On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Infestors can be tweaked a bit without making them useless. Terrans still make bunkers and marines even after bunker and barracks were nerf. Protoss still make HTs. Zergs still make roaches.
As for the ghosts, ghosts need to go to the frontlines to land EMPs and if Zerg has detection, ghosts are vulnerable to lings, banes, broodlings and fungals. And you need quite a few EMPs if there are 7-8 infestors due to their size. That is why you do not see ghosts being made that much.
Oh do not get me wrong, I agree that infestors need a tweak but that's only possible if we walk other avenue's to the late game which don't completely suck. A ghost isn't the best option, but well placed fungals would definatly help out. The problem is that people find that too hard and then decide to skip it all together. Same with a lot of people not making HT and feedbacking while fighting. The one reason in TvZ why I want infestors, is really against marine/marauder balls. If you have an equally skilled player who is capable of splitting their units, their marines become so insanely cost efficient that it's almost impossible to engage a fight decently. Note that this is my reasoning, not the one of others.
I see some light when I play beta, as the swarm hosts are pretty good as a unit, giving me more paths to walk. It's better than now in live, where in ZvP I will be dead if I do not get roaches. What's wrong with this?
It is the same story with the hydra. The unit has no place in ZvT, and after the 9-10 minute mark becomes worthless in ZvP due to their insanely fragile posture. I need to have a Lair to make them, and they technically do nothing. The only moment that I like to use hydra's is when I see that the Protoss has no AoE, and is going air. Which basicly is almost never.
On November 11 2012 16:17 Aelonius wrote: Miya hit the nail on the head.
As a zerg player, I agree that infestors have the potential to be too strong. However it's two ways. I never see terrans getting ghosts anymore to deal with them.
Also what Miya said, I agree on. We can't play without the infestor as when we do, the chance of us losing to a lot of positional stuff is big. Example: Mass marine vs speedbanes when they split well. Doesn't work without fungal. Blink vs Roach/Ling, same story. So unless this is changed and we become less dependent on fungal/IT, we will remain needing it.
Like I said in my post I heavily disagree with this sentiment, having seen zergs play and win quite well over the past two years and in current tournaments using no infestors whatsoever.
The reason terran doesn't often get ghosts vs infestors + Show Spoiler +
which I don't think is actually correct but I have no proof one way or another regarding that.
is due to the absolutely massive size of infestors making EMP relatively useless since you won't hit more than one or two per emp. Snipe is equally useless as the ghosts get fungaled or killed trying to get close enough to snipe an infestor being properly controlled by a zerg.
Finally in the case of your two examples, a good flank with speedlings in a marine vs bane battle will cause the zerg to win quite cost effectively. If the zerg doesn't spend the apm and micro to set up a flank or a similar maneuver then the terran who had the apm and micro to split well should win that battle. What you're advocating in that example is that the zerg shouldn't be required to micro as well as the terran.
In your roach/ling vs blink it's basically the same story you're right. A good zerg player should surround the stalkers with lings and move right into them with roaches, once again if you do that you'll win quite cost effectively. If forcefields are in the mix, yes it's slightly different. In that instance you'll need to either have burrow for your roaches or bait forcefields and flank properly. Once again, whoever micros comes out ahead, assuming equal macro from both players.
That's one of the big issues many people have with the infestor, it actually totally nullifies things like marine splits, blink micro, etc. Meaning zerg can simply F click and A move their army into the fungaled units It's very one sided.
Even forcefields, which I agree aren't perfect, allow you to bait them and win using flanks, massive units, burrow micro, or targetfiring sentries with small packs of units. Such as 3-4 roaches in zerg's case.
I would like to make a long rant about this in response but I'll make it short.
1. Yes, I am supposed to make decent flanks but even then it'll be a hard one because not all the maps allow for effective flanking if the enemy sets up a good tankline as terran. It's much less cost efficient than what a T has to invest, even with micro from both sides.
2. Forcefields, do not get me started on those. The amount of bullocks that spawns from that ability is astounding. As a protoss, all you need/want is those chokes and small surface area's, so most maps are really annoying to engage. Why do you think it's nearly unstoppable to do a Parting Immortal all-in? There's a very good reason and units like the infestors are needed for that kind of situation.
As I said, Infestors are too strong, but only can be changed if the rest of Zerg's balance is adapted aswell. Sure, there are people who win without them, but most of those matches the other side got completely outplayed before that moment even happened.
Edit: I'd like to put this video in as support and let it speak for itself.
On Twitter Liquid`TLO wrote: I really hope Zerg gets nerfed soon, I don't have any opinion about balance, but all the whining annoys me more than anything..
I think I like TLO's twitter post the most. I'm getting tired of so much balance whining. Nerf Zerg!
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
If mvp had his way terran would be mowing down bases with mules with all his crying last year (as someone mentioned before). It just seems like majority of the well informed complaints are regarding the BL + infestor composition and not being able to deal with it head on. Good 'cause frankly in a straight up engagement BL + infestor is the toughest composition but that just means you cant run head first into engagements.
They need to get creative or maybe better yet all these team's coaches and shit need to get their act together and start thinking harder and come back in a bit more and complain if its still completely the same. As it stands there is no 100% domination through out everything and there is one moment in game (end game) where zerg can attain a nasty composition. Too bad you let them get that composition am I right?
On November 11 2012 16:28 Flonomenalz wrote: To be honest, even as a Masters Zerg, I want an Infestor nerf. I definitely win games I get completely out played in simply because I have enough Infestors.
I want to say that TL shouldn't have this mindset of "only Zerg players are fine with it". We really aren't. It's quite boring for us as well to pretty much HAVE to play turtle festor into gglord/winfestor every game because muta micro isn't important enough to make them as good, and we have no other viable tech option at Lair that doesn't leave us open to giant timings. An infestor nerf, with a Hydra buff, I would have no problems with.
How would you buff the Hydra?
I think i have never seen Hydra being made for a long time and that's a problem.
Speed Upgrade at Lair.
The primary reason Hydras never get made is due to how impossible it is to run away with them. A speed upgrade would help so much, and would also allow Hydra splitting against things like Colossus AOE, storm dodging will now be possible with hydras, and you can split against banelings similar to marine splitting. That would be sick to watch.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
It sounds as if you didn't prepare against Zerg at all.
That is the case. TvZ is too difficult nowadays, and I feel very stressed because I keep losing against Zergs in practice. I didn't practice at all against Zerg for this group, and I only worked on my TvT and my TvP.
I think that SC2 is more imbalanced now than it has ever been before. It's impossible to fend off Zergs. If two players are equal in skill, the Zerg will win 8 or 9 times out of 10. That's how broken game balance is right now. I would like David Kim to patch the game already.
Zerg is far too strong. If two players of a similar skill level face each other, as long as neither of them make mistakes, the Zerg will be at a substantial advantage.
There have been a rising number of complaints about Zerg lately. What are your personal thoughts on this?
To be honest, I thought that Zerg was a strong race since I began. The more Infestors you have, the greater in-game advantage you can Get. It's very different from BW's Queen: it's a spellcaster unit, but it's very strong on the battlefield. It is a deeply overpowered unit. Maybe if Zerg only had Infestors, I wouldn't know, but there is no answer to them when they are combined with Brood Lords. Facing Infested Terrans is also difficult because they are attacking units but cost no supply.
What would you consider to be the greatest stumbling block to your personal goals?
It'll probably be Zerg. I've always whined about Zerg on social networking services, and I would like it if other players joined me. Zerg is ridiculous. Other players have also said that Zerg is difficult to play against, but none of them have spoken out against Zerg during interviews. I'm mortified because I feel as if I'm the only one doing so.
You must be dissatisfied with the present state of PvZ.
Zerg is overpowered. If you enter the late game and are faced with an Infestor-Brood Lord composition, there is no way to turn things around. To win, you have to play perfectly without making any mistakes, so it's too difficult.
There was a time when there was as much complaining about Zerg. It was sometime after the nerfs to Ghost snipe. Back then it was mostly due to new metagame after the patch.
It's I think high time Blizzard revisit this problem as it's clear that Infestors are a big problem. In fact one of the biggest reasons I've almost watched next to no Starcraft for the past few months is that I really don't like seeing so many Infestors and unbeatable late game Zerg armies.
I still don't understand why blizzard nerfed ghosts while leaving infestors untouched. Just bring the old ghosts back and there wouldn't be any problems.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
If mvp had his way terran would be mowing down bases with mules with all his crying last year (as someone mentioned before). It just seems like majority of the well informed complaints are regarding the BL + infestor composition and not being able to deal with it head on. Good 'cause frankly in a straight up engagement BL + infestor is the toughest composition but that just means you cant run head first into engagements.
They need to get creative or maybe better yet all these team's coaches and shit need to get their act together and start thinking harder and come back in a bit more and complain if its still completely the same. As it stands there is no 100% domination through out everything and there is one moment in game (end game) where zerg can attain a nasty composition. Too bad you let them get that composition am I right?
Is that what all the zergs did when terrans would hit them early game with hellion harass to deny creep and then marine tank timing? Or did zergs whine so Blizzard buffed Queens and Overlord. What do you think would happen if they reverted that patch. Do you think all the zergs would just say 'Oh well, I guess I will just have to get creative...'
DRG was able to win GSL so I should be fine, right? Players speaking about balance does not mean they aren't doing anything else to try to combat it.
And why did ghosts get nerfed? The zergs LET the Terran get that composition, right?
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is and that is broodlord infestor. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
Alot of the players making these comments aren't KESPA players: Ryung, Creator, JJakki, MVP. There is a clear consensus across the board between ESF and KESPA players.
On November 11 2012 16:42 MCXD wrote: When KeSPA players publicly say there are issues with the game, you've got a problem on your hands. Serious business.
yes because the people that swapped over recently (some of these ppl that qualified for code a admit they werent up to par even previous gsl qualis) and fell straight first into a period of slight turmoil their words should be taken 100%.
That kinda isn't the point I was making. KeSPA players are, generally speaking, told what to say and what not to say in interviews. The fact that KeSPA doesn't mind them shit talking (indirectly) Blizzard seems to suggest that the management... pretty much agrees. That's kind of a big deal.
Like you said,Kespa players got media training.
But this is just opinion of Kespa players on the game balance and should be just taken with a grain of salt.
(which also means everyone who doesn't play random's opinion on game balance should be just taken with a grain of salt, but that's not exactly 100% true, nor is it applicable is most cases anyways as randoms may have one race they prefer over the others.)
On November 11 2012 17:09 FlukyS wrote: Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is, while the Zerg has broodlord infestor late game and since the infestor is so versatile it deals with a good lot of problems. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
So you arguement is that zergs don't bring overseers? So terrans have to HOPE that the Zerg screws up? Byun made ghost vs Leenock in GSTL and lost so there is your example. And for your Gumiho example, it was 1 game where he out multitasks the Zerg and the Zerg had his infestors out in the middle of no where with no support.
Flash also won against Life when Life had infestors. All he needed was for Life to a move 7-8 of them into tanks.
If you actually read the statement from pros, they all say the issue is they need a major error from the Zerg to win. If both sides are playing relatively error free, the Zerg has the advantage.
On November 11 2012 17:11 vthree wrote: And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off. The reason why Terrans are having trouble is entirely because they aren't using the unit that is designed to counter the unit they are having trouble with. Ghosts are fine other than snipe being useless. You don't even need to have 15 rax dedicated to ghost production either and if you are going bio you already have the tech labs on the barracks so its just a case of putting up a ghost academy and controlling well.
So you arguement is that zergs don't bring overseers? So terrans have to HOPE that the Zerg screws up? Byun made ghost vs Leenock in GSTL and lost so there is your example. And for your Gumiho example, it was 1 game where he out multitasks the Zerg and the Zerg had his infestors out in the middle of no where with no support.
Well im just saying at the moment there is no point in bringing overseers so 99% of Zergs out there will not have them with their first push. Gumiho actually used them a lot in TvZ recently and ive never seen him do badly with them.
Flash also won against Life when Life had infestors. All he needed was for Life to a move 7-8 of them into tanks.
Anyone can make a mistake and that game was lost entirely because of that moment which was a shame since he was in control before that. And since you mentioned it, I seem to remember a game later on from Flash where he out multitasked a Zerg completely on cloud kingdom I think it was and the caster noted "this is how you deal with late game Zerg". He killed expansion attempts, attacked multiple places and stretched the Zerg to his limit and won because he couldn't stop the harass with his slow units.
If you actually read the statement from pros, they all say the issue is they need a major error from the Zerg to win. If both sides are playing relatively error free, the Zerg has the advantage.
I did read them and I addressed what I thought, TvZ balanced they just need to stop being idiots, PvZ imbalanced but its not going to get fixed any time soon because it would seriously break everything if done incorrectly or it might not even be enough to fix it. ZvZ imbalanced because of the strength of the infestor and I really want a nerf to it because of that but again id be worried about muta play then so it would have to be thought about well and would risk breaking the entire match up.
On November 11 2012 17:09 FlukyS wrote: Well take a random sampling of players im sure they will all say different things about balance. So lets dismantle this for a minute Mvp said that quote a couple of months ago when the meta game hadn't shifted and Terrans actually weren't winning so im just going to ignore that quote since Mvp obviously isn't losing any more except when the other player is better like Life in the final. So to address the balance whine that this post is here is what I think as a Zerg player.
Ok so now as a Zerg player in TvZ the Infestor isn't imbalanced I don't care what anyone says its fine its just people react poorly to it. Snipe and EMP are both great and most Zergs I see don't bring overseers with their army at least not till they say oh he has cloaked ghosts lets go get some. Any time ive seen ghosts made in TvZ ive seen the terran win recently. How many times have I seen it? Not much but Gumiho made great use of them. I can't see why Terrans would complain when they have a counter to them. And if someone asks about mech from reading this, adding a few ghosts to a mech composition is fine to hard counter a good unit and it should be seen in the same way that you put up extra starports to deal with broodlords.
For PvZ id say its favored for Zerg because of the coin flip element of late game with the mothership. In HotS they are working on it and the only thing I can say about WoL balance is you can't nerf or buff your way out of game design issues which is what is wrong with PvZ. The facts are that Zerg does have a few different options late game against mothership, archons, stalkers and templar which is what the late game army composition is and that is broodlord infestor. Would nerfing the infestor help anything? Probably not, since Zerg is balanced around the infestor you will either swing the win rate heavily in the other direction or not change it enough. So simply this has to be dealt with in HotS with proper design changes to make the game better.
In ZvZ the infestor is pretty stupid too its either you make them or you lose in most mid game situations. There is no way to deal with muta without them, there is no way to deal with mass roach without them and most of the game is entirely roach infestor and later on hydra mixed in for added DPS but most of the time its the infestor is what the entire match up rotates around. I don't think its fun at all.
I love how you are trying to rationalize this, even though every single Terran and Protoss progamer agrees that Zerg is too strong and even some Zerg pro players have openly admitted that Zerg is too strong (moonglade on the recent state of the game). I think it's time for you to wake up, when everyone in the world disagrees with you it's probably because you are wrong, unless you are some kind of genius in which case I have to wonder why you haven't won a nobel prize yet or other scientific awards.
On November 11 2012 17:11 vthree wrote: And zergs just reacted poor to ghost snipes and Protoss to the 1-1-1...
Nope the problem with ghosts was you got ghosts and you could kill everything late game Zerg had for energy. Infestors are countered directly by splitting your units and by making ghosts and getting a good set of EMPs off. The reason why Terrans are having trouble is entirely because they aren't using the unit that is designed to counter the unit they are having trouble with. Ghosts are fine other than snipe being useless. You don't even need to have 15 rax dedicated to ghost production either and if you are going bio you already have the tech labs on the barracks so its just a case of putting up a ghost academy and controlling well.
EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zuqLW.jpg)
