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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
I only ever made it to d+ zerg on ICCUP, so im not even gonna venture a guess as to why this is happening, but I would like to hear the opinions of the guys that know what they are talking about. So tell me, whats with the sudden change in this matchup? edit... someone requested a game. Heres the OSL semifinal. Spoiler obviously. + Show Spoiler + btw, make sure you watch all the vids ^_^ | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Long answer: The new core strategy of PvZ (2 Gate +1 Speedlot) replacing 4 Gate 2 Archon since its a better build, along with Protoss learning to cut as many corners as they can for the Econ/Tech advantage (such as going Nexus-Gate-Forge, and back in 09-10 it was standard to make 3 cannons at the nat even w/o the threat of a hydra bust). The mass Hydra/Muta strategy is also not as effective anymore, forcing many zergs to favor the 4 base turtle play. Also, Protoss don't suck as much anymore so that helps quite a bit. There's a bunch of other stuff but that's just things off the top of my head Let me also add that Zergs are following the Protoss's example by also attempting to cut corners and delay static defense as much as possible. This leads to Protoss sometimes doing some off-beat timing attacks w/ a small number of units and doing a retarded amount of damage (although the Zergs die to the standard push too sometimes -_-;;;  | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
Winner's league probably contributes as well. | ||
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
Aside from the strategical changes, EffOrt's retirement (he was the best ZvPer imo), ZerO and JD not doing as well, TaekBang's resurgence, it all adds up. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
The difference between Stork's play I see, although he does basically the same thing, Stork isn't as aggressive, or fast I think. The recent games he played, I have seen, Stork basically waits until Zealot Legs are done before he attacks, while Bisu basically attacks and has Legs done WHILE he's attacking w/ +1. when it's PvZ, it's basically Bisu. yet again I might add. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66359 Posts
greedy builds by protosses zergs going 6 hatch instead of 5 hatch spire into hydras and thus not making sunkens/units fast enough zergs being overly greedy by getting a very fast 4th gas base (link to above point) | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 23 2011 13:56 Tazza wrote: I think it has to do with many different things. First of all, its that protoss are now getting greedy about the initial build order, like going 12 nex, forge nex, and making cannons as late as they can. Also, the zealot pushes are really strong, and sim city is often times not good enough. The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
As for why toss have been dominating, I think a lot of it is due to Bisu and Stork paving a path and showing some killer builds and timings. Other toss players are just getting pumped over the rape the mighty protoss enclave has been leaving in their wake. But the main reason why toss have been doing well against zerg is pretty much everything ArvickHero has said. | ||
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:37 Chimpalimp wrote: You all talk down like zergs are doing bad, you realize that 5 of the Ro8 players are zerg players and 2 of the final 4 OSL players were zerg.... You do realize that the OSL/MSL started months ago? If a whole Starleague would happen in an instant right now, you wouldn't seeing this many zergs that far in. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:00 Lucumo wrote: You do realize that the OSL/MSL started months ago? If a whole Starleague would happen in an instant right now, you wouldn't seeing this many zergs that far in. Well, Zergs got a lot better at ZvT I'd say, and most Zergs would still have a decent chance against your average Protoss. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:03 ArvickHero wrote: Well, Zergs got a lot better at ZvT I'd say, and most Zergs would still have a decent chance against your average Protoss. Your average Protoss like... Violet? Stats? | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
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manymunkies
United States184 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:07 skindzer wrote: Can someone link to a recent VOD that showcase this new trend? I havent been following progaming lately =/ just basically watch ANY recent bisu vs Zerg game.. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:05 mustaju wrote: Your average Protoss like... Violet? Stats? I guess Violet could fit the bill, depending on how his form is, and I would cut Stats as above average fsho. I was thinking more of Shuttle, Sun, Tyson, etc.. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:32 henzi wrote: You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
 Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM. I find that the general trend is that protosses aren't going for fast 3rd anymore. They basically use speedlots/sairs to gain map control, and turtle until the entire ball rolls out, which hard counters hydras. The late 3rd is also map dependent, as mains with less minerals prevent the protoss from turtling hard at the beginning. So with large number of patches at main/expo, protoss can stay on two base longer, allowing them more time to produce the dreaded protoss ball.As for +1/speedlot attack, it has always been map-dependent. Because zerg rely on sim-cities to defend it. Bad zerg sim-city -> no drone-whoring -> no gazillion hydra to overrun tosses. It makes a ton of difference how many sunkens and lings you need to defend the zealots. | ||
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:31 manymunkies wrote: just basically watch ANY recent bisu vs Zerg game.. Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. | ||
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