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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
I only ever made it to d+ zerg on ICCUP, so im not even gonna venture a guess as to why this is happening, but I would like to hear the opinions of the guys that know what they are talking about. So tell me, whats with the sudden change in this matchup? edit... someone requested a game. Heres the OSL semifinal. Spoiler obviously. + Show Spoiler + btw, make sure you watch all the vids ^_^ | ||
ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Long answer: The new core strategy of PvZ (2 Gate +1 Speedlot) replacing 4 Gate 2 Archon since its a better build, along with Protoss learning to cut as many corners as they can for the Econ/Tech advantage (such as going Nexus-Gate-Forge, and back in 09-10 it was standard to make 3 cannons at the nat even w/o the threat of a hydra bust). The mass Hydra/Muta strategy is also not as effective anymore, forcing many zergs to favor the 4 base turtle play. Also, Protoss don't suck as much anymore so that helps quite a bit. There's a bunch of other stuff but that's just things off the top of my head Let me also add that Zergs are following the Protoss's example by also attempting to cut corners and delay static defense as much as possible. This leads to Protoss sometimes doing some off-beat timing attacks w/ a small number of units and doing a retarded amount of damage (although the Zergs die to the standard push too sometimes -_-;;;  | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
Winner's league probably contributes as well. | ||
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
Aside from the strategical changes, EffOrt's retirement (he was the best ZvPer imo), ZerO and JD not doing as well, TaekBang's resurgence, it all adds up. | ||
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Seraphic
United States3849 Posts
The difference between Stork's play I see, although he does basically the same thing, Stork isn't as aggressive, or fast I think. The recent games he played, I have seen, Stork basically waits until Zealot Legs are done before he attacks, while Bisu basically attacks and has Legs done WHILE he's attacking w/ +1. when it's PvZ, it's basically Bisu. yet again I might add. | ||
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. | ||
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konadora
Singapore66357 Posts
greedy builds by protosses zergs going 6 hatch instead of 5 hatch spire into hydras and thus not making sunkens/units fast enough zergs being overly greedy by getting a very fast 4th gas base (link to above point) | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 23 2011 13:56 Tazza wrote: I think it has to do with many different things. First of all, its that protoss are now getting greedy about the initial build order, like going 12 nex, forge nex, and making cannons as late as they can. Also, the zealot pushes are really strong, and sim city is often times not good enough. The protoss now goes reavers often, which used to backfire often, but i think its being used a lot better now. I think the one thin that zergs don't do nowadays is HT snipe. Back when zerg dominated this MU, it was because zergs would often snipe HTs, and attack while there was no storm/make sure the toss didn't push because they don't have storm. You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. | ||
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Chimpalimp
United States1135 Posts
As for why toss have been dominating, I think a lot of it is due to Bisu and Stork paving a path and showing some killer builds and timings. Other toss players are just getting pumped over the rape the mighty protoss enclave has been leaving in their wake. But the main reason why toss have been doing well against zerg is pretty much everything ArvickHero has said. | ||
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riyanme
Philippines940 Posts
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:37 Chimpalimp wrote: You all talk down like zergs are doing bad, you realize that 5 of the Ro8 players are zerg players and 2 of the final 4 OSL players were zerg.... You do realize that the OSL/MSL started months ago? If a whole Starleague would happen in an instant right now, you wouldn't seeing this many zergs that far in. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:00 Lucumo wrote: You do realize that the OSL/MSL started months ago? If a whole Starleague would happen in an instant right now, you wouldn't seeing this many zergs that far in. Well, Zergs got a lot better at ZvT I'd say, and most Zergs would still have a decent chance against your average Protoss. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:03 ArvickHero wrote: Well, Zergs got a lot better at ZvT I'd say, and most Zergs would still have a decent chance against your average Protoss. Your average Protoss like... Violet? Stats? | ||
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skindzer
Chile5114 Posts
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manymunkies
United States184 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:07 skindzer wrote: Can someone link to a recent VOD that showcase this new trend? I havent been following progaming lately =/ just basically watch ANY recent bisu vs Zerg game.. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:05 mustaju wrote: Your average Protoss like... Violet? Stats? I guess Violet could fit the bill, depending on how his form is, and I would cut Stats as above average fsho. I was thinking more of Shuttle, Sun, Tyson, etc.. | ||
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JohannesH
Finland1364 Posts
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Tazza
Korea (South)1678 Posts
On January 23 2011 14:32 henzi wrote: You can't say "back when zerg dominated it was because they snipe HTs." The current Bisu build seems to favor only zealots, leaving gas to just teching to archives and cosairs for air domination. The games I've seen has the protoss taking air advantage and holding it throughout the game. The early zealot pressure also seems to force the zerg to spend larvae and can't effective save them up for the right muta timing for sniping. Also the current build relies less on high templars cuz you only see about 2 high templars in the 10+ or so zealot push. Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
 Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM. I find that the general trend is that protosses aren't going for fast 3rd anymore. They basically use speedlots/sairs to gain map control, and turtle until the entire ball rolls out, which hard counters hydras. The late 3rd is also map dependent, as mains with less minerals prevent the protoss from turtling hard at the beginning. So with large number of patches at main/expo, protoss can stay on two base longer, allowing them more time to produce the dreaded protoss ball.As for +1/speedlot attack, it has always been map-dependent. Because zerg rely on sim-cities to defend it. Bad zerg sim-city -> no drone-whoring -> no gazillion hydra to overrun tosses. It makes a ton of difference how many sunkens and lings you need to defend the zealots. | ||
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deafhobbit
United States828 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:31 manymunkies wrote: just basically watch ANY recent bisu vs Zerg game.. Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:06 deafhobbit wrote: Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. What Stork Series vs. Calm?!? | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
I think he meant modesty. LOL. MODESTY. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. Mass Corsairs also abuse the fact that Scourges can't fight. Lurker counter Marines, but you can micro the Marines well and kill them instead. You can't do that with your Scourges and if the Protoss user has good control, you will never kill a Corsair. So it depends entirely on the skill of the P. You can try and attack them from both sides, but it doesn't really matter, they can evade your units. Another problem is that you lose a lot of gas in the process. And you can't really not build Scourges since you never know whether they will be effective. You don't really have an alternative anyway. Hydras are ground units and at best, they can protect a bunch of Overlords. The problem is then, that you can't use them and thus won't gain map control. Mutas are not an option and other than that, there isn't really anything left. Once they have mass Corsairs, they can play it with pretty much everything. Shuttle play is preffered of course. You could try and hit the P before he gets too many Sairs(all-in Hydra), but they always turtle 2 bases and have either a Reaver or HTs. But this is, in my opinion, still the best option versus a top Protoss player. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:05 baubo wrote: ...Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM... fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:33 ArvickHero wrote: I guess Violet could fit the bill, depending on how his form is, and I would cut Stats as above average fsho. I was thinking more of Shuttle, Sun, Tyson, etc.. Since when is Han "your average protoss player"? Sun is still too new and I guess Shuttle actually counts even though he is incredible inconsistent vZ. Apart from that: Why is ZergBong named NesTea in the BW TLPD? | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:06 deafhobbit wrote: Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. Yeah, but bisu gets all the love no matter what the situation. Watch violet v jaedong imo. | ||
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Kaervek56
Australia273 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Just to add on to this, Pure and Violet are also high apm protoss players at around 330-350, so it's not like Bisu is head and shoulders above other protoss mechanically. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Fishmalk
74 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:25 Lucumo wrote: Since when is Han "your average protoss player"? If tyson isn't, than who is? | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
I mean, you end up in a situation where hydra busts arei ncreasingly rare, so toss is increasingly greedy. And hte speedzealot was rediscovered. All adds up to PvZ dominance. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. Not to turn this into an APM discussion but unless APM's have drastically gone up in the past year or two 300+ is still pretty high APM. In probably 7/10, maybe a little more of the games I have the APM is in a 260-300 range. Some of the progamers like Jaedong, Really, and effort get APM's anywhere from like 330-400 depending on the game, however the EAPM is still pretty consistent. Jaedong seems to have a redundancy of around 40-45% whereas Bisu, who doesn't seem to quite average 300 APM, frequent has a redundancy in the mid 20% range. As a result they have similar EAPM's which in my experience tends to correlate pretty well to a players multitasking. An EAPM in the neighborhood of 170-180 seems to be about average, with your Bisu's, Baby's, and JD's getting into the lower 200's. When it comes to multitasking though Kal is the only other protoss that gets near Bisu's EAPM/multitask. Everyone else is down in the 160-180 range, its all fast but Bisu and to a lesser extent, Kal, are the only hyper fast protosses. | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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King[Neikos]
Costa Rica506 Posts
when the toss has poor sair control/production they lose the economic advantage and zerg is able to mass up enough to stop the push and any other that comes later | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:42 ]343[ wrote: wait... is everyone forgetting how almost every protoss lost to hydra bust just 2-3 months ago? protoss stopped cutting a few corners, and zerg is cutting more--leading to bigger unit difference at the timings when tosses attack now OH SNAP. A challenger appears I'd have to lean toward this interpretation of events. P is playing safer overall, by being aggressive in a timing before the hydra's can hit. Forces the Zerg into positions that are NOT conducive to a hydra bust, and when they finally get their shit together, P has everything he needs to stop the bust, making the entire attack ineffectual to attempt. It may LOOK riskier with all the zealot aggression, but when you hold it up to the standard Z game right now, it's actual pretty safe. | ||
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
zergs need to start building quick spores again lol. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In your first post, you specifically said that it's Bisu's PvZ that led the entire protoss race into the current PvZ imba. Now you say what sets him apart is his polished builds and sense that are beyond mortal protosses? So which one is it? Did Bisu change the metagame of PvZ so that all protosses mediocre or otherwise can kill zergs easily? Or is Bisu succeeding at PvZ because he's simply good at it, while other protosses are trying their own builds which they also succeed? I have seen many amazing different PvZ BOs recently, most of them not done by Bisu. Yes, there are protosses who can beat zerg by playing differently from Bisu. I know that might blow the minds of Bisu fans, but it is actually true. | ||
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
can anyone think of any games where hte zerg went lurkers 1st and a protoss did the zeal rush? do lurkers not finish in time? or does that just mean zerg loses a bunch of overlords? | ||
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Exchange
131 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. Hah. I remember the times, when sAviOr rape everyone with 200 apm))) | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. I think the other comment have pointed it out. It's not about the HT snipes, it's about the air dominance that's really thrown this match up out of whack. Where as before, the 'toss would build a mix of units including dragoons after a few zealots, then reavers or templars, then late game. All this can come at the cost of air dominance. But the current (dare I say Bisu) build is a focus on just zealots, leaving gas for tech and cosairs. With this mass of cosairs, it forces the zerg to mainly hydras that stay at home to protect overlords. Most of Bisu's current games end without really the need for storm. His early zealot pressure apparently ends the overall game. Of course you can still win going 2 lots, dragoon, to zlot pressure, to reavers gg, as Stork has done of late. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 17:44 baubo wrote: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In your first post, you specifically said that it's Bisu's PvZ that led the entire protoss race into the current PvZ imba. Now you say what sets him apart is his polished builds and sense that are beyond mortal protosses? So which one is it? Did Bisu change the metagame of PvZ so that all protosses mediocre or otherwise can kill zergs easily? Or is Bisu succeeding at PvZ because he's simply good at it, while other protosses are trying their own builds which they also succeed? I have seen many amazing different PvZ BOs recently, most of them not done by Bisu. Yes, there are protosses who can beat zerg by playing differently from Bisu. I know that might blow the minds of Bisu fans, but it is actually true. ...? The point of my first post was the new foundation of PvZ (2 Gate +1 Speedlot [w/ sairs I might add]) giving Protosses a much superior build to work with in PvZ and their smartening up in cutting corners. Bisu simply plays this strategy to perfection, due to his killer sense/micro (you can't dispute that BvZ is different from PvZ) I did disclaim that there were a bunch of other things I didn't note, so don't hate me for not attributing Stork's own achievements in the matchup. Other things I could say about the recent shift w/o researching VODs is that Protosses in general are playing a lot of off-beat timing attacks that catch Zerg offguard a lot (KT Protosses come into mind, as does Khan tosses), and Jaehoon has been pretty strategically diverse in PvZ (not all of them good tho lol). There have also been some extremely impressive use of Splash Toss too, in terms of timing and control (Snow, Stork and Kal pop into my head). | ||
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
A similar thing happened when Terrans started doing mech builds a couple of years ago and Zergs were getting rolled for a while, then they adapted and the match-up was more balanced again. Before that it was the original Bisu build that had Zergs stumped for several months. I'm pretty sure that we'll see Zergs adjust once again to the change in timings and things will go back to normal, though it could take a few months for that to happen. | ||
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slappy
United States1271 Posts
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Deleted User 37864
780 Posts
On January 23 2011 18:55 kamikami wrote: Well, if the new foundation of PvZ is now created and demonstrated by the revolutionist again, anyone cares to write the BO of it and put it in liquidpedia ? So that we low level Protoss can apply it and own Zergs more ? It seems that I am playing PvZ style of 2 years ago lol. i can not play starcraft at the moment (on my laptop), but i can give the transitions that i have noticed while observing bisu's games. so it's not a unit count by count build order but i hope it helps: remember keep probe production nonstop. make pylons whenever you need to. - FE --> (nexus/forge/2cannons.. order depends on zerg's opening) - gateway in nat --> gas at base --> core immediately after gateway finishes - when nat finishes, make natural gas - when core finishes, make stargate (nonstop corsairs), and then citadel all that i mentioned was normal PvZ .. and here comes the new build after citadel is made (get speed when it finishes), upgrade your +1 after you used your minerals on +1, make the 2ND gateway in natural push out soon after and have constant pressure key points: keep constant probe AND zealot production. also keep constant corsair production and make sure NONE dies. also, use your 1st and 2nd corsairs to snipe overlords and scout. pay attention to their spire and when you feel scourges are coming, go back to base and dont use your corsairs anymore. mass up to 6-7 and then use them in a group (along with a trapped probe to stack the sairs) sorry if that was confusing lol. my upgrades timing are probably off because i do not know the exact times for each upgrade. but im guessing it's +1 first, then speed, then air +1 basically, it used to be 1 gateway into fast templar archives to get storms ASAP, but now it is changed. instead of 1 gateway, you delay the templar archives in favor of double gateways to put pressure with your big zealot army | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It's good to see Protoss players finally pulling together and implementing various ideas into game games, using air domination as advantage with shuttles of DT/HT/Reaver. I know someone will probably just tell me to shut up with this but Queen/Ensnare on sair ball possible at some reasonable timing? I think it's too slow but i'd love to see that. Also i'm not sure abbut the maps exactly and how simcity works at each location but simply doing a full wall-in when lots moving out might be worth it then kill your way out a bit later. They seem to be letting them in and failing to defend every game these days. Previously i remember solid walls that wouldn't even be worth touching, i guess the zeal count makes the big difference. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
most of you wrote that it is the use of speedzealots that is making the protoss win more games, but i don't think that is true +1 speed zealot has been around for quite some time. For me, the first time ive seen the build is an All-star game between bisu and jaedong in destination. The build was used by many players, in like heartbreak ridge destination, fighting spirit etc. Violet vs Hyuk heartbreak ridge The build is : normal up to stargate, then +1 attack ground, citadel, 1 corsair, cutting probes and upgrading zealot leg and 2nd gateway, constant zealot production, and move out with around 6 zealots, templar archive etc normally speed finishes first, so they start running when they are at middle of map The most notable change since then to now is the use of corsairs. In the past, upgrading +1 air was 80% for corsair reaver play, or protoss progamers made a few corsairs in order to fight off mutalisks raiding main nexus, or to protect high templars, but these corsairs rarely had +1 air weapon upgraded, or weren't great numbers Example game is bisu vs jaedong heartbreak ridge, bisu makes a few extra corsairs (without +1 air) to assist dragoons to protect high templars. But now the use of corsairs improved dramatically. fast zealot themselves aren't very effective because simcity is imba and zerg could go fast lurker and just scratch zealots. Nowadays many protoss progamers go +1 air corsairs and make like 6~8 every game. In the past this was not effective because stacking them wasn't really discovered (of course, they knew how but it was not popularly used), making them vulnerable to very small number of scourges. losing 1 corsair is quite damaging cuz corsairs cost 100 gas. With the stuck-probe stacking, progamers now maximised and optimised the use of corsairs. and with +1 attack, main nexus NEVER gets raided by muta/scourge unless there is only 1 cannon. They can move around the map as a dot and this increases their stealth, and also it is now harder to attack individual corsairs with many scourges (as in make 2 scourges hit 1 corsair by shift-unselecting) they also became easier to maneuver cuz moving as a dot, it has become easier to avoid hydras (when hydras aim attack on 1 corsir, they die easily) this means zergs now make more scourges to try to counter the corsairs than the past. in the past, to counter like 6 corsairs +1 unstacked, you could do it with like 15 scourges and the surviving corsairs were no threat. Now you need a lot more scourges AND +1 air armor AND some muta to take hits, AND good micro and spread of scourges. Even with these, corsairs can just run away t cannnons. What is more, zerg is forced to make spore colonies to protect overlords (but spore colonies have limited range, and protoss can pull the corsair that is getting hit). watch jaedong vs violet benzene, and you'll see how many overlords jaedong lost and eventually cost him game. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 23 2011 19:34 scyper wrote: i can not play starcraft at the moment (on my laptop), but i can give the transitions that i have noticed while observing bisu's games. so it's not a unit count by count build order but i hope it helps: remember keep probe production nonstop. make pylons whenever you need to. - FE --> (nexus/forge/2cannons.. order depends on zerg's opening) - gateway in nat --> gas at base --> core immediately after gateway finishes - when nat finishes, make natural gas - when core finishes, make stargate (nonstop corsairs), and then citadel all that i mentioned was normal PvZ .. and here comes the new build after citadel is made (get speed when it finishes), upgrade your +1 after you used your minerals on +1, make the 2ND gateway in natural push out soon after and have constant pressure key points: keep constant probe AND zealot production. also keep constant corsair production and make sure NONE dies. also, use your 1st and 2nd corsairs to snipe overlords and scout. pay attention to their spire and when you feel scourges are coming, go back to base and dont use your corsairs anymore. mass up to 6-7 and then use them in a group (along with a trapped probe to stack the sairs) sorry if that was confusing lol. my upgrades timing are probably off because i do not know the exact times for each upgrade. but im guessing it's +1 first, then speed, then air +1 basically, it used to be 1 gateway into fast templar archives to get storms ASAP, but now it is changed. instead of 1 gateway, you delay the templar archives in favor of double gateways to put pressure with your big zealot army Was the build came up by Bisu? I thought Kal used it first. Maybe I'm wrong though. This build is also dependent on a big natural. Which is map-dependent. I believe maps like Destination does not give the space needed to "hide" that 2nd gateway. Edit: Upon close examination of your post, I'm pretty sure there are some probe cutting involved, as the timing has been much quicker than past +1/speedlot attacks. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
corsairs guarantee high templar protection from mutalisk snipe. THis makes massing hydralisks very ineffective unless protoss mis-storms badly. so from a "typical" 5 hatchery mass hydra, mutalisk, zergs are going "lets focus on countering corsairs with muta/mass scourge + spore, and defend against ground with sunkens/lurkers, and turtle. oh and since im turtling, let me make 6th hatchery in another expo and go 4th base hive very fast and use defiler to plague and go ultralisk" this is all because mutalisks have become "Weaker" as in less effective and they now rarely can do critical damage to protoss because of corsairs. in the past, the key advantage of 5hatchery play was you get 3 gas very early with stable defense using sim city against zealots, and with the gas zerg become VERY flexible and free in transitioning from hydra to muta, hydra to lurker, lurker to muta, lurker to lurker/ling etc.. many many combinations were possible. massing up and stacking corsairs counter many mutalisk transitions. if you watch recent PvZ games, zergs take 3 gas later than before and they instead focus on 6th hatchery and prefer to go hive earlier and fight protoss with defielrs. jaedong tried this against violet but lost way too many overlords and this screwed him up | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
It's the use of corsairs by bisu, who uses them brilliantly that is making him beat many zergs right now. and corsairs make room for zealots to break in, so it can seem like the zealots are the heroes but it's the cosairs that are being the king | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. this man is correct | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 23 2011 20:21 NrG.GoD- wrote: i don't think anyone here have yet pointed out the key change in pvz for recent games. most of you wrote that it is the use of speedzealots that is making the protoss win more games, but i don't think that is true +1 speed zealot has been around for quite some time. For me, the first time ive seen the build is an All-star game between bisu and jaedong in destination. The build was used by many players, in like heartbreak ridge destination, fighting spirit etc. Violet vs Hyuk heartbreak ridge The build is : normal up to stargate, then +1 attack ground, citadel, 1 corsair, cutting probes and upgrading zealot leg and 2nd gateway, constant zealot production, and move out with around 6 zealots, templar archive etc normally speed finishes first, so they start running when they are at middle of map The most notable change since then to now is the use of corsairs. In the past, upgrading +1 air was 80% for corsair reaver play, or protoss progamers made a few corsairs in order to fight off mutalisks raiding main nexus, or to protect high templars, but these corsairs rarely had +1 air weapon upgraded, or weren't great numbers Example game is bisu vs jaedong heartbreak ridge, bisu makes a few extra corsairs (without +1 air) to assist dragoons to protect high templars. But now the use of corsairs improved dramatically. fast zealot themselves aren't very effective because simcity is imba and zerg could go fast lurker and just scratch zealots. Nowadays many protoss progamers go +1 air corsairs and make like 6~8 every game. In the past this was not effective because stacking them wasn't really discovered (of course, they knew how but it was not popularly used), making them vulnerable to very small number of scourges. losing 1 corsair is quite damaging cuz corsairs cost 100 gas. With the stuck-probe stacking, progamers now maximised and optimised the use of corsairs. and with +1 attack, main nexus NEVER gets raided by muta/scourge unless there is only 1 cannon. They can move around the map as a dot and this increases their stealth, and also it is now harder to attack individual corsairs with many scourges (as in make 2 scourges hit 1 corsair by shift-unselecting) they also became easier to maneuver cuz moving as a dot, it has become easier to avoid hydras (when hydras aim attack on 1 corsir, they die easily) this means zergs now make more scourges to try to counter the corsairs than the past. in the past, to counter like 6 corsairs +1 unstacked, you could do it with like 15 scourges and the surviving corsairs were no threat. Now you need a lot more scourges AND +1 air armor AND some muta to take hits, AND good micro and spread of scourges. Even with these, corsairs can just run away t cannnons. What is more, zerg is forced to make spore colonies to protect overlords (but spore colonies have limited range, and protoss can pull the corsair that is getting hit). watch jaedong vs violet benzene, and you'll see how many overlords jaedong lost and eventually cost him game. You explained it better than me. I think the sairs are really the problem for the Z here. They wait till they got enough up for them to rip through scourge, and even the mass floods of scourge i see Z's build in PvZ (and ZvZ actually, definitely more scourge heavy anyone else notice that?) isn't enough. It was already a problem for Z's in general, but now it's clearly even a problem for the top ones, as evidenced by JD vs Violet (although JD played strangely/badly the overlord kill count lost him it anyway imo). I don't see a direct solution/counter really (except the half-serious but not really queen with ensnare on the sair ball) other than 'play better' though to be honest. Protect your ovies, target fire sairs, catch em offguard or coming out of stargate. If you got 6gate like some really greedy zergs are going lately how are you supposed to build any protection for them? You're not gaining an eco advantage when you lose a shitload of ovies. Surely pro zergs must have worked out the cost/benefit ratio of an extra hatch as opposed to some hydras or something, when you got overlords dying everywhere. I know the queen thing is a bit of a joke but i'd love to see the timing of how fast ensnare can get done in relation to the pack of sairs moving out. The gas cost should be offset by the amount of non-wasted scourge smashing into the slow sairs. I got no idea offhand of the speed of that upgrade though.. Btw for those who immediately dismiss this: Remember another PvZ lately with a supposed useless unit, the Dark Archon. I think Shuttle killed like 9 muta's in about 3 seconds in a single game winning move. Let's not dismiss tools we have at our disposal... ensnare is a lovely last resort move for detecting DT's too because of the current overlord problem. Plus you get parasite which is useful to cast on archons for complete vision of army movement, and if you're completely awesome then you could even use Spawn Broodling for the templar sniping with the sairs out of the way. I'm just afraid the research time is a bit high unfortunately :/ I'd love it if a good level TL player would try this though. My Z play is 120apm atrociousness. I know this is a bit silly and feel free to ridicule or explain the obvious faults but i'm just a fan of thinking up new ideas. Edit: I should vote that Great used Queens against P on Benzene the other day.. i don't think he had my plan i mind or what he was doing really but ensnare's still are useful outside of this, it's certainly not a one shot thing. Ensnared retreated toss forces get eaten alive by lings. | ||
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the-Undermind
Canada106 Posts
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:29 ibreakurface wrote: Yeah, but bisu gets all the love no matter what the situation. Watch violet v jaedong imo. Are you fucken kidding me? The Violet vs Jaedong is so bad that it is hilarious to watch. As much as I love Jaedong, I lol so hard whenever he did his 3 hatch base into fail build. Back to the topic. I think the biggest reason why zerg have so much trouble in ZvP as of late is mainly due to the zealot only opening that leave the Protoss with so many option to tech even while still able to pump out an ungodly amount of crosair. This zealot only opening is so flexible that you even see people like Violet doing his super fast no crosair DT rush. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Delayed speed to get fast DT -> Modesty skips spores and add sunks and lose his expo to DT+sair. <3 Mind games | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
 Violet being on fire, read his wiki page where he says that he tries to follow Bisu's thoughts. In fact he is mini-Bisu lol P.S.: OMG just watched his game list, and realized that the protoss who lost in a "lol kthx pwned" way to Hydra on Circuit Breaker, and the protoss who in the same way pwned Jaedong, Killer, Calm and Hero, are the same person. Violet really has changed a lot O_o | ||
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
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henzi
United States200 Posts
He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:13 henzi wrote: He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:48 NrG.GoD- wrote: it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct I think he is saying that right now, the build is 2 gate StarGate tech whereas before it was 1 Gate tech. The 2 gateways is too be "versatile". | ||
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etch
Canada176 Posts
The keys to this strategy: 1. The first wave of Zealots can't die needlessly, and must be used carefully. If not confident in the odds, then hold back - some especially greedy Zergs will die right here; 2. Reinforcing Zealots must contest the center, controlling the area between the Zerg's nat and 3rd, stopping his troops from massing up, pressuring both sides with Speedlot mobility. 3. Corsairs have to survive [T/N lol Best is fucked], ready to engage Zerg air, jumping in to snipe Overlords when possible. 4. Taking the 3rd base relatively lately, waiting until the Protoss ball is fairly strong and mixed, or until you get an advantage. To be honest, i'm not really sure what differentiates bisu's "new" style from the old style. I thought the first three points had always been true for PvZ. Anybody care to elaborate? The later third however is something i've noticed and may be a big part of protoss' newfound success. Edit: i think the main point is that it isn't necessarily a new build (such as 2 gate speed) that is giving protoss the edge but a change in mentality and how they approach the matchup | ||
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Lightwip
United States5497 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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Rustymike
Finland327 Posts
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
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xxpack09
United States2160 Posts
On January 24 2011 04:15 etch wrote: Does anybody remember this thread? http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=170973 To be honest, i'm not really sure what differentiates bisu's "new" style from the old style. I thought the first three points had always been true for PvZ. Anybody care to elaborate? The later third however is something i've noticed and may be a big part of protoss' newfound success. Edit: i think the main point is that it isn't necessarily a new build (such as 2 gate speed) that is giving protoss the edge but a change in mentality and how they approach the matchup The days of one-corsair play are over. Protoss players used to only make one corsair to scout sometimes, but now you see mass sair basically every single game | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:48 NrG.GoD- wrote: it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct I dont think you're getting my point. The previous "standard" build was gate, core, stargate (by this time you get 2 zealots and 1 non-ranged dragoon), then take it through with reaver or templar archives, then add 3 additional gates and start mixing the gate units from a total of 4 gates until the late game. This build limits cosair production since you have to spend gas to tech to reaver or templars quite quickly, and delays your initial push ball, giving the zerg the option to hydra up, and when the timing in right, gives the zerg the option to put out 9 mutas to snipe. This build pushes out later, when the zerg should be more ready. In the "current" "bisu" build, he goes gate, core, stargate (building only zealots), citadel, then adds an "earlier" second gate. This lets him put out approximately 2x the zealots of the previous build, and let's him push out with those zealots much earlier. All this time, the gas lets him produce continuous corsairs. Once he pushes with the initial zealots, he adds a templar archive. Because of the early zealot push, the zerg is put on the defensive, spending more larvae on attacking units vs drone. The zealot + cosair push makes the zerg's build order forgo any kind of muta build or harass. +1 speedlots are relatively effective against the early small numbers of slow hydras. | ||
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
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ninini
Sweden1204 Posts
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greenDron
Korea (South)94 Posts
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
On January 24 2011 07:45 greenDron wrote: ya'll heard of spoilers? how can you honestly expect to read a thread about current PvZ trends and not expect to get matches spoiled? -_- | ||
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whatusername
Canada1181 Posts
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LightArchon
United Kingdom18 Posts
IMO anyway, I could be wrong Also Jangbi vs Calm in proleague was interesting. Calm did a very nice build to win. Also Stork has relatively low APM, but he multitasks as good as anyone. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
On January 24 2011 06:09 henzi wrote: I dont think you're getting my point. The previous "standard" build was gate, core, stargate (by this time you get 2 zealots and 1 non-ranged dragoon), then take it through with reaver or templar archives, then add 3 additional gates and start mixing the gate units from a total of 4 gates until the late game. This build limits cosair production since you have to spend gas to tech to reaver or templars quite quickly, and delays your initial push ball, giving the zerg the option to hydra up, and when the timing in right, gives the zerg the option to put out 9 mutas to snipe. This build pushes out later, when the zerg should be more ready. In the "current" "bisu" build, he goes gate, core, stargate (building only zealots), citadel, then adds an "earlier" second gate. This lets him put out approximately 2x the zealots of the previous build, and let's him push out with those zealots much earlier. All this time, the gas lets him produce continuous corsairs. Once he pushes with the initial zealots, he adds a templar archive. Because of the early zealot push, the zerg is put on the defensive, spending more larvae on attacking units vs drone. The zealot + cosair push makes the zerg's build order forgo any kind of muta build or harass. +1 speedlots are relatively effective against the early small numbers of slow hydras. i don't think you are getting my point either, or you haven't been watching starcraft long enough the build you are referring to has been around for ages. watch violet vs hyuk heartbraek ridge, bisu vs luxury heartbreak ridge, jaedong vs bisu destination (all star game). etc 2nd gateway before templar archive has been used for a long time. And im telling you, this isn't the key change that took place to make protoss win more. in fact current protoss progamers actually make 2nd gateway a lot less and instead spend the resources to upgrade +1 air weapon. read all my threads | ||
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Gummy
United States2180 Posts
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holyhalo5
United States187 Posts
protosses only get one cannon. they, like someone earlier said, opt for a WAY faster nexus than before, and the improved simcities are now defendable with only one cannon. protosses get mass corsair. i remember a time where toss only got one corsair from his stargate, for scouting and overlord picking, and bisu was the only one getting multiple corsairs every game. besides, getting multiple corsairs leaves you open to a hydra timing attack (the last bisu vs effort game shows this, i think). but BISU responds to the flaw pointed out above by pushing out with six zealots right before leg speed finishes. this is right about when zerg's hydralisk den is almost finished. so as stated in another thread, hydras suck quite badly against zealots if both are in small numbers, and this is exactly what protoss wants to exploit. while the zealot attack is going on, with more zealots rallied, the corsair count builds up, and all of a sudden zerg is stuck; make zerglings, or make scourge? overproduction of either would result in a loss. now here is where i share a quite brash opinion of mine; zerg has gotten careless. like BOTH of bisu's wins over jaedong have been due to carelessness on jaedong's part; bisu is finding hole after hole in zerg simcity and a number of zergs refuse to make two sunkens at each choke (including jaedong). you freaken NEED at least two sunkens. i'm not sure if maps make a difference. they probably do, but i really have no idea. so basically: protoss has pushed its timings back a bit, and this results in delaying the zerg's timings (hydralurk ball, hive) by a lot. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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nodule
Canada931 Posts
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
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arbiter_md
Moldova1219 Posts
The reason it works, because speedlots actually fight well small hydra numbers especially on open fields. What is the best counter from zergs? Spend more money on units/sunkens/spores early game to defend the 3 bases, and go for hive play. | ||
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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 24 2011 20:21 arbiter_md wrote: The main difference of this build is spending gas on sairs, early +1 attacks and spped for zealots delaying the templar archives and storm research. The reason it works, because speedlots actually fight well small hydra numbers especially on open fields. What is the best counter from zergs? Spend more money on units/sunkens/spores early game to defend the 3 bases, and go for hive play. If you have played Zerg, you should know that Zerg needs to be at least one base ahead to be on equal footing with Protoss and Terran, and here's where the problem lies. Investing in static defenses means that you lose drones, can't attack the opponent who might get his own third up, and lose hard when he so decides to go reaver sair. Investing in units is more favorable, but consumes a lot of gas in case of hydras/mutas/lurkers, which tends to die way too easily defending the bases if Storm enters play. This is why Zerg have been seen producing Zerglings a lot, but Zerglings have their own problems with the Zealot sair build, the +1 upgrade. To produce more Zerglings and save up more gas, you go "greedy" 4th base at the time you think Protoss gets his own third up. This is where I see most Zergs die who don't die to the initial Zealot push. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
To whoever said more sunks and spores is the answer, i think that is probably wrong. | ||
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POWEROUTAGE
Singapore884 Posts
Bisu pretty much showed in his game against ZerO that zergs just can't handle mass zeal. Even massed hydras can't stop the power and mobility of +2 attack zealots. You don't even need high templar. The changes in PvZ are inspiring. Who knew that after 10 long years, Zealot/Corsair could be the key to PvZ | ||
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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bearbuddy
3442 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:36 POWEROUTAGE wrote: + Show Spoiler + Bisu pretty much showed in his game against ZerO that zergs just can't handle mass zeal. Even massed hydras can't stop the power and mobility of +2 attack zealots. You don't even need high templar. The changes in PvZ are inspiring. Who knew that after 10 long years, Zealot/Corsair could be the key to PvZ It's benzene, though, where mobility is rewarded cause of open 3rd and 4th. Zergs can't just simcity up a nat to get up 2 expos. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
the next key aspect is the build up of corsairs. back in the day of 3 hatch 5 hatch hydra, zerg has a good economy to make hydras from 5 hatcheries at approximately 7:30. p used to only build 1 sair to scout and rush to get his hts. ht sniping with mutas became the main reason why there was so much imbalance in pvz. p now delays tech for a stronger zealot and corsair count. if you've used the standard 5 hatch hydra build, you'd note that you are barely able to maintain this production based on resources and larvae count. it may not seem like much but just by sending the zealots to the zerg's base already causes economy damage. for the duration that the zealots are in the zerg's base, zerg has to use his drones to attack the zealots or to clog them which is essentially one base down for zerg temporarily. since 5 hatch hydra can only be supported with 3 bases, zerg cannot have that comfortable room to mass his hydras at his desired timing. unlike the +1 speedlot attacks from the past, the new trend involves the massing up of corsairs. with the attack of the 2 gate zealot rush, zerg will be saturating all his larvae on either lings or hydras and to spend drones on more defence. zerg will be extremely tight on resources and won't have enough to make scourges. this is where the power of the corsair really comes in. picking off a few overlords at this point will be devastating because it will significantly delay zerg even further. no units = dead zerg. in my opinion, zerg should respond to rush lurkers but yet meet the scourge to corsair timing. this can essentially hold back the zealot attacks and allow zerg to take up a 4th base quicker and more comfortably. | ||
white_horse
1019 Posts
On January 24 2011 22:44 Holgerius wrote: I Really like the State of this MU at the moment. :D It's about time we have some P dominance. I agree. protoss has struggled a lot because of outmacro and hive tech from zerg. Or be a fucking noob like shine and just do hydra rush. | ||
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Count9
China10928 Posts
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tryummm
774 Posts
On January 23 2011 17:48 Ideas wrote: honestly I want to say that kal sorta re-pioneered the whole "get 6 +1 sairs off of 1 stargate and then stack them with a trapped probe and always have air dominance" but that's probably wrong. He has been consistantly doing it since early 2010 though, and it seems to of caught on (if I remember correctly, back in like 2009 most protoss would only get a few sairs (like 2-3)) recently. Although kal almost always went sair/reaver back then. can anyone think of any games where hte zerg went lurkers 1st and a protoss did the zeal rush? do lurkers not finish in time? or does that just mean zerg loses a bunch of overlords? They can't possibly get lurkers out before the first push. Unless maybe they skipped the spire and cut some drones, which wouldn't be optimal. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On January 25 2011 06:37 tryummm wrote: They can't possibly get lurkers out before the first push. Unless maybe they skipped the spire and cut some drones, which wouldn't be optimal. ya i think this is kind of the problem. i don't think skipping the spire is a solution because you really need the scourge to combat that corsair. im also not very sure if its possible to squeeze in the lurker upgrade with building the spire at the completion of the lair. | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
Bisu lost all 5 of his initial templars, but just pushing with zealots at 2 timing areas really hurt the zerg. The strong zealot push and cosairs killing overlords really changes how zergs need to react. With one hydra den, you have to choose between speed/range and lurker. If you choose lurker upgrade first, you lose major overlords, and the first zealot push will be stronger since you have relatively weaker and much less hydras. | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Stork Vs Hydra is a good example here. It's Benzene again which i'm beginning to think is a bit difficult for Zergs to deal with using current strategies. Hydra did his best to keep sair count down yet it was still high and getting ovie kills everywhere from simply one stargate. Very high speedlot count to the point where he could easily kill the mineral only and then back off. Even Hydra's well micro'd ling/hydra forces getting a good lot of kills couldn't prevent the build up of them. Then the templars were out, no chance of sniping besides maybe lucky ling surrounds, then around 2 production lines of goons made and there you have a Protoss ball easily enough to take out the 3rd base with goon storms while the Zerg tries their best to move and spread lurkers around in a tight space. While Hydra desperately holds on you got a production of pure zealots reinforcing to end any hope, and making it gg. All of this is done while Stork is even expanding at the same time, and still has the airforce available to him which nullifies the chance of drops, is easy scouting of everything Hydra was doing, and still picking off random Ovies. Hydra never had map control and attempts at a few sneaky lings and lurkers heading to new bases at obvious locations were easily caught out. Air dominance is definitely the key here. What bemuses me though is Jangbi/Brave vs Hydra as well... Jangbi played a 2 stargate build and didn't have enough units, before he simply died to a hydra drop in main (despite the sair count) and Brave was attempting a similar 2 stargate build before he was just busted down with a simple 3 hatch hydra push. You got Stork on your team why not use his tactics which actually work. Sairs seem to build up enough on their own from 1 gate if you protect them enough till they can fend off scourge, so thats a wasted investment for a start. Jangbi had good air distance to main which is why i guess he went for reaver, but Hydra obviously knew this too and kept easily enough defence to stop it doing anything. Yet he was getting templars as well (which didn't get storm in time), plus sairs from 2 stargates... poor use of gas and just a generally bad game. All this while Hydra was on a comfortable 4 bases with zero threat at any point. Pretty much the prime example of what NOT to do in a PvZ. My opinion: It does look tempting to sacrifice Spire to put the gas into lurker/hydra (maybe even double den? which would also feign a hydra bust); but sairs are too annoying and mobile to catch with pure hydra, and then when storm is out you can't group all your ovies near a hydra/spore defence and having all your 0 armour ovies cleaned up by +1 sairs at a critical time. Maybe a spire could be fit in at a correct timing a bit later once the early speedlot threat is nullified by the faster lurker. Certainly 4bases could be held with another main taken like this, just requiring spore/sunk for drops in the mains and ovies/hydra/lurker at the nats. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
Ok so Soulkey Vs By.Sun, he does infact do what i said above and skips the spire, fakes the hydra bust like ZerO did Vs Stork to force cannons that are not needed, then takes the 4th base. However he loses the 4th base in my opinion due to having 2 lurkers at a 3rd that was just warping in. Having 1 stop lurker behind min line would have been smart and leaving one back prehaps at the 4th. I think he was trying to morph a hydra on the ramp to stop their progression into the base but it failed, so a big loss there. Skips spire for ages and does a lurker/hydra/ling spread across the mid. After that it was a split map situation but excellent macro and aggression by Soulkey even against almost even bases won him the game.. i think a better Protoss would have won after killing the 4th though. A million storms couldn't hold off Soukeys insane aggression. So basically a fake Hydra bust seems like a good idea these days... cause the Toss simply can't tell if you will actually choose to bust or not. Maybe we'll see more of this in future. Then ZerO vs Bisu which i avoided reading discussion of earlier... despite the templar snipes he wins, probably due to getting so many hydras caught out of position at the top left base at one point. After those templar losses you'd really expect a win. He did the usual spire/den but i would have liked for him to have gone the Soulkey route instead... maybe the choice is because its Benzene. Yet again the sair numbers caused problems and scourge became much less useful than usual, except as scouts. I do like the Woonjin Zergs use of Burrow though. I'm surprised it wasn't used instead of retreating drones considering obs wasn't out. If we imagine the game if he had gone just solely gas into lurker/hydra... the top could have been held, and the ovies could have been placed around the hatches at natural and 3rd along with hydras and a spore. Using lings as scouts, especially with burrow would have been enough to see what's going on i think. I'm sure we'll see a revised build and particular for Benzene soon enough... remember HBR being considering a P > Z map for a while until it was figured out. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
Delaying Spire is a bad idea imo, gives Corsairs free reign of the skies, and the later scourge means you won't be able to get any proper intel on what build the Protoss is using (be it Sair/DT, Sair/Reaver, or 4-6 Gate Zealot-allin). If the Protoss decides to upgrade +1 air weapons, your ovies are going to pop sooo damn fast because you aren't going to get +1 Air Carapace done fast enough. | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
In short, faking going all in 3 Hatch Hydra is cute but it is easily discoverable. | ||
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aimaimaim
Philippines2167 Posts
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KT_FlaSh
9 Posts
In my view, zergling and lurker are better than pure hydra when against zealots and ht. | ||
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
On January 25 2011 16:09 KT_FlaSh wrote: If  July did not retired, I believe that he will show a better ZVP......fixed  | ||
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Jragon
Australia1471 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:05 baubo wrote: Nothing like a PvZ thread to bring out the Bisu fanboyism. Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM. I find that the general trend is that protosses aren't going for fast 3rd anymore. They basically use speedlots/sairs to gain map control, and turtle until the entire ball rolls out, which hard counters hydras. The late 3rd is also map dependent, as mains with less minerals prevent the protoss from turtling hard at the beginning. So with large number of patches at main/expo, protoss can stay on two base longer, allowing them more time to produce the dreaded protoss ball.As for +1/speedlot attack, it has always been map-dependent. Because zerg rely on sim-cities to defend it. Bad zerg sim-city -> no drone-whoring -> no gazillion hydra to overrun tosses. It makes a ton of difference how many sunkens and lings you need to defend the zealots. If by mirror you mean mirror his success at the matchup: (from the SKT v Stars thread) On January 24 2011 23:06 Finale wrote: 14-26 is the current stat for Winners League alone, but you deducted Bisu's PvZ record for both WL and SPL. Minus Bisu's 6-0 in Winners League, the current PvZ match up is 14-20. Also worth mentioning: Bisu (6-0), Stork (5-0), Violet (4-0), Stats (3-0), and Jaehoon (2-0) account for 20/26 PvZ wins. Bisu's certainly leading the way, but other tosses aren't doing too badly. In most of the recent matches I've seen it's been all simcity, hydra and a few scourge from the zerg. How feasible is a muta/scourge response to wrest back air control? Is it impossible to regain once the Protoss has the critical mass of corsairs? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 25 2011 12:47 Xiphos wrote: The thing that baffled me the most about the "fake 3 Hatch hydra all-in" is that the Protoss players will be likely smarter using Corsairs instead to fly outside of their natural and flying on top of the Zerg bases checking for any more tech. If Zerg actually get a spire instead of staying on the hydra den, then cancel those 2 cannons morphing in immediately and move out OR if it has already been moved in, get a probe out and build your third with the couple of the Zealots making it safe since your natural will be most likely be protected by the cannons. This makes Zerg trying to kill off the third while you continue massing up the Corsairs count to counter them Mutas/Scourge. In short, faking going all in 3 Hatch Hydra is cute but it is easily discoverable. Isn't the timing of the fake all-in before stargate is complete? As for delaying spire it does leave you blind yes, but the build i'm suggesting should cover for them really. There's always the possibly of moving in overlord before sair is out, i'm not sure what the last info you can get from that is. I would have thought you might see a templar archives in time, dunno about robotics bay. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 25 2011 22:04 infinity2k9 wrote: Isn't the timing of the fake all-in before stargate is complete? As for delaying spire it does leave you blind yes, but the build i'm suggesting should cover for them really. There's always the possibly of moving in overlord before sair is out, i'm not sure what the last info you can get from that is. I would have thought you might see a templar archives in time, dunno about robotics bay. overlord moves in so slow that you won't be able to get any info from a competent toss. Maybe the first or second time, but after that a Dragoon will surely be there to chase away any lumbering overlord that tries to come in. If Protoss goes Sair-Reaver, well great you wasted money on sunkens you didn't need. If he went 5 Gate Dragoon or Sair/Dragoon, you'll have an incredibly hard time fighting it off. You'll also have a lot of fun trying to fend off Sair/DT (drop) w/o the help of scourge and +1 Air Carapace. Skipping (or delaying) the Spire is like skipping the Stargate in PvZ, it might be good against a couple of builds, but it sucks otherwise and you lose the ability to scout. | ||
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Iplaythings
Denmark9110 Posts
Either that play or double stargate reavers, thats the 2 builds we're seeing, and in some months people will have figured this out, and then people will figure something out to that counter, etc. Thats just starcraft, even if zerg has been on top for the longest time. Its refreshing to see protoss' winning alot with it, especially after last year of zergs doing so painfully dumb "OH HEY! LETS PLAY LAIR TECH ON 3 BASES VS PROTOSS ON 3 BASES". Stupid play like that happend alot on judgement day especially. | ||
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Crimson)S(hadow
Philippines593 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On January 26 2011 06:16 Crimson)S(hadow wrote: how would zergs counter this stacked +1 corsair? ensnare since they are stacked? even then, stacking would still make it really hard to clone scourge, and i'm pretty sure ensnared sairs still rape mutas i actually think calm came quite close to countering this sort of play. he basically got queens with ensnare got lurkers and rushed to defilers straight into late game. | ||
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
I ask because I play only in FS (have no time to practice many maps) and I have just decided to the change my standard PvZ from the 4-gate 2 archons to this build. So I just want to know if it's still that strong in FS. Thanks. | ||
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On January 26 2011 09:10 kamikami wrote: Hey guys I have a question : does this build become any different if played in fighting spirit, or it's just the same ? The map doesn't affect this build ? I ask because I play only in FS (have no time to practice many maps) and I have just decided to the change my standard PvZ from the 4-gate 2 archons to this build. So I just want to know if it's still that strong in FS. Thanks. yes. the fast 2 gate zealot rush still applies. a zerg would most likely take his third at the natural of another starting location, giving him the space to move to get a 4th base much more comfortably. unlike the map like benzene, the thirds are quite open and there isn't a free 4th base for him. therefore, this 2 gate zealot thing excels more on maps like benzene. btw, 4 gate 2 archon is way out-dated. it would be easily crushed by the 5 hatch hydra play. the standard before this new face of play was the +1 speedlot rush into mid-late game with ht tech. the balance was based on the situation if zerg would be able to snipe hts or not. | ||
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shmay
United States1091 Posts
corsairs are constantly returning to and leaving the main base, so why not put a shield battery there so that they can replenish their shields each time they come back? | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
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JMave
Singapore1806 Posts
On January 27 2011 06:59 infinity2k9 wrote: Did i just see my ensnare plan put into play very poorly in Soulkey vs Reach? Haha. calm did it against bisu i think and he did it quite well. was a pity he lost. | ||
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vulture7
New Zealand48 Posts
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ZeroChrome
Canada1001 Posts
On January 27 2011 08:33 vulture7 wrote: Hey I was just wondering, when you do the 2 gate zealot rush, will +1 weapon attack be finished by the time your zealots reach the zerg's base? if you spend your first 100 gas on +1 then I think it will be done in time, but that delays the rush itself and corsairs. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 27 2011 08:44 ZeroChrome wrote: if you spend your first 100 gas on +1 then I think it will be done in time, but that delays the rush itself and corsairs. in this order: Stargate +1 Weapons Citadel Second Gateway Speed Sair/Zealot Pump Templar Archives as soon as you can w/o cutting army production (usually after 6 or so zealots) or you just refer to this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16 | ||
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kamikami
France1057 Posts
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 27 2011 09:34 kamikami wrote: I have another question : The +1 air weapon, when to get it ? I know that after the archives and initial 2 gate push we must add another 4 gates and expand + obs tech at the same time. But when to get the +1 air weapon that seems to be crucial in this build ? referring to some recent games (vShine and Roro, Roro going for quick Muta/Scourge while Shine going mostly Lings), Bisu seems to fit it after making 2 more gates, before adding another 2 for the 6 Gate count. | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/a/a0/Corsair_SC1_HeadAnim.gif) edit: seriously though, I think that protoss has finally found a favorable reply to the 3h->5h zerg play that has defined the matchup for a while now, and zerg is going to be at a disadvantage until someone (by which I mean Jaedong, lol) comes up with something new. | ||
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hellbound
United Kingdom2242 Posts
Well the MSL Ro8 seems to imply that PvZ is back to normalcy | ||
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Crunchums
United States11144 Posts
On January 29 2011 16:27 hellbound wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well the MSL Ro8 seems to imply that PvZ is back to normalcy + Show Spoiler + jaedong winning a zvp and kal choking? business as usual yeah, but i don't think it's enough to say that | ||
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vishrut
United States567 Posts
On January 29 2011 16:30 Crunchums wrote: + Show Spoiler + jaedong winning a zvp and kal choking? business as usual yeah, but i don't think it's enough to say that kal seriously fucked up the new pvz style. losing his corsairs and not really being aggressive with the zealots | ||
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WhuazGoodJaggah
Lesotho777 Posts
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Xma
United States147 Posts
Duh archon/reaver/ht are also strong lategame, but can toss truly be in an advantage lategame if on equal footing with maxed armies/expos ect? | ||
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