• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 09:23
CEST 15:23
KST 22:23
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting6[ASL20] Ro4 Preview: Descent11Team TLMC #5: Winners Announced!3[ASL20] Ro8 Preview Pt2: Holding On9Maestros of the Game: Live Finals Preview (RO4)5
Community News
Weekly Cups (Oct 6-12): Four star herO65.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8)77Weekly Cups (Sept 29-Oct 5): MaxPax triples up3PartinG joins SteamerZone, returns to SC2 competition325.0.15 Balance Patch Notes (Live version)119
StarCraft 2
General
Revisiting the game after10 years and wow it's bad 5.0.15 Patch Balance Hotfix (2025-10-8) TL.net Map Contest #21: Voting The New Patch Killed Mech! Ladder Impersonation (only maybe)
Tourneys
Crank Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams LiuLi Cup - September 2025 Tournaments SC4ALL $6,000 Open LAN in Philadelphia Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Master Swan Open (Global Bronze-Master 2)
Strategy
Custom Maps
External Content
Mutation # 495 Rest In Peace Mutation # 494 Unstable Environment Mutation # 493 Quick Killers Mutation # 492 Get Out More
Brood War
General
Map with fog of war removed for one player? BW caster Sayle BW General Discussion Pros React To: BarrackS + FlaSh Coaching vs SnOw After 20 seasons we have a lot of great maps
Tourneys
[ASL20] Semifinal A [ASL20] Semifinal B SC4ALL $1,500 Open Bracket LAN [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Relatively freeroll strategies Current Meta BW - ajfirecracker Strategy & Training Siegecraft - a new perspective
Other Games
General Games
Dawn of War IV Stormgate/Frost Giant Megathread Nintendo Switch Thread ZeroSpace Megathread Path of Exile
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion LiquidDota to reintegrate into TL.net
League of Legends
Heroes of the Storm
Simple Questions, Simple Answers Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug Heroes of StarCraft mini-set
TL Mafia
SPIRED by.ASL Mafia {211640} TL Mafia Community Thread
Community
General
US Politics Mega-thread Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine Russo-Ukrainian War Thread Men's Fashion Thread Sex and weight loss
Fan Clubs
The herO Fan Club! The Happy Fan Club!
Media & Entertainment
[Manga] One Piece Anime Discussion Thread Movie Discussion!
Sports
2024 - 2026 Football Thread Formula 1 Discussion MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
SC2 Client Relocalization [Change SC2 Language] Linksys AE2500 USB WIFI keeps disconnecting Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Recent Gifted Posts
Blogs
Inbreeding: Why Do We Do It…
Peanutsc
From Tilt to Ragequit:The Ps…
TrAiDoS
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 1801 users

Pro Korean gamer (Code S & A) comments on Zerg - Page 3

Forum Index > Closed
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
November 11 2012 08:19 GMT
#41
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-11 08:22:19
November 11 2012 08:21 GMT
#42
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.

And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.
mcc
Profile Joined October 2010
Czech Republic4646 Posts
November 11 2012 08:26 GMT
#43
On November 11 2012 17:21 vthree wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.

And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.

That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.
raga4ka
Profile Joined February 2008
Bulgaria5679 Posts
November 11 2012 08:27 GMT
#44
On November 11 2012 17:26 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:21 vthree wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.

And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.

That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.


As long as Rain can roll DRG like that in the finals i see no issue with PvZ .
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-11 08:29:10
November 11 2012 08:28 GMT
#45
On November 11 2012 17:27 raga4ka wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:26 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:21 vthree wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.

And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.

That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.


As long as Rain can roll DRG like that in the finals i see no issue with PvZ .


You mean only win pre-infestor broodlord?
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
Terranist
Profile Blog Joined March 2009
United States2496 Posts
November 11 2012 08:31 GMT
#46
terrans just need to make ravens.
The Show of a Lifetime
FlukyS
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Ireland485 Posts
November 11 2012 08:31 GMT
#47
On November 11 2012 17:18 vthree wrote:

What? Ghosts can be countered by lings and banes.


Really? Now how many late game Zerg armies have heavy ling and how many TvZs do you see a baneling past the 15 minute mark? And to answer any X unit counters ghosts argument, if you lose your ghosts like that you aren't controlling right. Don't have all your ghosts on 1 hotkey and walk them out into death grab 2 send them forward or even better do what some protoss players do with storm and flank with them from the side im sure most Zergs wouldn't expect that at all.
Chylith
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada167 Posts
November 11 2012 08:32 GMT
#48
On November 11 2012 16:46 Aelonius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 16:32 Chylith wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.

As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.

Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.

Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.

The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.

Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.

In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.

That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.

Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.


I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.

1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.

2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.

As I said,
Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell.
Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.

Edit:
I'd like to put this video in as support and let it speak for itself.


To counter-point these in order:
1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.

2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.

Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.

3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/
Goddamnit this is the most retarded thing I will read all week and it's only fucking tuesday. ~Hawk
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
November 11 2012 08:33 GMT
#49
On November 11 2012 17:26 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:21 vthree wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


Ravens against infestors? It is pretty much the same as mothership. You pray that they don't get fungaled.

And Protoss actually have a timing. The only Terran timing now is the 11/11.

That is why you also have other units beside ravens. And I said it is smaller issue, not that it is not the issue. Point was that just rolling back the old ghost won't solve this.


How is it a smaller issue? Do you think terrans willing go late game vs Zerg? TvZ win rate was worse than PvZ in Code S. Ro16 just looked better for Terran since there was more terrans to begin with.
Champi
Profile Joined March 2010
1422 Posts
November 11 2012 08:35 GMT
#50
I'm glad they're speaking out too. I hope blizzard notice this thread. thanks for making it
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4550 Posts
November 11 2012 08:39 GMT
#51
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.

TvZ 8-23 code S
PvZ 5-10
Canucklehead
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada5074 Posts
November 11 2012 08:40 GMT
#52
Even Nestea thinks zerg broodlords/infestors is op.

http://esfiworld.com/news/tig-interview-nestea-i-still-hold-big-desire-gaming

Nestea

Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.

I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though.
Top 10 favourite pros: MKP, MVP, MC, Nestea, DRG, Jaedong, Flash, Life, Creator, Leenock
winthrop
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
Hong Kong956 Posts
November 11 2012 08:42 GMT
#53
and dont forget DRG
Incredible Miracle
Chylith
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada167 Posts
November 11 2012 08:43 GMT
#54
On November 11 2012 17:39 Laurens wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.

TvZ 8-23 code S
PvZ 5-10

No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were:
1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ.
2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg.
If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.

What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.
Goddamnit this is the most retarded thing I will read all week and it's only fucking tuesday. ~Hawk
Griffith`
Profile Joined September 2010
714 Posts
November 11 2012 08:43 GMT
#55
please fire david kim.
griffith.583 (NA)
Aelonius
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Netherlands432 Posts
November 11 2012 08:45 GMT
#56
On November 11 2012 17:32 Chylith wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 16:46 Aelonius wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:32 Chylith wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.

As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.

Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.

Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.

The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.

Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.

In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.

That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.

Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.


I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.

1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.

2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.

As I said,
Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell.
Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.

Edit:
I'd like to put this video in as support and let it speak for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90U9RCLOcak

+ Show Spoiler +

To counter-point these in order:
1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.

2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.

Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.

3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/


You just made my point very much yourself, thank you.
Let me dissect it for a moment:

1. Zerg using relatively small numbers
So I am forced to make an army with big numbers to deal with a single drop of 8 marines efficiently? If he drops 8 marines and makes 4-5 banelings not connect but die then that's already a win for the terran, provided he doesn't lose his medivac, in the economic aspect.

2. Unsupported banes
My point exactly, without support of say an infestor, they are even more cost inefficient against good players and basicly become useless if you aren't lucky enough for them to mess up.
''The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: 'I'm from the government and I'm here to help.''—Ronald Reagan
vthree
Profile Joined November 2011
Hong Kong8039 Posts
November 11 2012 08:48 GMT
#57
On November 11 2012 17:31 FlukyS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:18 vthree wrote:

What? Ghosts can be countered by lings and banes.


Really? Now how many late game Zerg armies have heavy ling and how many TvZs do you see a baneling past the 15 minute mark? And to answer any X unit counters ghosts argument, if you lose your ghosts like that you aren't controlling right. Don't have all your ghosts on 1 hotkey and walk them out into death grab 2 send them forward or even better do what some protoss players do with storm and flank with them from the side im sure most Zergs wouldn't expect that at all.


Yeah, that is because the Zerg players weren't creative and smart enough to make the units that countered ghosts. They would have owned Mvp if they only just tried to make lings and surround the ghosts. If they did that, they would have won more GSLs.

Flanking a deathball which has units which auto attack when you get in range?
xelnaga_empire
Profile Joined March 2012
627 Posts
November 11 2012 08:49 GMT
#58
On November 11 2012 17:40 Canucklehead wrote:
Even Nestea thinks zerg broodlords/infestors is op.

http://esfiworld.com/news/tig-interview-nestea-i-still-hold-big-desire-gaming

Show nested quote +
Nestea

Next question. I want to know what you are thinking of the current metagame in Starcraft 2.

I was once called the 'Great Detective', but only because there weren't many strategies at that time. I could see what strategy the opponent would do only by looking at his unit count. Nowadays a lot of matches have been played out and many interesting and unusual builds and strategies have came out, which makes it more difficult to predict. Although better mechanics are also important, I think Zerg's Broodlord and Infestor army is too strong. I don't know about ZvT, but in some maps they are way too strong in ZvP. Daybreak is a good example. Even though I am a big whiner for Zerg, I honestly think this composition is imbalanced. Solutions for this strategy should come out pretty soon though.


Thanks, I added this to the list.
Chylith
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada167 Posts
November 11 2012 08:49 GMT
#59
On November 11 2012 17:45 Aelonius wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:32 Chylith wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:46 Aelonius wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:32 Chylith wrote:
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote:
Miya hit the nail on the head.

As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong.
However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.

Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.

Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.

The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.

Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.

In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.

That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.

Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.


I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.

1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.

2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.

As I said,
Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell.
Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.

Edit:
I'd like to put this video in as support and let it speak for itself.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=90U9RCLOcak

+ Show Spoiler +

To counter-point these in order:
1. All maps do infact allow for good flanks, assuming you have proper map vision which as zerg you should have due to creep spread, overlord placement, ling placement, watchtower control, etc. You also have the option to use mutalisks to snipe tanks while drawing the terran elsewhere with lings or brood lords in the late game to force an unsiege. A good ling flank will actually create a massive headache for any terran regardless thanks to tanks ability to damage terran's own troops.

2. You haven't actually made a good counterargument against forcefields, however I even said in my previous post I think they're currently not great either. Just not anywhere close to as strong as infestors. However again, good flanks and forcefield bating, or even catching a protoss out in the open(with that map vision you should have naturally as zerg.) Will really help wreck a protoss relying on forcefields.

Amusingly, the parting immortal all-in you cite as being strong because of forcefields is actually primarily countered either by muta builds, a good flank and/or catching the protoss as he moves out, or just careful defense with lings roaches and spines while delaying as long as possible. Infestors are known to be one of the less optimal builds to deal with this allin.

3. The video you've posted consists mostly of games that are a year old or older, and shows things such as a zerg running small numbers of unsupported banes basically on A-move into very well microed marines. So I don't know what you hope to prove from that. =/


You just made my point very much yourself, thank you.
Let me dissect it for a moment:

1. Zerg using relatively small numbers
So I am forced to make an army with big numbers to deal with a single drop of 8 marines efficiently? If he drops 8 marines and makes 4-5 banelings not connect but die then that's already a win for the terran, provided he doesn't lose his medivac, in the economic aspect.

2. Unsupported banes
My point exactly, without support of say an infestor, they are even more cost inefficient against good players and basicly become useless if you aren't lucky enough for them to mess up.

Against drops you should have spores and spines late game, much like protoss uses cannons and terran turrets. Earlier on at least part of your army should be available to defend the drop, again much like terran has vikings and/or marines to deter and protoss leaves 6 stalkers at home for this.

"Unsupported banes" as in: the banes in the video, which again the games are a minumum of a YEAR old(two in the case of the Kyrix games), had no zergling support. If you have speedlings to surround marines or flank it doesn't much matter how well they split, you'll still clean up everything that's not a 200 supply army.(for which you should have either brood lords, ultras with bane/ling support, or at least a good bane/ling/muta composition for)
Goddamnit this is the most retarded thing I will read all week and it's only fucking tuesday. ~Hawk
Laurens
Profile Joined September 2010
Belgium4550 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-11-11 08:54:28
November 11 2012 08:53 GMT
#60
On November 11 2012 17:43 Chylith wrote:
Show nested quote +
On November 11 2012 17:39 Laurens wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:19 mcc wrote:
On November 11 2012 17:05 scarper65 wrote:
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.

TvZ is actually the smaller issue. Terrans at least have ravens so there is a potential late game in TvZ that can be attempted with reasonable success rates. PvZ is one big all-in fest, because no Protoss will go into late game willingly.


lol bullshit, TvZ is definitely worse.

TvZ 8-23 code S
PvZ 5-10

No comment one way or another regarding which is worse, however all those rates show is that there were:
1. less PvZ played in code S than TvZ.
2. that protoss won more games relative to terran vs zerg.
If protoss won all 5 of those games with immortal/sentry allins for example, that would actually prove his point of PvZ being one big "all-in fest" quite nicely.

What I don't agree with however is that TvZ is a smaller issue. I think both matchups are quite flawed right now and ravens having potential late game is quite inaccurate due to the massive amount of gas and bases needed to acquire enough ravens to beat a brood/infestor deathball relative to how many it takes to build up that same brood/infestor deathball.


Yeah for sure, I just get really annoyed when people claim PvZ is more of an issue.

Those 8 terran wins were mostly 2rax or the zerg fucking up (e.g. RorO leaving 6 ultras + the rest of his army in his nydus.)

Protoss at least has a viable allin (unbeatable, according to the creator of the build), terran only has 11/11 which isn't nearly as succesful.
Then in the lategame protoss has a hero unit that can help them win the engagement.
Not to mention they can beat zerg before lategame anyway (Rain 4-1 DRG OSL)

Terran has nothing vs the zerg lategame, we have to hope for zerg mistakes.

And now some clueless people will quote and say raven/ghost, sigh.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
OSC
12:00
King of the Hill #227
WardiTV664
IndyStarCraft 117
iHatsuTV 17
Liquipedia
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
Lowko376
Reynor 246
IndyStarCraft 117
ProTech68
LamboSC2 67
StarCraft: Brood War
Britney 30295
Hyuk 6264
Calm 6182
Rain 2820
Flash 2193
firebathero 1556
Soma 825
EffOrt 629
Mini 550
ZerO 448
[ Show more ]
BeSt 437
Light 413
Stork 381
PianO 284
Snow 243
Larva 232
Hyun 222
Last 185
hero 98
Soulkey 97
Mind 95
Pusan 94
Nal_rA 83
JYJ73
Mong 65
Rush 61
Barracks 58
Backho 58
sorry 51
Shinee 47
zelot 35
Free 35
sas.Sziky 34
Killer 34
Aegong 24
Terrorterran 18
yabsab 17
Movie 14
SilentControl 8
Dota 2
qojqva3556
XcaliburYe510
syndereN266
Counter-Strike
allub166
Heroes of the Storm
XaKoH 54
Other Games
summit1g6729
singsing2109
olofmeister1421
B2W.Neo799
hiko539
DeMusliM334
crisheroes254
Sick144
Fuzer 109
oskar95
Mlord15
Rex14
ZerO(Twitch)8
Organizations
StarCraft: Brood War
UltimateBattle 920
StarCraft 2
Blizzard YouTube
StarCraft: Brood War
BSLTrovo
sctven
[ Show 11 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• LaughNgamezSOOP
• Migwel
• sooper7s
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• TFBlade512
Upcoming Events
Wardi Open
21h 37m
CranKy Ducklings
1d 20h
Safe House 2
2 days
Sparkling Tuna Cup
2 days
Safe House 2
3 days
Tenacious Turtle Tussle
6 days
The PondCast
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

CSL 2025 AUTUMN (S18)
WardiTV TLMC #15
HCC Europe

Ongoing

BSL 21 Points
ASL Season 20
C-Race Season 1
IPSL Winter 2025-26
EC S1
Thunderpick World Champ.
CS Asia Championships 2025
ESL Pro League S22
StarSeries Fall 2025
FISSURE Playground #2
BLAST Open Fall 2025
BLAST Open Fall Qual
Esports World Cup 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall 2025
BLAST Bounty Fall Qual
IEM Cologne 2025

Upcoming

SC4ALL: Brood War
BSL Season 21
BSL 21 Team A
RSL Offline Finals
RSL Revival: Season 3
Stellar Fest
SC4ALL: StarCraft II
CranK Gathers Season 2: SC II Pro Teams
eXTREMESLAND 2025
ESL Impact League Season 8
SL Budapest Major 2025
BLAST Rivals Fall 2025
IEM Chengdu 2025
PGL Masters Bucharest 2025
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2025 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.