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Does anybody remember this thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170973
The keys to this strategy:
1. The first wave of Zealots can't die needlessly, and must be used carefully. If not confident in the odds, then hold back - some especially greedy Zergs will die right here;
2. Reinforcing Zealots must contest the center, controlling the area between the Zerg's nat and 3rd, stopping his troops from massing up, pressuring both sides with Speedlot mobility.
3. Corsairs have to survive [T/N lol Best is fucked], ready to engage Zerg air, jumping in to snipe Overlords when possible.
4. Taking the 3rd base relatively lately, waiting until the Protoss ball is fairly strong and mixed, or until you get an advantage.
To be honest, i'm not really sure what differentiates bisu's "new" style from the old style. I thought the first three points had always been true for PvZ. Anybody care to elaborate? The later third however is something i've noticed and may be a big part of protoss' newfound success.
Edit: i think the main point is that it isn't necessarily a new build (such as 2 gate speed) that is giving protoss the edge but a change in mentality and how they approach the matchup
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If this is a stargate-based counter to the accursed 3 hat spire 5 hat hydra, then I think that zergs will be pretty badly affected by this new build. But the solution is probably simply to play hungrier and maybe abuse a certain timing.
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Tbh, I would LOVE to see the Strategy used by Stork against Jaedong in PL lol I mean 3 Proxy in-your-face-gateway-rush. OR the other strategy used by Stork with Fast Corsair by skipping forge.
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I think that this is a question of the PvZ mentality nowadays. I don't know why but I've had the impression for a long time now that Zergs are more and more defensive nowadays. Protoss found the way to exploit that over defensive nature of modern Zergplay.
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Oh shi-, I just found out that the only way to beat Protoss is by going 2 Base plays instead of going 3 Base in order to get those Mutalisks out fast enough. This has become like that 3 base plays don't work anymore for ZvT.
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On January 24 2011 04:15 etch wrote:Does anybody remember this thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170973Show nested quote +
The keys to this strategy:
1. The first wave of Zealots can't die needlessly, and must be used carefully. If not confident in the odds, then hold back - some especially greedy Zergs will die right here;
2. Reinforcing Zealots must contest the center, controlling the area between the Zerg's nat and 3rd, stopping his troops from massing up, pressuring both sides with Speedlot mobility.
3. Corsairs have to survive [T/N lol Best is fucked], ready to engage Zerg air, jumping in to snipe Overlords when possible.
4. Taking the 3rd base relatively lately, waiting until the Protoss ball is fairly strong and mixed, or until you get an advantage.
To be honest, i'm not really sure what differentiates bisu's "new" style from the old style. I thought the first three points had always been true for PvZ. Anybody care to elaborate? The later third however is something i've noticed and may be a big part of protoss' newfound success. Edit: i think the main point is that it isn't necessarily a new build (such as 2 gate speed) that is giving protoss the edge but a change in mentality and how they approach the matchup
The days of one-corsair play are over. Protoss players used to only make one corsair to scout sometimes, but now you see mass sair basically every single game
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On January 24 2011 03:48 NrG.GoD- wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 03:13 henzi wrote:On January 23 2011 20:43 NrG.GoD- wrote:On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote:On January 23 2011 14:32 henzi wrote:On January 23 2011 13:56 Tazza wrote:
I think it has to do with many different things. First of all, its that protoss are now getting greedy about the initial build order, like going 12 nex, forge nex, and making cannons as late as they can. Also, the zealot pushes are really strong, and sim city is often times not good enough.
The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. this man is correct He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct
I dont think you're getting my point.
The previous "standard" build was gate, core, stargate (by this time you get 2 zealots and 1 non-ranged dragoon), then take it through with reaver or templar archives, then add 3 additional gates and start mixing the gate units from a total of 4 gates until the late game. This build limits cosair production since you have to spend gas to tech to reaver or templars quite quickly, and delays your initial push ball, giving the zerg the option to hydra up, and when the timing in right, gives the zerg the option to put out 9 mutas to snipe. This build pushes out later, when the zerg should be more ready.
In the "current" "bisu" build, he goes gate, core, stargate (building only zealots), citadel, then adds an "earlier" second gate. This lets him put out approximately 2x the zealots of the previous build, and let's him push out with those zealots much earlier. All this time, the gas lets him produce continuous corsairs. Once he pushes with the initial zealots, he adds a templar archive. Because of the early zealot push, the zerg is put on the defensive, spending more larvae on attacking units vs drone. The zealot + cosair push makes the zerg's build order forgo any kind of muta build or harass. +1 speedlots are relatively effective against the early small numbers of slow hydras.
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You guys are awesome, keep it up please. By discussing and analyzing the matter we are coming close to decoding the message from our god (euh I mean Bisu lol). I hope that the build will be throughly analyzed and brought up to the "commoners" like me soon, so that we won't have difficulty destroying Zergs anymore.
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Actually, Zerg have more wins this season. It's just that Bisu and Stork have upped their games. The other Protosses are still struggling. But now with Bisu and Stork picking up the pace, I think the ideal or top level expression of the matchup is slightly Protoss favored, so we might see a era of stronger Protoss's as soon as the teams have had time to analyze Bisu. I don't know exactly why he's better than the rest, but I think it's related to his relentless harrassing. Bisu isn't the kind of player who sends out a shuttle or a few dt's to do some eco harrassing. He is constantly harrassing, and more importantly, he is a efficient harrasser, which means he adapts to the situation and handles every scenario differently. There are players out there who are much better than Bisu with Shuttle reaver, like Snow, Kal and Stork, but these guys, Kal especially are too attached to this skill, which means they don't know what to do if it fails, and on top of that, they become predictable.
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On January 24 2011 07:45 greenDron wrote:
ya'll heard of spoilers?
how can you honestly expect to read a thread about current PvZ trends and not expect to get matches spoiled? -_-
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Ok, I've been kind of out of the BW loop for awhile so can someone tell me what the standard ZvP strategy is now? I've heard that zergs go for 4 gas straight away, or do they still do the 3 hat spire -> 5 hatch hydra build?
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Zero vs Stork was very interesting. It looks like Zero countered the new standard PvZ build by going hydra den before lair and protecting his overlords. He then put on some pressure to force Stork to panic, thinking there was gonna be an early timing hydra bust, putting up too many cannons. This allowed Zero to get his 4th base up, macro and roll Stork.
IMO anyway, I could be wrong
Also Jangbi vs Calm in proleague was interesting. Calm did a very nice build to win.
Also Stork has relatively low APM, but he multitasks as good as anyone.
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On January 24 2011 06:09 henzi wrote:Show nested quote +On January 24 2011 03:48 NrG.GoD- wrote:On January 24 2011 03:13 henzi wrote:On January 23 2011 20:43 NrG.GoD- wrote:On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote:On January 23 2011 14:32 henzi wrote:On January 23 2011 13:56 Tazza wrote:
I think it has to do with many different things. First of all, its that protoss are now getting greedy about the initial build order, like going 12 nex, forge nex, and making cannons as late as they can. Also, the zealot pushes are really strong, and sim city is often times not good enough.
The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. this man is correct He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct I dont think you're getting my point. The previous "standard" build was gate, core, stargate (by this time you get 2 zealots and 1 non-ranged dragoon), then take it through with reaver or templar archives, then add 3 additional gates and start mixing the gate units from a total of 4 gates until the late game. This build limits cosair production since you have to spend gas to tech to reaver or templars quite quickly, and delays your initial push ball, giving the zerg the option to hydra up, and when the timing in right, gives the zerg the option to put out 9 mutas to snipe. This build pushes out later, when the zerg should be more ready. In the "current" "bisu" build, he goes gate, core, stargate (building only zealots), citadel, then adds an "earlier" second gate. This lets him put out approximately 2x the zealots of the previous build, and let's him push out with those zealots much earlier. All this time, the gas lets him produce continuous corsairs. Once he pushes with the initial zealots, he adds a templar archive. Because of the early zealot push, the zerg is put on the defensive, spending more larvae on attacking units vs drone. The zealot + cosair push makes the zerg's build order forgo any kind of muta build or harass. +1 speedlots are relatively effective against the early small numbers of slow hydras.
i don't think you are getting my point either, or you haven't been watching starcraft long enough
the build you are referring to has been around for ages. watch violet vs hyuk heartbraek ridge, bisu vs luxury heartbreak ridge, jaedong vs bisu destination (all star game). etc 2nd gateway before templar archive has been used for a long time. And im telling you, this isn't the key change that took place to make protoss win more. in fact current protoss progamers actually make 2nd gateway a lot less and instead spend the resources to upgrade +1 air weapon. read all my threads
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So basically, to summarize succinctly what has been said... Toss realized that archons suck. All else follows from that basic realization.
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bahaha... i dont usually comment on these types of threads, but on this topic i feel i have sufficient information. i watch all of bisu's games, and ever since bisu dropped the individual leagues i've been watchin stork's games too. so sorry, i dont have the playstyles of any other protoss out there.
protosses only get one cannon. they, like someone earlier said, opt for a WAY faster nexus than before, and the improved simcities are now defendable with only one cannon.
protosses get mass corsair. i remember a time where toss only got one corsair from his stargate, for scouting and overlord picking, and bisu was the only one getting multiple corsairs every game. besides, getting multiple corsairs leaves you open to a hydra timing attack (the last bisu vs effort game shows this, i think).
but BISU responds to the flaw pointed out above by pushing out with six zealots right before leg speed finishes. this is right about when zerg's hydralisk den is almost finished. so as stated in another thread, hydras suck quite badly against zealots if both are in small numbers, and this is exactly what protoss wants to exploit. while the zealot attack is going on, with more zealots rallied, the corsair count builds up, and all of a sudden zerg is stuck; make zerglings, or make scourge? overproduction of either would result in a loss.
now here is where i share a quite brash opinion of mine; zerg has gotten careless. like BOTH of bisu's wins over jaedong have been due to carelessness on jaedong's part; bisu is finding hole after hole in zerg simcity and a number of zergs refuse to make two sunkens at each choke (including jaedong). you freaken NEED at least two sunkens.
i'm not sure if maps make a difference. they probably do, but i really have no idea.
so basically: protoss has pushed its timings back a bit, and this results in delaying the zerg's timings (hydralurk ball, hive) by a lot.
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mass corsiars are just too strong for PvZ mid game .. hydras wont cut it ..
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What about zerg trends? Zergs seem to be favouring risky no-unit 4 base play these days. could be one of those builds that works against crappy practice partners but not against elite tosses like Bisu, Stork, et al.
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As mentioned the biggest difference is many P are getting much more sair which nullifies air and sniping of HTs. Other than that, they have mixed up the timing of their attacks and transitions which is leaving zergs confused because they are used to their greedy abusive style where protoss have to worry about what the zergs have built.
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The main difference of this build is spending gas on sairs, early +1 attacks and spped for zealots delaying the templar archives and storm research.
The reason it works, because speedlots actually fight well small hydra numbers especially on open fields.
What is the best counter from zergs? Spend more money on units/sunkens/spores early game to defend the 3 bases, and go for hive play.
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EPT
