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Estonia4504 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:21 arbiter_md wrote:
The main difference of this build is spending gas on sairs, early +1 attacks and spped for zealots delaying the templar archives and storm research.
The reason it works, because speedlots actually fight well small hydra numbers especially on open fields.
What is the best counter from zergs? Spend more money on units/sunkens/spores early game to defend the 3 bases, and go for hive play.
If you have played Zerg, you should know that Zerg needs to be at least one base ahead to be on equal footing with Protoss and Terran, and here's where the problem lies. Investing in static defenses means that you lose drones, can't attack the opponent who might get his own third up, and lose hard when he so decides to go reaver sair. Investing in units is more favorable, but consumes a lot of gas in case of hydras/mutas/lurkers, which tends to die way too easily defending the bases if Storm enters play. This is why Zerg have been seen producing Zerglings a lot, but Zerglings have their own problems with the Zealot sair build, the +1 upgrade. To produce more Zerglings and save up more gas, you go "greedy" 4th base at the time you think Protoss gets his own third up. This is where I see most Zergs die who don't die to the initial Zealot push.
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Edit: Sorry misread post.
To whoever said more sunks and spores is the answer, i think that is probably wrong.
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+ Show Spoiler +Bisu pretty much showed in his game against ZerO that zergs just can't handle mass zeal. Even massed hydras can't stop the power and mobility of +2 attack zealots. You don't even need high templar. The changes in PvZ are inspiring. Who knew that after 10 long years, Zealot/Corsair could be the key to PvZ
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I really like the state of this MU at the moment. :D It's about time we have some P dominance.
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On January 24 2011 22:36 POWEROUTAGE wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Bisu pretty much showed in his game against ZerO that zergs just can't handle mass zeal. Even massed hydras can't stop the power and mobility of +2 attack zealots. You don't even need high templar. The changes in PvZ are inspiring. Who knew that after 10 long years, Zealot/Corsair could be the key to PvZ
It's benzene, though, where mobility is rewarded cause of open 3rd and 4th. Zergs can't just simcity up a nat to get up 2 expos.
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well to me, it seems as if the zealots are coming out much faster than they do on certain games. in the game with jaedong vs bisu, i believe bisu pushed out without +1 even being done and only zealot leg speed.
the next key aspect is the build up of corsairs. back in the day of 3 hatch 5 hatch hydra, zerg has a good economy to make hydras from 5 hatcheries at approximately 7:30. p used to only build 1 sair to scout and rush to get his hts. ht sniping with mutas became the main reason why there was so much imbalance in pvz.
p now delays tech for a stronger zealot and corsair count.
if you've used the standard 5 hatch hydra build, you'd note that you are barely able to maintain this production based on resources and larvae count.
it may not seem like much but just by sending the zealots to the zerg's base already causes economy damage. for the duration that the zealots are in the zerg's base, zerg has to use his drones to attack the zealots or to clog them which is essentially one base down for zerg temporarily. since 5 hatch hydra can only be supported with 3 bases, zerg cannot have that comfortable room to mass his hydras at his desired timing.
unlike the +1 speedlot attacks from the past, the new trend involves the massing up of corsairs. with the attack of the 2 gate zealot rush, zerg will be saturating all his larvae on either lings or hydras and to spend drones on more defence. zerg will be extremely tight on resources and won't have enough to make scourges. this is where the power of the corsair really comes in.
picking off a few overlords at this point will be devastating because it will significantly delay zerg even further. no units = dead zerg.
in my opinion, zerg should respond to rush lurkers but yet meet the scourge to corsair timing. this can essentially hold back the zealot attacks and allow zerg to take up a 4th base quicker and more comfortably.
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1019 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:44 Holgerius wrote:
I Really like the State of this MU at the moment. :D It's about time we have some P dominance.
I agree. protoss has struggled a lot because of outmacro and hive tech from zerg. Or be a fucking noob like shine and just do hydra rush.
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Combining MSL, OSL, and WL ZvP is 48-43 (53%) in Zerg's favor. Toss is getting a later third to go for an earlier pressure with a stronger backup while zerg's play greedy with 4 base ling only like Toss is getting an early third and spending minerals cannoning it instead of building units to come kill them. I'm not sure why they aren't adjusting appropriately though.
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On January 23 2011 17:48 Ideas wrote:
honestly I want to say that kal sorta re-pioneered the whole "get 6 +1 sairs off of 1 stargate and then stack them with a trapped probe and always have air dominance" but that's probably wrong. He has been consistantly doing it since early 2010 though, and it seems to of caught on (if I remember correctly, back in like 2009 most protoss would only get a few sairs (like 2-3)) recently. Although kal almost always went sair/reaver back then.
can anyone think of any games where hte zerg went lurkers 1st and a protoss did the zeal rush? do lurkers not finish in time? or does that just mean zerg loses a bunch of overlords?
They can't possibly get lurkers out before the first push. Unless maybe they skipped the spire and cut some drones, which wouldn't be optimal.
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On January 25 2011 06:37 tryummm wrote:Show nested quote +On January 23 2011 17:48 Ideas wrote:
honestly I want to say that kal sorta re-pioneered the whole "get 6 +1 sairs off of 1 stargate and then stack them with a trapped probe and always have air dominance" but that's probably wrong. He has been consistantly doing it since early 2010 though, and it seems to of caught on (if I remember correctly, back in like 2009 most protoss would only get a few sairs (like 2-3)) recently. Although kal almost always went sair/reaver back then.
can anyone think of any games where hte zerg went lurkers 1st and a protoss did the zeal rush? do lurkers not finish in time? or does that just mean zerg loses a bunch of overlords? They can't possibly get lurkers out before the first push. Unless maybe they skipped the spire and cut some drones, which wouldn't be optimal.
ya i think this is kind of the problem. i don't think skipping the spire is a solution because you really need the scourge to combat that corsair.
im also not very sure if its possible to squeeze in the lurker upgrade with building the spire at the completion of the lair.
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Given that it was benzene, Bisu's game vs Zero really shows the way the current build messes with the zerg. Though it's not as easy to secure a forth because of the map set up, Bisu still had to force his zealots through the "only" entrance to the third up a ramp, that's hard enough.
Bisu lost all 5 of his initial templars, but just pushing with zealots at 2 timing areas really hurt the zerg. The strong zealot push and cosairs killing overlords really changes how zergs need to react.
With one hydra den, you have to choose between speed/range and lurker. If you choose lurker upgrade first, you lose major overlords, and the first zealot push will be stronger since you have relatively weaker and much less hydras.
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Don't read if you din't watch Khan vs Hite;
Stork Vs Hydra is a good example here. It's Benzene again which i'm beginning to think is a bit difficult for Zergs to deal with using current strategies. Hydra did his best to keep sair count down yet it was still high and getting ovie kills everywhere from simply one stargate. Very high speedlot count to the point where he could easily kill the mineral only and then back off. Even Hydra's well micro'd ling/hydra forces getting a good lot of kills couldn't prevent the build up of them. Then the templars were out, no chance of sniping besides maybe lucky ling surrounds, then around 2 production lines of goons made and there you have a Protoss ball easily enough to take out the 3rd base with goon storms while the Zerg tries their best to move and spread lurkers around in a tight space. While Hydra desperately holds on you got a production of pure zealots reinforcing to end any hope, and making it gg.
All of this is done while Stork is even expanding at the same time, and still has the airforce available to him which nullifies the chance of drops, is easy scouting of everything Hydra was doing, and still picking off random Ovies. Hydra never had map control and attempts at a few sneaky lings and lurkers heading to new bases at obvious locations were easily caught out. Air dominance is definitely the key here.
What bemuses me though is Jangbi/Brave vs Hydra as well... Jangbi played a 2 stargate build and didn't have enough units, before he simply died to a hydra drop in main (despite the sair count) and Brave was attempting a similar 2 stargate build before he was just busted down with a simple 3 hatch hydra push. You got Stork on your team why not use his tactics which actually work. Sairs seem to build up enough on their own from 1 gate if you protect them enough till they can fend off scourge, so thats a wasted investment for a start. Jangbi had good air distance to main which is why i guess he went for reaver, but Hydra obviously knew this too and kept easily enough defence to stop it doing anything. Yet he was getting templars as well (which didn't get storm in time), plus sairs from 2 stargates... poor use of gas and just a generally bad game. All this while Hydra was on a comfortable 4 bases with zero threat at any point. Pretty much the prime example of what NOT to do in a PvZ.
My opinion:
It does look tempting to sacrifice Spire to put the gas into lurker/hydra (maybe even double den? which would also feign a hydra bust); but sairs are too annoying and mobile to catch with pure hydra, and then when storm is out you can't group all your ovies near a hydra/spore defence and having all your 0 armour ovies cleaned up by +1 sairs at a critical time. Maybe a spire could be fit in at a correct timing a bit later once the early speedlot threat is nullified by the faster lurker. Certainly 4bases could be held with another main taken like this, just requiring spore/sunk for drops in the mains and ovies/hydra/lurker at the nats.
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ya i was just thinking the same thing. maybe go for pure hydra first, delay the spire slightly for fast lurkers with delayed 4th and 5th hatcheries. you probably only need 4-5 lurkers, 2 in nat and third base each. then you can get 5th hatch at 4th base and drone up in the mean time that protoss will get observers
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If you didn't watch SKT1 vs Woonjin don't read;
Ok so Soulkey Vs By.Sun, he does infact do what i said above and skips the spire, fakes the hydra bust like ZerO did Vs Stork to force cannons that are not needed, then takes the 4th base. However he loses the 4th base in my opinion due to having 2 lurkers at a 3rd that was just warping in. Having 1 stop lurker behind min line would have been smart and leaving one back prehaps at the 4th. I think he was trying to morph a hydra on the ramp to stop their progression into the base but it failed, so a big loss there. Skips spire for ages and does a lurker/hydra/ling spread across the mid. After that it was a split map situation but excellent macro and aggression by Soulkey even against almost even bases won him the game.. i think a better Protoss would have won after killing the 4th though. A million storms couldn't hold off Soukeys insane aggression.
So basically a fake Hydra bust seems like a good idea these days... cause the Toss simply can't tell if you will actually choose to bust or not. Maybe we'll see more of this in future.
Then ZerO vs Bisu which i avoided reading discussion of earlier... despite the templar snipes he wins, probably due to getting so many hydras caught out of position at the top left base at one point. After those templar losses you'd really expect a win. He did the usual spire/den but i would have liked for him to have gone the Soulkey route instead... maybe the choice is because its Benzene. Yet again the sair numbers caused problems and scourge became much less useful than usual, except as scouts. I do like the Woonjin Zergs use of Burrow though. I'm surprised it wasn't used instead of retreating drones considering obs wasn't out. If we imagine the game if he had gone just solely gas into lurker/hydra... the top could have been held, and the ovies could have been placed around the hatches at natural and 3rd along with hydras and a spore. Using lings as scouts, especially with burrow would have been enough to see what's going on i think. I'm sure we'll see a revised build and particular for Benzene soon enough... remember HBR being considering a P > Z map for a while until it was figured out.
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10387 Posts
I'm more than certain that Protoss comes out ahead in the case of a scouted 3 Hatch Hydra, and Rain could've won that game, but his PvZ decision making and control isn't good enough yet. Like he was too Zealot-heavy when he needed more goons before Swarm kicked in, he really fucked up with the defense at the middle expo by not keeping a HT or 2 by the expo and blocked off his reinforcements w/ a morphing archon, and not clearing the top left out to expand there (failing to clear the path for an expo quickly seems to be a common theme w/ Rain so far)
Delaying Spire is a bad idea imo, gives Corsairs free reign of the skies, and the later scourge means you won't be able to get any proper intel on what build the Protoss is using (be it Sair/DT, Sair/Reaver, or 4-6 Gate Zealot-allin). If the Protoss decides to upgrade +1 air weapons, your ovies are going to pop sooo damn fast because you aren't going to get +1 Air Carapace done fast enough.
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The thing that baffled me the most about the "fake 3 Hatch hydra all-in" is that the Protoss players will be likely smarter using Corsairs instead to fly outside of their natural and flying on top of the Zerg bases checking for any more tech. If Zerg actually get a spire instead of staying on the hydra den, then cancel those 2 cannons morphing in immediately and move out OR if it has already been moved in, get a probe out and build your third with the couple of the Zealots making it safe since your natural will be most likely be protected by the cannons. This makes Zerg trying to kill off the third while you continue massing up the Corsairs count to counter them Mutas/Scourge.
In short, faking going all in 3 Hatch Hydra is cute but it is easily discoverable.
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regarding bisu .. the zerg needs to kill the scouting probe .. if he goes blind, it would be great for the match up BvZ
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If EffOrt was not retired, I believe that he will show a better ZVP......
In my view, zergling and lurker are better than pure hydra when against zealots and ht.
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On January 25 2011 16:09 KT_FlaSh wrote:If EffOrt July did not retired, I believe that he will show a better ZVP......
fixed 
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On January 23 2011 16:05 baubo wrote:Nothing like a PvZ thread to bring out the Bisu fanboyism.  Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM. I find that the general trend is that protosses aren't going for fast 3rd anymore. They basically use speedlots/sairs to gain map control, and turtle until the entire ball rolls out, which hard counters hydras. The late 3rd is also map dependent, as mains with less minerals prevent the protoss from turtling hard at the beginning. So with large number of patches at main/expo, protoss can stay on two base longer, allowing them more time to produce the dreaded protoss ball. As for +1/speedlot attack, it has always been map-dependent. Because zerg rely on sim-cities to defend it. Bad zerg sim-city -> no drone-whoring -> no gazillion hydra to overrun tosses. It makes a ton of difference how many sunkens and lings you need to defend the zealots.
If by mirror you mean mirror his success at the matchup:
(from the SKT v Stars thread)
On January 24 2011 23:06 Finale wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 22:59 endy wrote:On January 24 2011 22:49 J1.au wrote:
As of right now: ZvP: 14-26 (35%). Amazing. Without Bisu : ZvP : 13-10. Bisu is amazing. 14-26 is the current stat for Winners League alone, but you deducted Bisu's PvZ record for both WL and SPL. Minus Bisu's 6-0 in Winners League, the current PvZ match up is 14-20. Also worth mentioning: Bisu (6-0), Stork (5-0), Violet (4-0), Stats (3-0), and Jaehoon (2-0) account for 20/26 PvZ wins.
Bisu's certainly leading the way, but other tosses aren't doing too badly.
In most of the recent matches I've seen it's been all simcity, hydra and a few scourge from the zerg. How feasible is a muta/scourge response to wrest back air control? Is it impossible to regain once the Protoss has the critical mass of corsairs?
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EPT
