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On January 25 2011 12:47 Xiphos wrote:
The thing that baffled me the most about the "fake 3 Hatch hydra all-in" is that the Protoss players will be likely smarter using Corsairs instead to fly outside of their natural and flying on top of the Zerg bases checking for any more tech. If Zerg actually get a spire instead of staying on the hydra den, then cancel those 2 cannons morphing in immediately and move out OR if it has already been moved in, get a probe out and build your third with the couple of the Zealots making it safe since your natural will be most likely be protected by the cannons. This makes Zerg trying to kill off the third while you continue massing up the Corsairs count to counter them Mutas/Scourge.
In short, faking going all in 3 Hatch Hydra is cute but it is easily discoverable.
Isn't the timing of the fake all-in before stargate is complete?
As for delaying spire it does leave you blind yes, but the build i'm suggesting should cover for them really. There's always the possibly of moving in overlord before sair is out, i'm not sure what the last info you can get from that is. I would have thought you might see a templar archives in time, dunno about robotics bay.
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On January 25 2011 22:04 infinity2k9 wrote:Show nested quote +On January 25 2011 12:47 Xiphos wrote:
The thing that baffled me the most about the "fake 3 Hatch hydra all-in" is that the Protoss players will be likely smarter using Corsairs instead to fly outside of their natural and flying on top of the Zerg bases checking for any more tech. If Zerg actually get a spire instead of staying on the hydra den, then cancel those 2 cannons morphing in immediately and move out OR if it has already been moved in, get a probe out and build your third with the couple of the Zealots making it safe since your natural will be most likely be protected by the cannons. This makes Zerg trying to kill off the third while you continue massing up the Corsairs count to counter them Mutas/Scourge.
In short, faking going all in 3 Hatch Hydra is cute but it is easily discoverable. Isn't the timing of the fake all-in before stargate is complete? As for delaying spire it does leave you blind yes, but the build i'm suggesting should cover for them really. There's always the possibly of moving in overlord before sair is out, i'm not sure what the last info you can get from that is. I would have thought you might see a templar archives in time, dunno about robotics bay.
overlord moves in so slow that you won't be able to get any info from a competent toss. Maybe the first or second time, but after that a Dragoon will surely be there to chase away any lumbering overlord that tries to come in. If Protoss goes Sair-Reaver, well great you wasted money on sunkens you didn't need. If he went 5 Gate Dragoon or Sair/Dragoon, you'll have an incredibly hard time fighting it off. You'll also have a lot of fun trying to fend off Sair/DT (drop) w/o the help of scourge and +1 Air Carapace. Skipping (or delaying) the Spire is like skipping the Stargate in PvZ, it might be good against a couple of builds, but it sucks otherwise and you lose the ability to scout.
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Well I dont know how necessary this thread is, since we basically all know the sair zealot push often followed by sair dt and or quick third action.
Either that play or double stargate reavers, thats the 2 builds we're seeing, and in some months people will have figured this out, and then people will figure something out to that counter, etc.
Thats just starcraft, even if zerg has been on top for the longest time. Its refreshing to see protoss' winning alot with it, especially after last year of zergs doing so painfully dumb "OH HEY! LETS PLAY LAIR TECH ON 3 BASES VS PROTOSS ON 3 BASES".
Stupid play like that happend alot on judgement day especially.
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how would zergs counter this stacked +1 corsair? ensnare since they are stacked? even then, stacking would still make it really hard to clone scourge, and i'm pretty sure ensnared sairs still rape mutas
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On January 26 2011 06:16 Crimson)S(hadow wrote:
how would zergs counter this stacked +1 corsair? ensnare since they are stacked? even then, stacking would still make it really hard to clone scourge, and i'm pretty sure ensnared sairs still rape mutas
i actually think calm came quite close to countering this sort of play. he basically got queens with ensnare got lurkers and rushed to defilers straight into late game.
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Hey guys I have a question : does this build become any different if played in fighting spirit, or it's just the same ? The map doesn't affect this build ?
I ask because I play only in FS (have no time to practice many maps) and I have just decided to the change my standard PvZ from the 4-gate 2 archons to this build. So I just want to know if it's still that strong in FS.
Thanks.
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On January 26 2011 09:10 kamikami wrote:
Hey guys I have a question : does this build become any different if played in fighting spirit, or it's just the same ? The map doesn't affect this build ?
I ask because I play only in FS (have no time to practice many maps) and I have just decided to the change my standard PvZ from the 4-gate 2 archons to this build. So I just want to know if it's still that strong in FS.
Thanks.
yes. the fast 2 gate zealot rush still applies. a zerg would most likely take his third at the natural of another starting location, giving him the space to move to get a 4th base much more comfortably. unlike the map like benzene, the thirds are quite open and there isn't a free 4th base for him. therefore, this 2 gate zealot thing excels more on maps like benzene.
btw, 4 gate 2 archon is way out-dated. it would be easily crushed by the 5 hatch hydra play. the standard before this new face of play was the +1 speedlot rush into mid-late game with ht tech. the balance was based on the situation if zerg would be able to snipe hts or not.
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here's something i've been thinking about in terms of pvz strat:
corsairs are constantly returning to and leaving the main base, so why not put a shield battery there so that they can replenish their shields each time they come back?
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Did i just see my ensnare plan put into play very poorly in Soulkey vs Reach? Haha.
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On January 27 2011 06:59 infinity2k9 wrote:
Did i just see my ensnare plan put into play very poorly in Soulkey vs Reach? Haha.
calm did it against bisu i think and he did it quite well. was a pity he lost.
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Hey I was just wondering, when you do the 2 gate zealot rush, will +1 weapon attack be finished by the time your zealots reach the zerg's base?
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On January 27 2011 08:33 vulture7 wrote:
Hey I was just wondering, when you do the 2 gate zealot rush, will +1 weapon attack be finished by the time your zealots reach the zerg's base?
if you spend your first 100 gas on +1 then I think it will be done in time, but that delays the rush itself and corsairs.
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On January 27 2011 08:44 ZeroChrome wrote:Show nested quote +On January 27 2011 08:33 vulture7 wrote:
Hey I was just wondering, when you do the 2 gate zealot rush, will +1 weapon attack be finished by the time your zealots reach the zerg's base? if you spend your first 100 gas on +1 then I think it will be done in time, but that delays the rush itself and corsairs.
in this order:
Stargate
+1 Weapons
Citadel
Second Gateway
Speed
Sair/Zealot Pump
Templar Archives as soon as you can w/o cutting army production (usually after 6 or so zealots)
or you just refer to this http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=169875#16
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I have another question : The +1 air weapon, when to get it ? I know that after the archives and initial 2 gate push we must add another 4 gates and expand + obs tech at the same time. But when to get the +1 air weapon that seems to be crucial in this build ?
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10387 Posts
On January 27 2011 09:34 kamikami wrote:
I have another question : The +1 air weapon, when to get it ? I know that after the archives and initial 2 gate push we must add another 4 gates and expand + obs tech at the same time. But when to get the +1 air weapon that seems to be crucial in this build ?
referring to some recent games (vShine and Roro, Roro going for quick Muta/Scourge while Shine going mostly Lings), Bisu seems to fit it after making 2 more gates, before adding another 2 for the 6 Gate count.
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btw i found the current face of pvz:
+ Show Spoiler +
edit: seriously though, I think that protoss has finally found a favorable reply to the 3h->5h zerg play that has defined the matchup for a while now, and zerg is going to be at a disadvantage until someone (by which I mean Jaedong, lol) comes up with something new.
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On January 29 2011 16:27 hellbound wrote:+ Show Spoiler +Well the MSL Ro8 seems to imply that PvZ is back to normalcy
+ Show Spoiler +jaedong winning a zvp and kal choking? business as usual yeah, but i don't think it's enough to say that
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On January 29 2011 16:30 Crunchums wrote:+ Show Spoiler +jaedong winning a zvp and kal choking? business as usual yeah, but i don't think it's enough to say that
kal seriously fucked up the new pvz style. losing his corsairs and not really being aggressive with the zealots
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I really like the current face of PvZ the MSL quarter finals were extreme cool to watch back and forth all the time.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://images.wikia.com/starcraft/images/a/a0/Corsair_SC1_HeadAnim.gif)
