them in place.
anyone watching Gumiho's stream right now? He's been harassing and rapid killing hatches but 50 fucking infestors just rape everything left and right despite how good gumiho is.
On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote: To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
How would you buff the Hydra?
I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
They get made in ZvZ sometimes. Although that trend is also on down trend due to infestor.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches.
As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
Ha! fellow mate from Hong Kong?
As a Terran player myself, I would rather spend time figuring things out than asked for a favorable patch. We player should try our best to improve in a given situation. Thinking how the environment "SHOULD" change is nothing more than day dreaming.
But as a spectator, I think it is fine to speak out your mind if you find matches are boring. At the end of the day, spectators is why we have E-sports. ^^
Good words. Korean progamers have more right to speak on these issues than anyone else...especially those in prominent positions, which is often why they avoid doing so. Seeing all this QQ points to something (ahem)...but it SHOULD still be taken with a grain of salt.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches.
As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
Oh do not get me wrong, I agree that infestors need a tweak but that's only possible if we walk other avenue's to the late game which don't completely suck. A ghost isn't the best option, but well placed fungals would definatly help out. The problem is that people find that too hard and then decide to skip it all together. Same with a lot of people not making HT and feedbacking while fighting. The one reason in TvZ why I want infestors, is really against marine/marauder balls. If you have an equally skilled player who is capable of splitting their units, their marines become so insanely cost efficient that it's almost impossible to engage a fight decently. Note that this is my reasoning, not the one of others.
I see some light when I play beta, as the swarm hosts are pretty good as a unit, giving me more paths to walk. It's better than now in live, where in ZvP I will be dead if I do not get roaches. What's wrong with this?
It is the same story with the hydra. The unit has no place in ZvT, and after the 9-10 minute mark becomes worthless in ZvP due to their insanely fragile posture. I need to have a Lair to make them, and they technically do nothing. The only moment that I like to use hydra's is when I see that the Protoss has no AoE, and is going air. Which basicly is almost never.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.
1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.
2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.
As I said, Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell. Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.
Edit: I'd like to put this video in as support and let it speak for itself.
On Twitter Liquid`TLO wrote: I really hope Zerg gets nerfed soon, I don't have any opinion about balance, but all the whining annoys me more than anything..
I think I like TLO's twitter post the most. I'm getting tired of so much balance whining. Nerf Zerg!
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
If mvp had his way terran would be mowing down bases with mules with all his crying last year (as someone mentioned before). It just seems like majority of the well informed complaints are regarding the BL + infestor composition and not being able to deal with it head on. Good 'cause frankly in a straight up engagement BL + infestor is the toughest composition but that just means you cant run head first into engagements.
They need to get creative or maybe better yet all these team's coaches and shit need to get their act together and start thinking harder and come back in a bit more and complain if its still completely the same. As it stands there is no 100% domination through out everything and there is one moment in game (end game) where zerg can attain a nasty composition. Too bad you let them get that composition am I right?
On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote: To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
How would you buff the Hydra?
I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
Speed Upgrade at Lair.
The primary reason Hydras never get made is due to how impossible it is to run away with them. A speed upgrade would help so much, and would also allow Hydra splitting against things like Colossus AOE, storm dodging will now be possible with hydras, and you can split against banelings similar to marine splitting. That would be sick to watch.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
It sounds as if you didn't prepare against Zerg at all.
That is the case. TvZ is too difficult nowadays, and I feel very stressed because I keep losing against Zergs in practice. I didn't practice at all against Zerg for this group, and I only worked on my TvT and my TvP.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already.
Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage.
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so.
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
There was a time when there was as much complaining about Zerg. It was sometime after the nerfs to Ghost snipe. Back then it was mostly due to new metagame after the patch.
It's I think high time Blizzard revisit this problem as it's clear that Infestors are a big problem. In fact one of the biggest reasons I've almost watched next to no Starcraft for the past few months is that I really don't like seeing so many Infestors and unbeatable late game Zerg armies.
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
If mvp had his way terran would be mowing down bases with mules with all his crying last year (as someone mentioned before). It just seems like majority of the well informed complaints are regarding the BL + infestor composition and not being able to deal with it head on. Good 'cause frankly in a straight up engagement BL + infestor is the toughest composition but that just means you cant run head first into engagements.
They need to get creative or maybe better yet all these team's coaches and shit need to get their act together and start thinking harder and come back in a bit more and complain if its still completely the same. As it stands there is no 100% domination through out everything and there is one moment in game (end game) where zerg can attain a nasty composition. Too bad you let them get that composition am I right?
Is that what all the zergs did when terrans would hit them early game with hellion harass to deny creep and then marine tank timing? Or did zergs whine so Blizzard buffed Queens and Overlord. What do you think would happen if they reverted that patch. Do you think all the zergs would just say 'Oh well, I guess I will just have to get creative...'
DRG was able to win GSL so I should be fine, right? Players speaking about balance does not mean they aren't doing anything else to try to combat it.
And why did ghosts get nerfed? The zergs LET the Terran get that composition, right?
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is and that is broodlord infestor. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
Alot of the players making these comments aren't KESPA players: Ryung, Creator, JJakki, MVP. There is a clear consensus across the board between ESF and KESPA players.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
(which also means everyone who doesn't play random's opinion on game balance should be just taken with a grain of salt, but that's not exactly 100% true, nor is it applicable is most cases anyways as randoms may have one race they prefer over the others.)
On November 11 2012 17:09 FlukyS wrote: Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is, while the Zerg has broodlord infestor late game and since the infestor is so versatile it deals with a good lot of problems. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
So you arguement is that zergs don't bring overseers? So terrans have to HOPE that the Zerg screws up? Byun made ghost vs Leenock in GSTL and lost so there is your example. And for your Gumiho example, it was 1 game where he out multitasks the Zerg and the Zerg had his infestors out in the middle of no where with no support.
Flash also won against Life when Life had infestors. All he needed was for Life to a move 7-8 of them into tanks.
If you actually read the statement from pros, they all say the issue is they need a major error from the Zerg to win. If both sides are playing relatively error free, the Zerg has the advantage.
On November 11 2012 17:11 vthree wrote: And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off. The reason why Terrans are having trouble is entirely because they aren't using the unit that is designed to counter the unit they are having trouble with. Ghosts are fine other than snipe being useless. You don't even need to have 15 rax dedicated to ghost production either and if you are going bio you already have the tech labs on the barracks so its just a case of putting up a ghost academy and controlling well.
So you arguement is that zergs don't bring overseers? So terrans have to HOPE that the Zerg screws up? Byun made ghost vs Leenock in GSTL and lost so there is your example. And for your Gumiho example, it was 1 game where he out multitasks the Zerg and the Zerg had his infestors out in the middle of no where with no support.
Well im just saying at the moment there is no point in bringing overseers so 99% of Zergs out there will not have them with their first push. Gumiho actually used them a lot in TvZ recently and ive never seen him do badly with them.
Flash also won against Life when Life had infestors. All he needed was for Life to a move 7-8 of them into tanks.
Anyone can make a mistake and that game was lost entirely because of that moment which was a shame since he was in control before that. And since you mentioned it, I seem to remember a game later on from Flash where he out multitasked a Zerg completely on cloud kingdom I think it was and the caster noted "this is how you deal with late game Zerg". He killed expansion attempts, attacked multiple places and stretched the Zerg to his limit and won because he couldn't stop the harass with his slow units.
If you actually read the statement from pros, they all say the issue is they need a major error from the Zerg to win. If both sides are playing relatively error free, the Zerg has the advantage.
I did read them and I addressed what I thought, TvZ balanced they just need to stop being idiots, PvZ imbalanced but its not going to get fixed any time soon because it would seriously break everything if done incorrectly or it might not even be enough to fix it. ZvZ imbalanced because of the strength of the infestor and I really want a nerf to it because of that but again id be worried about muta play then so it would have to be thought about well and would risk breaking the entire match up.
On November 11 2012 17:09 FlukyS wrote: Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is and that is broodlord infestor. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
I love how you are trying to rationalize this, even though every single Terran and Protoss progamer agrees that Zerg is too strong and even some Zerg pro players have openly admitted that Zerg is too strong (moonglade on the recent state of the game). I think it's time for you to wake up, when everyone in the world disagrees with you it's probably because you are wrong, unless you are some kind of genius in which case I have to wonder why you haven't won a nobel prize yet or other scientific awards.
On November 11 2012 17:11 vthree wrote: And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off. The reason why Terrans are having trouble is entirely because they aren't using the unit that is designed to counter the unit they are having trouble with. Ghosts are fine other than snipe being useless. You don't even need to have 15 rax dedicated to ghost production either and if you are going bio you already have the tech labs on the barracks so its just a case of putting up a ghost academy and controlling well.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.
And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.
And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.
And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.
As long as Rain can roll DRG like that in the finals i see no issue with PvZ .
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.
And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.
As long as Rain can roll DRG like that in the finals i see no issue with PvZ .
Really? Now how many late game Zerg armies have heavy ling and how many TvZs do you see a baneling past the 15 minute mark? And to answer any X unit counters ghosts argument, if you lose your ghosts like that you aren't controlling right. Don't have all your ghosts on 1 hotkey and walk them out into death grab 2 send them forward or even better do what some protoss players do with storm and flank with them from the side im sure most Zergs wouldn't expect that at all.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.
1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.
2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.
As I said, Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell. Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.
To counter-point these in order: 1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.
2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.
Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.
3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.
And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.
How is it a smaller issue? Do you think terrans willing go late game vs Zerg? TvZ win rate was worse than PvZ in Code S. Ro16 just looked better for Terran since there was more terrans to begin with.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.
I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.
TvZ 8-23 code S PvZ 5-10
No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were: 1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ. 2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg. If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.
What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.
1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.
2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.
As I said, Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell. Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.
To counter-point these in order: 1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.
2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.
Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.
3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/
You just made my point very much yourself, thank you. Let me dissect it for a moment:
1. Zerg using relatively small numbers So I am forced to make an army with big numbers to deal with a single drop of 8 marines efficiently? If he drops 8 marines and makes 4-5 banelings not connect but die then that's already a win for the terran, provided he doesn't lose his medivac, in the economic aspect.
2. Unsupported banes My point exactly, without support of say an infestor, they are even more cost inefficient against good players and basicly become useless if you aren't lucky enough for them to mess up.
Really? Now how many late game Zerg armies have heavy ling and how many TvZs do you see a baneling past the 15 minute mark? And to answer any X unit counters ghosts argument, if you lose your ghosts like that you aren't controlling right. Don't have all your ghosts on 1 hotkey and walk them out into death grab 2 send them forward or even better do what some protoss players do with storm and flank with them from the side im sure most Zergs wouldn't expect that at all.
Yeah, that is because the Zerg players weren't creative and smart enough to make the units that countered ghosts. They would have owned Mvp if they only just tried to make lings and surround the ghosts. If they did that, they would have won more GSLs.
Flanking a deathball which has units which auto attack when you get in range?
Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.
I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.
1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.
2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.
As I said, Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell. Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.
To counter-point these in order: 1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.
2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.
Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.
3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/
You just made my point very much yourself, thank you. Let me dissect it for a moment:
1. Zerg using relatively small numbers So I am forced to make an army with big numbers to deal with a single drop of 8 marines efficiently? If he drops 8 marines and makes 4-5 banelings not connect but die then that's already a win for the terran, provided he doesn't lose his medivac, in the economic aspect.
2. Unsupported banes My point exactly, without support of say an infestor, they are even more cost inefficient against good players and basicly become useless if you aren't lucky enough for them to mess up.
Against drops you should have spores and spines late game, much like protoss uses cannons and terran turrets. Earlier on at least part of your army should be available to defend the drop, again much like terran has vikings and/or marines to deter and protoss leaves 6 stalkers at home for this.
"Unsupported banes" as in: the banes in the video, which again the games are a minumum of a YEAR old(two in the case of the Kyrix games), had no zergling support. If you have speedlings to surround marines or flank it doesn't much matter how well they split, you'll still clean up everything that's not a 200 supply army.(for which you should have either brood lords, ultras with bane/ling support, or at least a good bane/ling/muta composition for)
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.
TvZ 8-23 code S PvZ 5-10
No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were: 1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ. 2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg. If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.
What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.
Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue.
Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.)
Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful. Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement. Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL)
Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes.
And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh.
For a while now I've been opposed to saying things are "imbalanced", because that seems to always get people up in arms. So instead, I posit that Infestors are an example of bad game design, and Zerg should be redesigned and rebalanced to reduce reliance on them. They encourage homogenous army compositions, force turtling, destroy micro, and destroy any semblance of variation between matchups. They need to be heavily changed and replaced with other viable compositions. I know that I am still eagerly awaiting Hydralisk hit squads, among other things, and I hope that HotS will deliver in full.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.
TvZ 8-23 code S PvZ 5-10
No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were: 1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ. 2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg. If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.
What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.
Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue.
Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.)
Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful. Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement. Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL)
Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes.
And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh.
Don't get me wrong here, I think both PvZ and TvZ are huge issues right now. ;p Protoss' "viable allin" is only unbeatable when parting uses it and that's, to quote someone else, "because parting just never makes a mistake when executing it. ever." As for the mothership, that's not really a solution unless the zerg fucks up horribly and fails to properly split his units. So that's as much hoping for mistakes as terran does in the late game.
Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off.
Can you be more biased? Counter to infestors is splitting but emp cant be countered by splitting?
On November 11 2012 17:55 avilo wrote: It's about time.
LOL!
Sorry, just sounds really great coming from you, no offence.
Honestly, Zerg really does need some serious tweaking, and bitching about the game can be good to an extent, but everyone - from bronze to pro - needs to buck up and work hard to win.
I geniunely want to see what happens in the IM house when nestea and MVP debate about balance and how quickly it escalates to the the comparison of GSL championships.
infestas=boring... as a spectator and a player. Someone posted plaguu and dude, I really, really, really want that zerg plaguu spell. Seriously I used to watch TvZ vods in korean just for the casters combined yell "plaguu and gg"... Come on blizzard, plz take your heads out of your own asses. You are definitely not the brilliant people who perceive yourselves to be. Dustin Browder please be smarter and more flexible than you currently are... most of the community thinks you are a joke!
On November 11 2012 18:04 keglu wrote: Can you be more biased? Counter to infestors is splitting but emp cant be countered by splitting?
Eh did you even read what I wrote, I said it was imbalanced in PvZ and ZvZ. And yes it is counted by splitting but still snipe is fine in that case and its still worth it.
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote: I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.
TvZ 8-23 code S PvZ 5-10
No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were: 1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ. 2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg. If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.
What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.
Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue.
Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.)
Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful. Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement. Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL)
Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes.
And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh.
Because I thought we are talking about general design, not current metagame stats. It is not so long ago that Taeja had 70+% winrate against zerg. TvZ is much better design-wise than PvZ and thus easier to fix properly. The problem with PvZ is more fundamental and persists for much longer, it just got progressively worse for protoss over time not so quickly as TvZ. Illustrating it is just watching more skilled terrans/protoss play less skilled zergs in macro game. In both zergs win disproportionately, but in TvZ you can see that the skill difference has much bigger impact on the result than in PvZ.
Ravens (unlike ghosts) are successfully used in late game. Protoss has basically one slightly stronger raven that can get neuralled and gg. To sum it up, winrates non-withstanding PvZ has fundamental flaws much deeper than TvZ and in the end as a spectator I care more about good design of the matchups than specific winrates some specific month.
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
People forget so fast... I'm pretty sure that this was before the amulet HT nerf and when big maps got introduced to GSL, and yes at that time terrans struggled a lot. In fact, amulet was nerfed shortly after.
I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
Then tell me how Lucifron was able to 3-0 Nerchio and 4-1 Stephano?
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
I agree, and really we shouldn't even be concerned with balance until it gets really out of hand(like when terran made up over half of Code S).
Instead we should ask: is it good game design for a race to focus on massing a particular spellcaster for 90% of all games?
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
Then tell me how Lucifron was able to 3-0 Nerchio and 4-1 Stephano?
I didn't see the games but I guess they played badly enough for it to happen. Plus LucifroN is the terran version of Stephano when the latter is at his top (ie : not losing games to NeOangel and the likes).
Posting something like this is like posting a compilation of zerg players' complaints a long time ago. Compiling it doesn't make it any more valid. Also, showing MVP's stream from several months ago when, yes, the patch was the same, but the metagame was completely different, doesn't make any sense. Also, that screenshot was taken from when queens were still at their old range, so getting to late game was harder for zerg because of less creep and less defensive capabilities. If this is the kind of argument you are posing then I can say that Leenock was streaming only a few days ago, and when he opened 15 pool against a protoss going nexus first then forge then pylon as opposed to forge then gateway (this is greedier as it allows protoss to continue probe production sooner) the protoss walled off with two gateways so that Leenock's lings couldn't enter the base (he was getting away with being greedy). Leenock then typed "imba" and deleted it so that the stream could see. Clearly, protoss is imba, right?
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
On November 11 2012 18:37 PopoChampion wrote: Posting something like this is like posting a compilation of zerg players' complaints a long time ago. Compiling it doesn't make it any more valid. Also, showing MVP's stream from several months ago when, yes, the patch was the same, but the metagame was completely different, doesn't make any sense. Also, that screenshot was taken from when queens were still at their old range, so getting to late game was harder for zerg because of less creep and less defensive capabilities. If this is the kind of argument you are posing then I can say that Leenock was streaming only a few days ago, and when he opened 15 pool against a protoss going nexus first then forge then pylon as opposed to forge then gateway (this is greedier as it allows protoss to continue probe production sooner) the protoss walled off with two gateways so that Leenock's lings couldn't enter the base (he was getting away with being greedy). Leenock then typed "imba" and deleted it so that the stream could see. Clearly, protoss is imba, right?
Nope, screenshot was taken after buffs were made to Queen. The screenshot was done with the latest balance changes, albeit, the new metagame hadn't deveoped yet.
Regardless, there are quite a few comments from the pros and even Nestea chimes in.
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
You can double flank from the front with mass Ghosts and Ravens, because those two units will solve everything!
Blizzard won't do anything about this because all they are focused on is whether the numbers are balanced. They are seemingly oblivious to the fact that Fungal is, regardless of its balance, a stupidly boring and frustrating spell - to players and spectators both. This point is further verified by their "solutions" for the current problems in the coming expansion; the Tempest might possibly maybe probably (not) solve some issues but it's not fun to use or watch. Abilities and units need to be balanced and fun - something that Blizzard seems to have completely forgotten about.
The sad state of communication from Blizzard about the current meta-game and frankly on a general basis is disappointing to say the least. All they do is pop in once every three months and give some vague statement or two and go dark again. Perhaps they might indirectly nerf Fungal by giving rocks an additional point of armor? Who knows...
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Zerg was able to win back in the days without infestors, but anyways reversing the queen buff would be a good start since it prevented zergs from going to the lategame as easily as nowadays.
On November 11 2012 18:20 aTnClouD wrote: I get eye cancer whenever I see people posting on tl solutions on how to deal against infestors. Top tier progamers know what they are talking about and the current win rates speak for themselves alone. Your opinion on the game is almost irrelevant compared to theirs. Everything has been tried over and over and it doesn't work, yet random noobs pop out and go like "derp progamers can counter so easily with flank and ghosts I am so smart111". Also what the interviews hint the most is not only the fact zerg is overpowered but also that it's way easier to play since most of them say that an equal skill level zerg doesn't lose. This is way worse than just having a slightly unbalanced unit in my opinion.
Still, the answers by terran players (and yourself) on how to fix this issue for Zerg are hardly productive in most cases. All we get is things like "make the race harder to play" and "remove infestors". It's a very rare case that any progamer provides a solution to the problem, because let's face it: remove the BL/Infestor synergy (or nerf it), and Zerg wil become significantly weaker late- and midgame because the Infestor is currently the unit 90% of Zerg strategy is designed around. That's like removing/ heavily nerfing the medivac or the siege tank. I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
It's not our job to balance the game, we have to play it, even though a lot of pros could do a much better job in the place of David Kim and Dustin Browder. Which is not so hard. Besides like many other pros I've given my suggestions several times so I am not even sure why I'm answering this.
Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
On November 11 2012 18:48 ButtCraft wrote: Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
I would tentatively agree in the tvz matchup, but cheapening them for tvp might be problematic.
So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote: I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Gee, imagine zerg really had to techswitch in late game against toss! Kinda the way the race is supposed to be played, as only zerg can tech switch easily and quickly. And god forbid you had to use banelings in late game against terran and mix your army, sort of the way terran has to do it.
You Zergs had it easy for a long time now. Terran got nerfed into oblivion and toss had its overpowered things removed, now it's your turn. And I pray to god that you guys will have to suffer the nerf wrath heavily because it's not funny anymore how Zergs beat equal or superior opponents with ease.
Nerf infestors and give Zergs some time to adapt. The skill requirement for Zerg might increase again.
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You must have missed the quote from Nestea. Please read the quote from Nestea amongst all the other comments.
On November 11 2012 18:48 ButtCraft wrote: Coming from a terran player, the problem with the TvZ matchup is the heavy mineral cost of the ghost and/or the massability of infestors.
Sure, Terran has a counter to the infestor, but there isn't enough time/money to make enough ghosts in time to counter these big midgame infestor zergling armies.
The average infestor build has 5-8 infestors by 10:00-11:00. Infestors are so large that emp is lucky to hit 2 of them.
Conservatively, I think you need at least 5 ghosts to deal properly with 8 infestors (the zerg can micro too!)
The problem with making 5 ghosts by 10:00 or 11:00 is the cost. You simply won't have any minerals for marines. Ghosts are just way too expensive for how good of a unit they are imo.
Are you serious you want Ghosts cheaper than they are? Protoss would be annihilated with cheap Ghosts running around at the 8- 9 min mark of the game. Put a bit thought into what you a saying
Ghost snipe were nerfed to hard, a few months ago, all it needs is Blizz to bump it back up a little to help Terran deal with the late game.
We have seesawed from mass ghost to mass infestor. SC2 biggest problem is the "mass ball " syndrome. Its either mass marines, mass stalker , mass infestor and it looks like its here to stay unfortunatly.
As to infestor, heres hoping that when HOTS comes out they make some real changes to it. Its sad that during the Lone Star Clash that a caster was laughing because a Zerg player made Hydras during the game this unit needs to be looked at too imho
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You must have missed the quote from Nestea. Please read the quote from Nestea amongst all the other comments.
So what does his comment change? It's just his opinion and you're just picking the single opinion that proofs your point, ignoring the other 5 comments. Also he only refers to Inf/BL which is only one part of the metagame. His comment doesn't say anything about Zerg's strength overall. I'm just saying that at the level of play of all of the cited players, there's simple no statistical proof that allows the conclusion that Zerg is so imba.
On November 11 2012 16:07 Alokiya wrote: To be fair, Korean pros are often fairly hyperbolic when they speak about balance. Mvp said throughout 2011 that terran was the weakest race, or he lacked confidence because his opponent's race is so strong. You have to take a lot of balance statements with a grain of salt unless specifics are given, because really, it's little more than whining without them.
basically this, although I agree with the fact that in the current metagame, bL infestor is too strong, because its to easy to reach lategame, so either nerf lategame armies or nerf spellcasters /aoe damage from being the bulk of the army (infestors /Colossus/archons/Sentries)
the problem is that with infested terrans, broodlings and static defense it always seems like zerg has like 300-400 army supply, this is the core problem I feel.
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced"
Rofl
Nice really bad basis
On November 11 2012 19:11 stickyhands wrote: inb4 zerg whiners explaining how much these guys are clueless...
Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
On November 11 2012 19:16 Giantt wrote: Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
They haven't figured it out, you are just way below their level I guess. Because if they had figured it out, they would not be trashed by almost every same level zerg they encounter.
On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote: I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Gee, imagine zerg really had to techswitch in late game against toss! Kinda the way the race is supposed to be played, as only zerg can tech switch easily and quickly. And god forbid you had to use banelings in late game against terran and mix your army, sort of the way terran has to do it.
You Zergs had it easy for a long time now. Terran got nerfed into oblivion and toss had its overpowered things removed, now it's your turn. And I pray to god that you guys will have to suffer the nerf wrath heavily because it's not funny anymore how Zergs beat equal or superior opponents with ease.
Nerf infestors and give Zergs some time to adapt. The skill requirement for Zerg might increase again.
Ant what exactly would you tech switch to? About half of the units that Zerg has are useless against P lategame. You can't make Hydras against AoE tech, Roaches just evaporate vs a maxed Toss army (even with better upgrades), Lings have too few life to handle the damage output, Ultras just get slaughtered if the Toss made any Immortals... just tell me to what you would techswitch if you face the typical lategam Toss army with Archons, Colossi, Blinkstalkers, Sentries and a mothership. Just tell me how many games you have seen where Zergs have won lategame without using the dreaded BL/Festor combo- there should be next to none.
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race.
Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
Blizzard please star to listen to the truth and go out of your isolation, watch progames and CHANGE something about the game to make it fair and balanced!
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race.
Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
Not sure if one Ro32->Ro16 statistic should be enough to prove a balance argument. But yes, his 'proof' was bad too.
I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced"
Rofl
Nice really bad basis
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing: Suggesting that a game should be balanced at the highest level of play and not at Gold league (where you probably play judging your comments).
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race.
Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
This is just getting completely hilarious. What you write is just plain wrong. Go to Liquipedia and add up the race distributions for GSL Code S in RO16 2012 and what you'll get is T/P/Z 24/34/22. So Terran must be extremely imba, right?
The amount of stupidity that is being revealed in such threads is just mind-blowing. The OP is trying to make a point by citing top-level players stating Zerg is imba whereas at very top-level it obviously doesn't seem to be the case. It's just self-contradicting. Deal with it instead of whining.
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
You are quite the funny one, you cite the GSL Ro32 trying to prove that there is no imbalance and conveniently ignore the Ro16, in which, just by the way, Zerg is the most represented race.
Zerg was the least represented race in the Ro32 but they are now the most represented race in the Ro16. Do you know what this means? It means they were significantly more succesful than the other two races. As a matter of fact, the TvZ win rate in the GSL Ro32 is bigger than 60% in favor of Zerg. Yet you are using the GSL Ro32 to make an argument for how Zerg isn't imbalanced. I mean don't you see how this is a self-defeating argument?
Not sure if one Ro32->Ro16 statistic should be enough to prove a balance argument. But yes, his 'proof' was bad too.
Not saying it's proof of imbalance, even though I strongly agree with the korean progamers that zerg is in fact imbalanced.
I was simply pointing out that his "proof" would actually lead to a completely different conclusion than the one he had come to. Of course this single incident doesn't "prove" the imbalance of zerg. But you have to ask yourself, with Zerg winning the overwhelming majority of tournaments (be it major, premier or minor tournaments) at which point will we stop to view each and every one of these tournaments as "isolated incidents" and actually start to connect the dots, because call me crazy, but I personally find it hard to believe that Zergs are just randomly winning more tournaments than any other race for the last few months, you can clearly see a trend, but of course if people always make the argument that each and everyone of these tournaments is an "isolated event" then we might aswell just shoot ourselves in the head, because according to this line of reasoning no race can ever "win too much" even if they win every single tournament they are all just "isolated events" and you can't make any connections. It's mind-boggling.
On November 11 2012 19:32 .syd. wrote:]
This is just getting completely hilarious. What you write is just plain wrong. Go to Liquipedia and add up the race distributions for GSL Code S in RO16 2012 and what you'll get is T/P/Z 24/34/22. So Terran must be extremely imba, right?
The amount of stupidity that is being revealed in such threads is just mind-blowing. The OP is trying to make a point by citing top-level players stating Zerg is imba whereas at very top-level it obviously doesn't seem to be the case. It's just self-contradicting. Deal with it instead of whining.
What are you talking about? I'm talking about the current GSL. Zerg has a 60%+ win rate, that is undeniably true, the numbers you are posting are completely meaningless because they tell us nothing about how many players of each race were in the Ro32 to begin with. It's like saying "I wanna figure out which is stronger a monkey or a tiger" and then you watch the 1 tiger kill 5 monkeys and go "well I guess there were more monkeys so the monkeys are stronger".
That's not how it works. It's not about quantity. just because you have more at some point doesn't mean they are stronger, what matters is how many survive. If a Tiger kills 20 monkeys the tiger is obviously stronger, it might not be a perfect analogy but your logic fails extremely hard.
On November 11 2012 18:52 .syd. wrote: So you're citing GSL-level Non-Zergs as a proof that Zerg is imba? Funnily, if you look at the particular Code S race distributions, then there's no sign of Zerg imbaness whatsoever. Even after the infamous Queen buff, the race distributions have even been pretty balanced. Considering the RO32 race distributions in 2012, then Zerg is even the less represented race.
This thread is just nonsense. Almost all of the cites come from players who cannot live up to their old achievements anymore, and just simply blame it on imbalance.
basically you're post says "lol basically players (that are playing in a 'best of' situation) results are fairly spread out evenly in race distributions, therefore the game is balanced"
Rofl
Nice really bad basis
Yes, that's exactly what I'm doing: Suggesting that a game should be balanced at the highest level of play and not at Gold league (where you probably play judging your comments).
That league comment is nice and all [and is totally wrong] but: 1) that's irrelevant to what I'm saying 2) you apparently need to learn reading comprehension instead
Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
It really feels imbalanced to lose against it, but its the same for a terran who gets killed a lot of worker but is still in game cuz of mule (and has more income then you)
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
Good post, I've seriously wondered why no Zerg player ever thought of this.
It's like Zerg never won a game ever before the infestor buff, because they make it sound that way with how Zerg would be completely shit house without the ridiculous fungal growth as it is.
On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote: Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
On November 11 2012 19:32 bookake4 wrote: I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
If you think it's bad as a Zerg player, can you imagine how the other races feel? There is a reason why people are upset.
On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote: Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
Lol you do realize that there was a big infestor buff, right?
On November 11 2012 19:32 bookake4 wrote: I don't really want to join the balance discussion, but I just wanted to post that all this negativity lately is really making it hard to enjoy games. In twitch chats all you see is Zerg OP spam, no matter what situation a Zerg wins in. I've had just about every ladder win end with the person ranting at me, even when I don't make infestors. This is a toxic environment and it is making it hard for me to continue enjoying a franchise I've been playing for 12 years.
I will fully admit there's a bit of a problem, and that two people of the same skill level the Zerg will usually come out on top. But it's not nearly bad enough that the community has to be turned into this ugly ball of negativity. There is still usually a solid racial distribution with the home stretch of tourneys. Of course there are some tournaments with heavy Zerg showings, but Protoss dominated OSL and WCS Korea. Things are probably going to stay the same with WoL since it's in the deadzone before HoTS release. Can we please just try to enjoy WoL's last tournaments without all of this other bullshit?
Wow, you're really cool. I hope more people read this comment.
It's totally true what you say - when I was maining Zerg before these last 2 seasons I had the same experience. When people would beat me it would be as if they thought, "GOOD, finally. I deserved that. ffs," but when I would win it was whining and hate A LOT of the time.
On November 11 2012 19:39 Suikakuju wrote: It has to be quit some time since this change lol
Yeah and ever since the ghost nerf people have been complaining about lategame TvZ. It was just brought more into the light with the queen buff which kinda forced almost every TvZ on the current map-pool to go to the lategame.
edit : also the zergs speech such as : Z would be shit without infestor (don't they remember that zergs used to win before the infestor buff as well lol?) reminds me of how zergs used to tell that Ultras were absolute shit, when in fact they are not.
On November 11 2012 19:16 Giantt wrote: Zergs are boxed in to playing infestor only builds because of stupidly weak hydras and mutas working only if your opponent fell asleep - of course that eventually most will figure out how to use them to their maximum potential and it would seem imbalanced - after all it took 2 years of practice. Let Terrans and Protoss players sweat a while figuring out solutions. I play on EU GM level and can tell you that the top Terrans have figured it out. For Protoss I think the issue is non-existent - players need to change their mindset away from the "before broodlord push - fingers crossed it works" to more balanced style of pokes, harrasment with macro and tech behind.
Doesn't work. Just watch HerO and his ilk tearing Zergs apart with harassment over and over again, only to not be able to kill the BL/Infestor ball when the time comes. You can't even base race because Zergs can move their spines. Incidentally, why can they do that?
Plenty of Protoss have the chops to play that style, and do but it doesn't work anymore because Zergs don't let you snipe all their tech for free, or get a vortex off. Basically the two things you need to do to be able to successfully engage that army.
On November 11 2012 19:39 Suikakuju wrote: It has to be quit some time since this change lol
Which one of them? The one where fungal DPS was doubled or the one where damage against armored was buffed (it was boring when vikings or vrays sometimes killed broodlords.)
My advice: Fungal damage decrease around 4 damage, fungaled non-massive units are able to move (very very slow like queen offcreep). blink and stim are disabled if units are fungaled. Broodlings 2/2 and 3/3 damage decrease around 1-2 damage.
So many infestor threads. Just make fungal a slow (even if a heavy 75%+) and infested terran cost 5-10 more mana everything will be alright. Their job will be the same but they'll be less efficient without supporting units. HotS is coming anyway and unit redesigns can change the entire metagame.
On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote: Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
Lol you do realize that there was a big infestor buff, right?
Also he doesn't seem to remember that when it was GomTvT it was at a time zerg never spammed infestors like they do now.
On November 11 2012 18:40 RageCommodore wrote: I mean what would you buff to make up for the infestor with fungal and IT spawn? BL's would be basically useless against modern Protoss play because it would become so hard to protect them from Blinkstalkers/Vortex, hell even Storms or VR's (which would become viable vs Zerg again). Also vs Terran, what prevents Terrans from a) endlessly stutter stepping vs Ultras or b) stimming under Brood Lords? I understand that the Infestor is way too strong in it's current form an that there needs to be a nerf, but as you said, I'm just a noob and don't really know how the issue could be helped. I just can't hear it anymore that progamers are just stating "Zerg is ridiculous and needs to be made harder to play" without providing any ideas on how to change Zerg in the detail without making it significantly inferior to other races.
Gee, imagine zerg really had to techswitch in late game against toss! Kinda the way the race is supposed to be played, as only zerg can tech switch easily and quickly. And god forbid you had to use banelings in late game against terran and mix your army, sort of the way terran has to do it.
You Zergs had it easy for a long time now. Terran got nerfed into oblivion and toss had its overpowered things removed, now it's your turn. And I pray to god that you guys will have to suffer the nerf wrath heavily because it's not funny anymore how Zergs beat equal or superior opponents with ease.
Nerf infestors and give Zergs some time to adapt. The skill requirement for Zerg might increase again.
Ant what exactly would you tech switch to? About half of the units that Zerg has are useless against P lategame. You can't make Hydras against AoE tech, Roaches just evaporate vs a maxed Toss army (even with better upgrades), Lings have too few life to handle the damage output, Ultras just get slaughtered if the Toss made any Immortals... just tell me to what you would techswitch if you face the typical lategam Toss army with Archons, Colossi, Blinkstalkers, Sentries and a mothership. Just tell me how many games you have seen where Zergs have won lategame without using the dreaded BL/Festor combo- there should be next to none.
+1. But i guess we should try to ignore all the suggestions of bronze P/T :D
OT: I have 2 sc2 accounts EU/KR and i get my "builds" (more like ideas of i see X --> make Y) from the GSL. I have to say, in the last month i only really enjoyed Life's ZvT, cause he uses mutas and has GREAT mapcontrol.
The rest of the matchups are just Infestor Wars. I am a bad player (like all of us), but even i manage to reach almost all the unit benchmarks i get from the GSL videos (ofc you dont get as much pressure in KR diamond). When i build my 10 spines at the watchtower on daybreak i know P is fucked. When i spread my BLs for like 20s (cause my micro sucks), i know thor splash is not enough and i roll the terran.
As a zerg you can only ignore your limited unit choices so long and i stopped playing all together. If nothing changes in the current HotS build (Immobile Lurker-Hosts, Hydra speed at hive and still glasscannons and i really dont know why i should build more then 1 viper when i can have 1 BL for almost the same price), i wont buy it ofc and just hope sc2 dies off quickly, so that blizz cant milk the loyal fanbase any longer.
On November 11 2012 19:36 Suikakuju wrote: Funny thing for me is that when it was GomTvT or vP all day long no one cried about infestor/broodlords being imbalanced. And they didnt even change something about those units. they´re in game since beginning.
I dont like them because I don´t like the idea of units casting/shooting/spawning units, but thats what they did to Zerg in Sc2 so...
Lol you do realize that there was a big infestor buff, right?
Also he doesn't seem to remember that when it was GomTvT it was at a time zerg never spammed infestors like they do now.
Yeah it was like koreans discovered infestors when Stephano made his splash. Like it was some sort of new thing even though Destiny, Nerchio, Stephano and probably a lot of other foreign zergs used it a lot.
On November 11 2012 19:44 Suikakuju wrote: they changed it like a year ago....or something? lots of GomTvT since then xD
Balance problems never go away with this game. There will always be something that is OP. If they buff or nerf X, there will be a Y somewhere else that becomes too strong or weak. The problem is, they designed specific builds to kill certain other builds, and when you start nerfing out those builds then the stuff they were supposed to counter becomes too strong. I don't feel this is what happened with the infestor specifically, I think they just buffed the unit when it didn't need it. Zerg players always were uncreative, they just never figured out how to utilize it before the huge damage buffs. I mean now it doesn't exactly take much thought to go for an infestor style strategy, they work as a "counter everything" unit. They basically removed the strategy element behind the infestor when they buffed it so much.
I've just got an idea, the real problem is BL infestor & zergs say they need infestors really hard. Let's nerf BL so. I think it's not really the damages, it's the fact that you have to back when there are so many broodlings + fungals to block ground units. Either reduce broodlings duration or walk over them as colossi walk over other units. They would gain tons of dps in later case but the opponent would gain more maneuvrability.
On November 11 2012 19:44 Suikakuju wrote: they changed it like a year ago....or something? lots of GomTvT since then xD
Balance problems never go away with this game. There will always be something that is OP. If they buff or nerf X, there will be a Y somewhere else that becomes too strong or weak. The problem is, they designed specific builds to kill certain other builds, and when you start nerfing out those builds then the stuff they were supposed to counter becomes too strong. I don't feel this is what happened with the infestor specifically, I think they just buffed the unit when it didn't need it. Zerg players always were uncreative, they just never figured out how to utilize it before the huge damage buffs. I mean now it doesn't exactly take much thought to go for an infestor style strategy, they work as a "counter everything" unit.
Were people seriously whining that much before Queen + Overlord buff? Was infestor weaker? No, you just couldn't freeride into midgame.
Casters is Starcraft II have always been way too strong. They are supposed to be support units that take some skill and multitasking to control. Before the KA amulet patch high templars were too strong and too much of a panic button unit. The ghost also was before EMP radius got patched. Now it's the infestors turn.
Another thread about infestors ? Don't we already have 3 of them like the Dustin one, the solution to infestor and now this one ? I know the korean pros opinion is really important but can't we group all of this in one thread ? :p Besides people keep repeating the same things over and over in every thread !
Blizzard promptly nerfed the Ghost into the ground because it "countered all the tier 3 Zerg units and Terrans were massing them". Well Infestors counter everything in the game and are both the best mid tier unit for Zerg and the best late game unit. How is that fair or interesting to watch?
You watch games like the ones in the NASL where Dark gets 35-40 infestors and just bludgeons his opponent to death with infested terrans and it's a little bit sickening. Remove the snare from Fungal, increase the energy cost on infested terrans and increase the supply cost of Infestors to 3 as a start. I mean you blindly threw in the 5 queen range with little testing so that the meta game shifted over night, how about you throw this in and let the Zergs sink or swim like T&P have had to?
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zuqLW.jpg)
.![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DrgMn.jpg)
