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kamikami
France1057 Posts
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Goragoth
New Zealand1065 Posts
A similar thing happened when Terrans started doing mech builds a couple of years ago and Zergs were getting rolled for a while, then they adapted and the match-up was more balanced again. Before that it was the original Bisu build that had Zergs stumped for several months. I'm pretty sure that we'll see Zergs adjust once again to the change in timings and things will go back to normal, though it could take a few months for that to happen. | ||
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slappy
United States1271 Posts
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Deleted User 37864
780 Posts
On January 23 2011 18:55 kamikami wrote: Well, if the new foundation of PvZ is now created and demonstrated by the revolutionist again, anyone cares to write the BO of it and put it in liquidpedia ? So that we low level Protoss can apply it and own Zergs more ? It seems that I am playing PvZ style of 2 years ago lol. i can not play starcraft at the moment (on my laptop), but i can give the transitions that i have noticed while observing bisu's games. so it's not a unit count by count build order but i hope it helps: remember keep probe production nonstop. make pylons whenever you need to. - FE --> (nexus/forge/2cannons.. order depends on zerg's opening) - gateway in nat --> gas at base --> core immediately after gateway finishes - when nat finishes, make natural gas - when core finishes, make stargate (nonstop corsairs), and then citadel all that i mentioned was normal PvZ .. and here comes the new build after citadel is made (get speed when it finishes), upgrade your +1 after you used your minerals on +1, make the 2ND gateway in natural push out soon after and have constant pressure key points: keep constant probe AND zealot production. also keep constant corsair production and make sure NONE dies. also, use your 1st and 2nd corsairs to snipe overlords and scout. pay attention to their spire and when you feel scourges are coming, go back to base and dont use your corsairs anymore. mass up to 6-7 and then use them in a group (along with a trapped probe to stack the sairs) sorry if that was confusing lol. my upgrades timing are probably off because i do not know the exact times for each upgrade. but im guessing it's +1 first, then speed, then air +1 basically, it used to be 1 gateway into fast templar archives to get storms ASAP, but now it is changed. instead of 1 gateway, you delay the templar archives in favor of double gateways to put pressure with your big zealot army | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
It's good to see Protoss players finally pulling together and implementing various ideas into game games, using air domination as advantage with shuttles of DT/HT/Reaver. I know someone will probably just tell me to shut up with this but Queen/Ensnare on sair ball possible at some reasonable timing? I think it's too slow but i'd love to see that. Also i'm not sure abbut the maps exactly and how simcity works at each location but simply doing a full wall-in when lots moving out might be worth it then kill your way out a bit later. They seem to be letting them in and failing to defend every game these days. Previously i remember solid walls that wouldn't even be worth touching, i guess the zeal count makes the big difference. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
most of you wrote that it is the use of speedzealots that is making the protoss win more games, but i don't think that is true +1 speed zealot has been around for quite some time. For me, the first time ive seen the build is an All-star game between bisu and jaedong in destination. The build was used by many players, in like heartbreak ridge destination, fighting spirit etc. Violet vs Hyuk heartbreak ridge The build is : normal up to stargate, then +1 attack ground, citadel, 1 corsair, cutting probes and upgrading zealot leg and 2nd gateway, constant zealot production, and move out with around 6 zealots, templar archive etc normally speed finishes first, so they start running when they are at middle of map The most notable change since then to now is the use of corsairs. In the past, upgrading +1 air was 80% for corsair reaver play, or protoss progamers made a few corsairs in order to fight off mutalisks raiding main nexus, or to protect high templars, but these corsairs rarely had +1 air weapon upgraded, or weren't great numbers Example game is bisu vs jaedong heartbreak ridge, bisu makes a few extra corsairs (without +1 air) to assist dragoons to protect high templars. But now the use of corsairs improved dramatically. fast zealot themselves aren't very effective because simcity is imba and zerg could go fast lurker and just scratch zealots. Nowadays many protoss progamers go +1 air corsairs and make like 6~8 every game. In the past this was not effective because stacking them wasn't really discovered (of course, they knew how but it was not popularly used), making them vulnerable to very small number of scourges. losing 1 corsair is quite damaging cuz corsairs cost 100 gas. With the stuck-probe stacking, progamers now maximised and optimised the use of corsairs. and with +1 attack, main nexus NEVER gets raided by muta/scourge unless there is only 1 cannon. They can move around the map as a dot and this increases their stealth, and also it is now harder to attack individual corsairs with many scourges (as in make 2 scourges hit 1 corsair by shift-unselecting) they also became easier to maneuver cuz moving as a dot, it has become easier to avoid hydras (when hydras aim attack on 1 corsir, they die easily) this means zergs now make more scourges to try to counter the corsairs than the past. in the past, to counter like 6 corsairs +1 unstacked, you could do it with like 15 scourges and the surviving corsairs were no threat. Now you need a lot more scourges AND +1 air armor AND some muta to take hits, AND good micro and spread of scourges. Even with these, corsairs can just run away t cannnons. What is more, zerg is forced to make spore colonies to protect overlords (but spore colonies have limited range, and protoss can pull the corsair that is getting hit). watch jaedong vs violet benzene, and you'll see how many overlords jaedong lost and eventually cost him game. | ||
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baubo
China3370 Posts
On January 23 2011 19:34 scyper wrote: i can not play starcraft at the moment (on my laptop), but i can give the transitions that i have noticed while observing bisu's games. so it's not a unit count by count build order but i hope it helps: remember keep probe production nonstop. make pylons whenever you need to. - FE --> (nexus/forge/2cannons.. order depends on zerg's opening) - gateway in nat --> gas at base --> core immediately after gateway finishes - when nat finishes, make natural gas - when core finishes, make stargate (nonstop corsairs), and then citadel all that i mentioned was normal PvZ .. and here comes the new build after citadel is made (get speed when it finishes), upgrade your +1 after you used your minerals on +1, make the 2ND gateway in natural push out soon after and have constant pressure key points: keep constant probe AND zealot production. also keep constant corsair production and make sure NONE dies. also, use your 1st and 2nd corsairs to snipe overlords and scout. pay attention to their spire and when you feel scourges are coming, go back to base and dont use your corsairs anymore. mass up to 6-7 and then use them in a group (along with a trapped probe to stack the sairs) sorry if that was confusing lol. my upgrades timing are probably off because i do not know the exact times for each upgrade. but im guessing it's +1 first, then speed, then air +1 basically, it used to be 1 gateway into fast templar archives to get storms ASAP, but now it is changed. instead of 1 gateway, you delay the templar archives in favor of double gateways to put pressure with your big zealot army Was the build came up by Bisu? I thought Kal used it first. Maybe I'm wrong though. This build is also dependent on a big natural. Which is map-dependent. I believe maps like Destination does not give the space needed to "hide" that 2nd gateway. Edit: Upon close examination of your post, I'm pretty sure there are some probe cutting involved, as the timing has been much quicker than past +1/speedlot attacks. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
corsairs guarantee high templar protection from mutalisk snipe. THis makes massing hydralisks very ineffective unless protoss mis-storms badly. so from a "typical" 5 hatchery mass hydra, mutalisk, zergs are going "lets focus on countering corsairs with muta/mass scourge + spore, and defend against ground with sunkens/lurkers, and turtle. oh and since im turtling, let me make 6th hatchery in another expo and go 4th base hive very fast and use defiler to plague and go ultralisk" this is all because mutalisks have become "Weaker" as in less effective and they now rarely can do critical damage to protoss because of corsairs. in the past, the key advantage of 5hatchery play was you get 3 gas very early with stable defense using sim city against zealots, and with the gas zerg become VERY flexible and free in transitioning from hydra to muta, hydra to lurker, lurker to muta, lurker to lurker/ling etc.. many many combinations were possible. massing up and stacking corsairs counter many mutalisk transitions. if you watch recent PvZ games, zergs take 3 gas later than before and they instead focus on 6th hatchery and prefer to go hive earlier and fight protoss with defielrs. jaedong tried this against violet but lost way too many overlords and this screwed him up | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
It's the use of corsairs by bisu, who uses them brilliantly that is making him beat many zergs right now. and corsairs make room for zealots to break in, so it can seem like the zealots are the heroes but it's the cosairs that are being the king | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
On January 23 2011 15:50 Tazza wrote: Exactly, which is why the MU changed so much. Toss are absolutely dominating air right now, and zergs right now just can't handle that. This is why there are far less HT snipes. And back when zerg did dominate, toss didn't control air, opting for more archons instead of corsairs, and now, toss opts for corsairs without archons and 1 or 2 cannons to stop mutas. Corsairs are far more mobile than archons, and stops mutas from sniping HTs. And 2 templars can really make all the difference in a PvZ fight. Yes toss do go more zealots, but come around mid to late game, it doesn't matter how much army you have as toss, because without HTs, toss gets absolutely hammered by zerg. this man is correct | ||
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infinity2k9
United Kingdom2397 Posts
On January 23 2011 20:21 NrG.GoD- wrote: i don't think anyone here have yet pointed out the key change in pvz for recent games. most of you wrote that it is the use of speedzealots that is making the protoss win more games, but i don't think that is true +1 speed zealot has been around for quite some time. For me, the first time ive seen the build is an All-star game between bisu and jaedong in destination. The build was used by many players, in like heartbreak ridge destination, fighting spirit etc. Violet vs Hyuk heartbreak ridge The build is : normal up to stargate, then +1 attack ground, citadel, 1 corsair, cutting probes and upgrading zealot leg and 2nd gateway, constant zealot production, and move out with around 6 zealots, templar archive etc normally speed finishes first, so they start running when they are at middle of map The most notable change since then to now is the use of corsairs. In the past, upgrading +1 air was 80% for corsair reaver play, or protoss progamers made a few corsairs in order to fight off mutalisks raiding main nexus, or to protect high templars, but these corsairs rarely had +1 air weapon upgraded, or weren't great numbers Example game is bisu vs jaedong heartbreak ridge, bisu makes a few extra corsairs (without +1 air) to assist dragoons to protect high templars. But now the use of corsairs improved dramatically. fast zealot themselves aren't very effective because simcity is imba and zerg could go fast lurker and just scratch zealots. Nowadays many protoss progamers go +1 air corsairs and make like 6~8 every game. In the past this was not effective because stacking them wasn't really discovered (of course, they knew how but it was not popularly used), making them vulnerable to very small number of scourges. losing 1 corsair is quite damaging cuz corsairs cost 100 gas. With the stuck-probe stacking, progamers now maximised and optimised the use of corsairs. and with +1 attack, main nexus NEVER gets raided by muta/scourge unless there is only 1 cannon. They can move around the map as a dot and this increases their stealth, and also it is now harder to attack individual corsairs with many scourges (as in make 2 scourges hit 1 corsair by shift-unselecting) they also became easier to maneuver cuz moving as a dot, it has become easier to avoid hydras (when hydras aim attack on 1 corsir, they die easily) this means zergs now make more scourges to try to counter the corsairs than the past. in the past, to counter like 6 corsairs +1 unstacked, you could do it with like 15 scourges and the surviving corsairs were no threat. Now you need a lot more scourges AND +1 air armor AND some muta to take hits, AND good micro and spread of scourges. Even with these, corsairs can just run away t cannnons. What is more, zerg is forced to make spore colonies to protect overlords (but spore colonies have limited range, and protoss can pull the corsair that is getting hit). watch jaedong vs violet benzene, and you'll see how many overlords jaedong lost and eventually cost him game. You explained it better than me. I think the sairs are really the problem for the Z here. They wait till they got enough up for them to rip through scourge, and even the mass floods of scourge i see Z's build in PvZ (and ZvZ actually, definitely more scourge heavy anyone else notice that?) isn't enough. It was already a problem for Z's in general, but now it's clearly even a problem for the top ones, as evidenced by JD vs Violet (although JD played strangely/badly the overlord kill count lost him it anyway imo). I don't see a direct solution/counter really (except the half-serious but not really queen with ensnare on the sair ball) other than 'play better' though to be honest. Protect your ovies, target fire sairs, catch em offguard or coming out of stargate. If you got 6gate like some really greedy zergs are going lately how are you supposed to build any protection for them? You're not gaining an eco advantage when you lose a shitload of ovies. Surely pro zergs must have worked out the cost/benefit ratio of an extra hatch as opposed to some hydras or something, when you got overlords dying everywhere. I know the queen thing is a bit of a joke but i'd love to see the timing of how fast ensnare can get done in relation to the pack of sairs moving out. The gas cost should be offset by the amount of non-wasted scourge smashing into the slow sairs. I got no idea offhand of the speed of that upgrade though.. Btw for those who immediately dismiss this: Remember another PvZ lately with a supposed useless unit, the Dark Archon. I think Shuttle killed like 9 muta's in about 3 seconds in a single game winning move. Let's not dismiss tools we have at our disposal... ensnare is a lovely last resort move for detecting DT's too because of the current overlord problem. Plus you get parasite which is useful to cast on archons for complete vision of army movement, and if you're completely awesome then you could even use Spawn Broodling for the templar sniping with the sairs out of the way. I'm just afraid the research time is a bit high unfortunately :/ I'd love it if a good level TL player would try this though. My Z play is 120apm atrociousness. I know this is a bit silly and feel free to ridicule or explain the obvious faults but i'm just a fan of thinking up new ideas. Edit: I should vote that Great used Queens against P on Benzene the other day.. i don't think he had my plan i mind or what he was doing really but ensnare's still are useful outside of this, it's certainly not a one shot thing. Ensnared retreated toss forces get eaten alive by lings. | ||
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the-Undermind
Canada106 Posts
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Yamoth
United States315 Posts
On January 23 2011 16:29 ibreakurface wrote: Yeah, but bisu gets all the love no matter what the situation. Watch violet v jaedong imo. Are you fucken kidding me? The Violet vs Jaedong is so bad that it is hilarious to watch. As much as I love Jaedong, I lol so hard whenever he did his 3 hatch base into fail build. Back to the topic. I think the biggest reason why zerg have so much trouble in ZvP as of late is mainly due to the zealot only opening that leave the Protoss with so many option to tech even while still able to pump out an ungodly amount of crosair. This zealot only opening is so flexible that you even see people like Violet doing his super fast no crosair DT rush. | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
+ Show Spoiler + Delayed speed to get fast DT -> Modesty skips spores and add sunks and lose his expo to DT+sair. <3 Mind games | ||
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Quasimoto3000
United States471 Posts
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_Quasar_
Russian Federation4405 Posts
 Violet being on fire, read his wiki page where he says that he tries to follow Bisu's thoughts. In fact he is mini-Bisu lol  P.S.: OMG just watched his game list, and realized that the protoss who lost in a "lol kthx pwned" way to Hydra on Circuit Breaker, and the protoss who in the same way pwned Jaedong, Killer, Calm and Hero, are the same person. Violet really has changed a lot O_o | ||
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ZerOfy
United Kingdom405 Posts
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henzi
United States200 Posts
He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. | ||
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NrG.GoD-
Australia63 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:13 henzi wrote: He not correct. He's attributing the protoss' current build win to preventing high templar snipe, but that's not the case at all. The current build uses 2 gateway for zealot sairs, the previous build was a 1 gate to stargate, then tech reaver or templars, then 3 additional gates. The 2 gate sair build changes the "meta game" so that templar snipe isn't really a part of the zerg tech path. The 2 gate push forces the zerg to mass hydra turtle to just stay alive into the hive tech. it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct | ||
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Xiphos
Canada7507 Posts
On January 24 2011 03:48 NrG.GoD- wrote: it's always been 1 gateway into stargate, then additional gateways AFTER tech. number of gateways can always vary, and this isn't the key change that took place. The key change is protoss air domination through optimised use of corsairs. i don't understand what you mean by "2 gateways". it's ridiculous to make 2nd gateway before stargate. if you mean by adun then delaying templar archive and make gateway(S) instead, this build has been around for a long time. number of zealots is pretty much insignificant unless it is like 4 gateways all in like bisu vs zero in bloody ridge. so Tazza is correct I think he is saying that right now, the build is 2 gate StarGate tech whereas before it was 1 Gate tech. The 2 gateways is too be "versatile". | ||
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