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mustaju
Estonia4504 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:06 deafhobbit wrote: Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. What Stork Series vs. Calm?!? | ||
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renzy
Canada781 Posts
I think he meant modesty. LOL. MODESTY. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. Mass Corsairs also abuse the fact that Scourges can't fight. Lurker counter Marines, but you can micro the Marines well and kill them instead. You can't do that with your Scourges and if the Protoss user has good control, you will never kill a Corsair. So it depends entirely on the skill of the P. You can try and attack them from both sides, but it doesn't really matter, they can evade your units. Another problem is that you lose a lot of gas in the process. And you can't really not build Scourges since you never know whether they will be effective. You don't really have an alternative anyway. Hydras are ground units and at best, they can protect a bunch of Overlords. The problem is then, that you can't use them and thus won't gain map control. Mutas are not an option and other than that, there isn't really anything left. Once they have mass Corsairs, they can play it with pretty much everything. Shuttle play is preffered of course. You could try and hit the P before he gets too many Sairs(all-in Hydra), but they always turtle 2 bases and have either a Reaver or HTs. But this is, in my opinion, still the best option versus a top Protoss player. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:05 baubo wrote: ...Other protosses aren't exactly mirroring Bisu's PvZ, especially since no other protoss as nearly Bisu's APM... fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. | ||
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Lucumo
6850 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:33 ArvickHero wrote: I guess Violet could fit the bill, depending on how his form is, and I would cut Stats as above average fsho. I was thinking more of Shuttle, Sun, Tyson, etc.. Since when is Han "your average protoss player"? Sun is still too new and I guess Shuttle actually counts even though he is incredible inconsistent vZ. Apart from that: Why is ZergBong named NesTea in the BW TLPD? | ||
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ibreakurface
United States664 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:06 deafhobbit wrote: Storks series v calm is a better answer. Seriously, every P is playing well v Z lately, not just Bisu. Yeah, but bisu gets all the love no matter what the situation. Watch violet v jaedong imo. | ||
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Kaervek56
Australia273 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Just to add on to this, Pure and Violet are also high apm protoss players at around 330-350, so it's not like Bisu is head and shoulders above other protoss mechanically. | ||
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]343[
United States10328 Posts
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Fishmalk
74 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:25 Lucumo wrote: Since when is Han "your average protoss player"? If tyson isn't, than who is? | ||
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Froadac
United States6733 Posts
I mean, you end up in a situation where hydra busts arei ncreasingly rare, so toss is increasingly greedy. And hte speedzealot was rediscovered. All adds up to PvZ dominance. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. Not to turn this into an APM discussion but unless APM's have drastically gone up in the past year or two 300+ is still pretty high APM. In probably 7/10, maybe a little more of the games I have the APM is in a 260-300 range. Some of the progamers like Jaedong, Really, and effort get APM's anywhere from like 330-400 depending on the game, however the EAPM is still pretty consistent. Jaedong seems to have a redundancy of around 40-45% whereas Bisu, who doesn't seem to quite average 300 APM, frequent has a redundancy in the mid 20% range. As a result they have similar EAPM's which in my experience tends to correlate pretty well to a players multitasking. An EAPM in the neighborhood of 170-180 seems to be about average, with your Bisu's, Baby's, and JD's getting into the lower 200's. When it comes to multitasking though Kal is the only other protoss that gets near Bisu's EAPM/multitask. Everyone else is down in the 160-180 range, its all fast but Bisu and to a lesser extent, Kal, are the only hyper fast protosses. | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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King[Neikos]
Costa Rica506 Posts
when the toss has poor sair control/production they lose the economic advantage and zerg is able to mass up enough to stop the push and any other that comes later | ||
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Kimaker
United States2131 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:42 ]343[ wrote: wait... is everyone forgetting how almost every protoss lost to hydra bust just 2-3 months ago? protoss stopped cutting a few corners, and zerg is cutting more--leading to bigger unit difference at the timings when tosses attack now OH SNAP. A challenger appears  I'd have to lean toward this interpretation of events. P is playing safer overall, by being aggressive in a timing before the hydra's can hit. Forces the Zerg into positions that are NOT conducive to a hydra bust, and when they finally get their shit together, P has everything he needs to stop the bust, making the entire attack ineffectual to attempt. It may LOOK riskier with all the zealot aggression, but when you hold it up to the standard Z game right now, it's actual pretty safe. | ||
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
zergs need to start building quick spores again lol. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In your first post, you specifically said that it's Bisu's PvZ that led the entire protoss race into the current PvZ imba. Now you say what sets him apart is his polished builds and sense that are beyond mortal protosses? So which one is it? Did Bisu change the metagame of PvZ so that all protosses mediocre or otherwise can kill zergs easily? Or is Bisu succeeding at PvZ because he's simply good at it, while other protosses are trying their own builds which they also succeed? I have seen many amazing different PvZ BOs recently, most of them not done by Bisu. Yes, there are protosses who can beat zerg by playing differently from Bisu. I know that might blow the minds of Bisu fans, but it is actually true. | ||
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Ideas
United States8144 Posts
can anyone think of any games where hte zerg went lurkers 1st and a protoss did the zeal rush? do lurkers not finish in time? or does that just mean zerg loses a bunch of overlords? | ||
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Exchange
131 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:22 ArvickHero wrote: fun fact: Bisu's APM isn't actually that high by Progamer standards. It sits somewhere between 300-350, usually on the lower end of that. Kal has higher APM like 400+ I believe. Anyways, it's not Bisu's APM that sets his PvZ apart, but rather his amazing PvZ aggression/sense, micro, and polished builds that makes him the king of PvZ. Hah. I remember the times, when sAviOr rape everyone with 200 apm))) | ||
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henzi
United States200 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. I think the other comment have pointed it out. It's not about the HT snipes, it's about the air dominance that's really thrown this match up out of whack. Where as before, the 'toss would build a mix of units including dragoons after a few zealots, then reavers or templars, then late game. All this can come at the cost of air dominance. But the current (dare I say Bisu) build is a focus on just zealots, leaving gas for tech and cosairs. With this mass of cosairs, it forces the zerg to mainly hydras that stay at home to protect overlords. Most of Bisu's current games end without really the need for storm. His early zealot pressure apparently ends the overall game. Of course you can still win going 2 lots, dragoon, to zlot pressure, to reavers gg, as Stork has done of late. | ||
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ArvickHero
10387 Posts
On January 23 2011 17:44 baubo wrote: I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. In your first post, you specifically said that it's Bisu's PvZ that led the entire protoss race into the current PvZ imba. Now you say what sets him apart is his polished builds and sense that are beyond mortal protosses? So which one is it? Did Bisu change the metagame of PvZ so that all protosses mediocre or otherwise can kill zergs easily? Or is Bisu succeeding at PvZ because he's simply good at it, while other protosses are trying their own builds which they also succeed? I have seen many amazing different PvZ BOs recently, most of them not done by Bisu. Yes, there are protosses who can beat zerg by playing differently from Bisu. I know that might blow the minds of Bisu fans, but it is actually true. ...? The point of my first post was the new foundation of PvZ (2 Gate +1 Speedlot [w/ sairs I might add]) giving Protosses a much superior build to work with in PvZ and their smartening up in cutting corners. Bisu simply plays this strategy to perfection, due to his killer sense/micro (you can't dispute that BvZ is different from PvZ) I did disclaim that there were a bunch of other things I didn't note, so don't hate me for not attributing Stork's own achievements in the matchup. Other things I could say about the recent shift w/o researching VODs is that Protosses in general are playing a lot of off-beat timing attacks that catch Zerg offguard a lot (KT Protosses come into mind, as does Khan tosses), and Jaehoon has been pretty strategically diverse in PvZ (not all of them good tho lol). There have also been some extremely impressive use of Splash Toss too, in terms of timing and control (Snow, Stork and Kal pop into my head). | ||
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