EPTThe Terran Help Me Thread - Page 451
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Make sure you read the OP before asking a question. Asking a question already addressed in the OP will result in moderation action. Also, please put some effort into your questions. | ||
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llIH
Norway2142 Posts
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 11 2013 11:08 dynwar7 wrote: Are there any solid and SAFE openers in TvT? Theres so many possible early aggression...proxy marauders, proxy reapers, cloakshee banshee marine hellion elevator etc. I feel that if I have to attack early to put on early aggression, he already has a banshee in my base, which I can counter using viking but if he has cloakshee I need to burns scans... I am quite lost in TvT One suggestion. If you want to improve (so naturally ignore the following if you don't care), stick to 1-2 builds and refine your play with them. I mean, a few days ago you were asking for agressive builds, now you want safe stuff; don't change every day once you run into difficulties, because there is a myriad of openings in TvT, and if you always change you will never learn how to deal with x, y, z when going a or b because you will already have switched to c, d, then e and maybe f. Bad builds can hold you back but if you always feel you need to change then something else is most likely wrong; I may be mistaken but I doubt whatever issues you face will be solved by trying to find a “magic build”. On February 11 2013 16:02 dynwar7 wrote: Does anyone have the build order for cloakshee expand in TvT? I am confused when to get my 2nd CC, 2nd gas (since I m going cloak), what to do with rax and fact while making banshee, etc. Thanks in advance Second gas at 20 supply, expand shortly after first Banshee anytime between 6'00 and 6'30 (can be later against 1-base agression of course) depending on how many Marines you build, which itself depends on whether you are safe or not (“not” includes no info). With Factory you make the Tech Lab, then a Reactor with 50 gas following Cloak + Banshee. On February 11 2013 16:32 eeChiama wrote: Hey there, have some questions. TvT-wise. I have been doing the good ol' Rax CC into 1-1-1, with a 3 tank 1 medivac push at around 9 mins (cutting corners), which I'm able to do if the other guy also fast expanded. Had mixed results, against the classic cc into 3 rax opening I can usually do some damage (my army always dies anyway, cant run tanks from stimmed marines), but then my stim is really delayed and they seize complete map control, soft contain, take their third and from there just outmacro. Indeed, which is precisely why you shouldn't do that; if your opponent went fast expand too and assuming good play from his part, you will end up behind if you attempt a Marines/Tanks push, whether he goes Hellions/Banshees or bio. Bomber, against another fast expo, did a more aggresive style of getting the hellions reactor'd and doing some serious pressure. Is this pressure something worth doing? Marine/Hellion/Medivac. He then was going into mech, but the game just ended there. It's a possibility, yes, but if it does not yield enough results you're in an awkward spot against 1 rax FE → 3 rax Medivacs because of the threat of a dual drop (e. g. Taeja vs Noblesse, Daybreak, Code S RO32; Noblesse went mech though); can't tell for sure but it's probably a way to metagame people who double expand in response to their opponent going 1 rax expand. In Taeja vs Bogus, Daybreak, Code S RO16 they played roughly the same build orders (some Hellions before third [from memory Bogus went 1 Medivac too] and Marines/Tanks transition) so they ended up cancelling each other. If, however, I'm not able to scout or run into a wall, should I simply just cc in base, scan 6:30min and just keep pumping marines in case of banshee until the viking comes out? With 15 gas the Viking should be out in time against a non-proxied Cloaked Banshee. What would be the timing of the second gas (or more) in both cases (agressive and defensive) ? 2x Bay, 3rd CC, or more Rax afterwards? If you're safe you can go third, dual ups then extra Barracks, but it depends on your opponent's build order and how things went with your pressure. ☺ Is Rax CC Rax recommended? You mean the ThorZaIN's build? On February 12 2013 10:27 geokilla wrote: Well how else am I supposed to play it? His turrets defended his bases. If I attacked head on like a game I played today, I lose my units super quickly. If I tried to drop on him, I lose my units quickly. If I moved my army, to another location, he can just scan and roll in and cut my reinforcements. Aren't BCs the end game unit for Terrans, if it gets drawn out like that? Here's a game I played today and I tried to take your advice on how to approach it if I get into a stalemate like the previous game. http://drop.sc/304100 Use your gas to transition into Vikings/Ravens/Battlecruisers (with dual air upgrades) if things are really blocked in a split map scenario. Nukes as you did is also a possibility, though you need to do it better to be succesful. Watch Bogus vs Taeja, Daybreak, Code S RO16 if you can, and Polt vs aLive, Daybreak, NASL Season 4. Your build order is bad by the way, play something else; early Tanks + dual ups makes you hopelessly passive and leads to those turtly games: your opponents don't know how to capitalize on your build order's weakness, so they do nothing and you can't do anything either before a long time, so unsurprisingly nothing happens. On February 13 2013 01:27 HugzForL wrote: I have a little question. I just got to master and i don't really know how to approach tvz when z goes roach/hydras style. I open 1rax FE into 2 gas then facto starport and go for the usual hellion/banshee harass. Even if i manage to kill a good dozen of drones i sometimes get completely ownd in the mid game eventhough i feel like i am ahead? This is exactly what happened there: http://drop.sc/304217 I don't exactly know what to do. Anyone? :D - You suffered unnecessary damage from his Roaches timing. Make 2-3 Bunkers in/behind your wall (at the ramp) at your natural and you hold easily without having to give back workers (then you're ahead). Get a Tank + Siege instead of two Medivacs; this way you will be able to secure your third earlier with less troubles. - Make a second Banshee if you get Cloak. Queue Drones with your Hellions so they don't auto-attack the Queen when you're not microing them, or try to go into the main. - The more supply there is, the more efficient your Marines/Marauders/Tanks/Medivacs mix is compared to his Roach/Hydralisk army, so avoid low-medium supply count fights and wait for the critical ranged mass if you can. - Dedicated Roach/Hydralisk means delayed/weaker Hive, so you have more time. If you attack too soon you increase the odds of running into his advantage, i. e. medium supply fights in which you don't have enough bio/Tanks to comfortably massacre his army lacking AoE. Watch for instance Flash vs EffOrt, Ohana, SPL KT Rolster vs CJ Entus. Even if Mvp lost the game because he was too behind from the opening, Mvp vs Stephano, Antiga, Iron Squid II also shows the strength of a critical mass of bio/Tanks against Roaches/Hydralisks. | ||
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llIH
Norway2142 Posts
On February 13 2013 02:58 kollin wrote: You need to move your wrist. Unless you're playing 8+ hours a day with 300+ APM you shouldn't injure yourself, but if you're worried about it there are wrist exercises you can do. Ok. Thanks a lot. | ||
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eeChiama
Argentina96 Posts
 @Crypdos, I never really thought of speeding up the push just by going 2 tank viking, it's actually pretty good thinking. Gonna try this out! @TheDwf; I've watched the games (bought a ticket, really needed!), and it's actually pretty cool to see these openings and how they played out against each other. At one point in the game (taeja v bogus, daybreak) they both literally had the SAME stuff. • In Game 4 of Taeja v Thorzain, DH Winter Ro8, Taeja actually does 15 gas Reactor Expo as a REACTION of having seen Thorzain go for gas first. He goes for in-base CC then he gets an early 2nd gas (earlier than when I would take it, before factory!), a 5:20 bay, goes for 1 viking and gets a Raven with a turrent in each mineral line. Isn't this a bit of an overkill? I'd like to take a later 2nd and 3rd Gas in favour of a faster 3rd CC. Defending the banshees with marines, vikings and turrets seems enough. Ofc, Tank tech as soon as possible. Gonna try this out! Although it seems you can't pressure with Marine/Hellion/Medivac because of this. Or would you do this delayed? (Just posting my thoughts in case anybody is interested) • I was actually talking about what Polt does, the 2-1-1 (1 rax fe). It's of my understanding that Thorzain's is a bio/medivac opening. But pay no mind, I'm actually liking this 15 Gas Reactor Expo a lot! | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
Its a TvZ opening by MKP. he attacks early with +1 and CS. | ||
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FancYCaT
45 Posts
I am wondering how useful upgrading them actually is in TvZ / TvT. For TvZ: I see people getting upgrades, but as far as i know only +2 makes a significant difference, because you can 2-shot infested terran eggs if you want. Which is not necessarily a good decision / big problem since the latest patch. So is getting mech attack worth it if you go bio tank? Tanks are obviously good against banelings which they oneshit and infestors which they 2 shot anyways. And zerg upgrades cant change this. (right?) For TvT: the main purpose is dealing with mass marines and the opponents tanks. I'm not really sure how much of a difference upgrades make here. any knowledge on that? | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On February 13 2013 03:21 TheDwf wrote: One suggestion. If you want to improve (so naturally ignore the following if you don't care), stick to 1-2 builds and refine your play with them. I mean, a few days ago you were asking for agressive builds, now you want safe stuff; don't change every day once you run into difficulties, because there is a myriad of openings in TvT, and if you always change you will never learn how to deal with x, y, z when going a or b because you will already have switched to c, d, then e and maybe f. Bad builds can hold you back but if you always feel you need to change then something else is most likely wrong; I may be mistaken but I doubt whatever issues you face will be solved by trying to find a “magic build”. So much this. I used to have trouble in TvT, too. Then I picked 2 basic openings (1-rax FE into 3-rax Marine/Tank, and gas-first Reactor-Hellion elevator into Mech), and drilled them. In the past two weeks, my TvT winrate jumped to something like 70%, not because I'm a vastly better Starcraft player than before, but I know how my builds respond to any of 5-6 different common threats in TvT, and can therefore adjust my play to compensate on the fly for super greedy 3OC play, Cloak Banshee all-ins, Marine-SCV all-ins, and standard Marine/Tank play, amongst others. | ||
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darkphantom
98 Posts
So much this. I used to have trouble in TvT, too. Then I picked 2 basic openings (1-rax FE into 3-rax Marine/Tank, and gas-first Reactor-Hellion elevator into Mech), and drilled them. In the past two weeks, my TvT winrate jumped to something like 70%, not because I'm a vastly better Starcraft player than before, but I know how my builds respond to any of 5-6 different common threats in TvT, and can therefore adjust my play to compensate on the fly for super greedy 3OC play, Cloak Banshee all-ins, Marine-SCV all-ins, and standard Marine/Tank play, amongst others. can u post the build for the reactor hellion elevator into mech plz ? ^^  | ||
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Jazzman88
Canada2228 Posts
On February 14 2013 04:12 darkphantom wrote: can u post the build for the reactor hellion elevator into mech plz ? ^^ Well, the one I've been working on goes something like this (not taken from any pro that I remember, it's based off of gas-first which I like for pressure and a result of the fact that I kept losing to elevator-based openings into mech, so I figured out some simple transitions/timings): 10 Depot (wall) *rally 11th SCV to Refinery out of CC 12 Refinery 13 Barracks (not wall) *scouting should happen now, because a proxy Marauder or Factory all-in can give you a headache Build SCVs to 17 @100% Rax, Factory (use same SCV) Marine + OC @100% Marine, Reactor on Rax @100% Factory, rally SCV to different part of main, build Starport when affordable (optional on-map proxy, but I prefer more standard) @100% Reactor, lift Rax, land next to Starport, swap Factory onto Reactor, start 2 Hellions (take map control with these, preferably seizing the Tower closest to opponent and rallying further Hellions/Starport there), go up to 4 Hellions @100% Starport, Medivac + TL on Rax Build CC after 3rd and 4th Hellions pop, start another Depot, a gas, and swap the Starport onto the Tech Lab once the Medivac pops and get a Banshee rallied to his side of the map. Take your 4 Hellions, drop them in the main - your goal is to sneak in and kill as many workers as possible while scouting out his build and possible plays. From here it's contextual: if he went 1-rax FE, try and push and poke using Hellions and Banshee and get SCV kills. After the Banshee, you want to get 1 Viking, then drop 2 more Factories when you can, going double TL (easy way is to build another TL on the Rax, lift the Starport and Rax after the Banshee pops, and just build the Facts right on there) Siege Tank/Hellion/Viking. If however you scout a Cloaked Banshee opening, you cancel your Banshee instantly, get a Viking and then a Raven. You should be able to hold with that. If it's a tank all-in, get some Marauders, and go light Marauders with lots of Hellions and Vikings for air control. If he did a Marine/Hellion Elevator play, you just keep building Hellions, and you can easily hold. If you get a Viking soon enough, you can even shut down that drop entirely. Expand to a third and get double Armory after you've established some Siege Tanks. From there, your goal is to deny bio drops, get a third, and arrive at a setup of at least 5 Factories with at least 1 Reactor and 3 Tech Labs, double upgrades, and a Reactor Starport. In the endgame, you need to be ready to lay down like 5 more Starports and transition to air. Ideally this happens (if neither side gains a huge lead) as you're getting +3 Weapons for the Vehicles, because you can afford to skip +3 Armor in order to grab the +1 Ship Weapons and begin adding in Ravens in preparation for the BC transition. | ||
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
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suicideyear
Ivory Coast3016 Posts
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Fencar
United States2694 Posts
On February 14 2013 14:14 suicideyear wrote: what's a good build for a new player? like a month of playing time and not a lot of games. i know macro is important but i feel like i'm just making things that don't do anything. I like this a lot: + Show Spoiler + This is good too: http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL5E0406858CC6D6B1 | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
If it is truly only 11/11, can could someone please post the build order? Thanks guys EDIT: Sorry for asking too much, but can someone also list the build order for hellion/banshee? I have never done it before haha | ||
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kollin
United Kingdom8380 Posts
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On February 14 2013 16:47 kollin wrote: When you say early aggression, how early? Well, something that can pressure quite early...maybe in the 6-8 mark? Around that is fine. The whole point is just i dont want to let the zerg macro so hard and comfortably. | ||
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beardestroyer
3 Posts
How do I improve my macro, and by that I mean when do I add extra production facilities and do I stop making units (even scvs) when I am saving for upgrades/expanding ? Also, in a 1-1-1 TvT soft/hard contain, when do I pull scvs to break out (how soon before he reaches the critical mass of tanks ? how many tanks is the critical mass ?) | ||
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dynwar7
1983 Posts
On February 14 2013 16:53 dynwar7 wrote: Well, something that can pressure quite early...maybe in the 6-8 mark? Around that is fine. The whole point is just i dont want to let the zerg macro so hard and comfortably. Well I think a hellion banshee is common, but is that a good way to apply pressure? That is the current standard no? And what about 2 fact BFH? I think it is risky but it has the potential to do crazy damage. I want to transition to bio /marine tank after 2 fact bfh, does this sound ok? | ||
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darkphantom
98 Posts
On February 14 2013 09:01 Jazzman88 wrote: Well, the one I've been working on goes something like this (not taken from any pro that I remember, it's based off of gas-first which I like for pressure and a result of the fact that I kept losing to elevator-based openings into mech, so I figured out some simple transitions/timings): 10 Depot (wall) *rally 11th SCV to Refinery out of CC 12 Refinery 13 Barracks (not wall) *scouting should happen now, because a proxy Marauder or Factory all-in can give you a headache Build SCVs to 17 @100% Rax, Factory (use same SCV) Marine + OC @100% Marine, Reactor on Rax @100% Factory, rally SCV to different part of main, build Starport when affordable (optional on-map proxy, but I prefer more standard) @100% Reactor, lift Rax, land next to Starport, swap Factory onto Reactor, start 2 Hellions (take map control with these, preferably seizing the Tower closest to opponent and rallying further Hellions/Starport there), go up to 4 Hellions @100% Starport, Medivac + TL on Rax Build CC after 3rd and 4th Hellions pop, start another Depot, a gas, and swap the Starport onto the Tech Lab once the Medivac pops and get a Banshee rallied to his side of the map. Take your 4 Hellions, drop them in the main - your goal is to sneak in and kill as many workers as possible while scouting out his build and possible plays. From here it's contextual: if he went 1-rax FE, try and push and poke using Hellions and Banshee and get SCV kills. After the Banshee, you want to get 1 Viking, then drop 2 more Factories when you can, going double TL (easy way is to build another TL on the Rax, lift the Starport and Rax after the Banshee pops, and just build the Facts right on there) Siege Tank/Hellion/Viking. If however you scout a Cloaked Banshee opening, you cancel your Banshee instantly, get a Viking and then a Raven. You should be able to hold with that. If it's a tank all-in, get some Marauders, and go light Marauders with lots of Hellions and Vikings for air control. If he did a Marine/Hellion Elevator play, you just keep building Hellions, and you can easily hold. If you get a Viking soon enough, you can even shut down that drop entirely. Expand to a third and get double Armory after you've established some Siege Tanks. From there, your goal is to deny bio drops, get a third, and arrive at a setup of at least 5 Factories with at least 1 Reactor and 3 Tech Labs, double upgrades, and a Reactor Starport. In the endgame, you need to be ready to lay down like 5 more Starports and transition to air. Ideally this happens (if neither side gains a huge lead) as you're getting +3 Weapons for the Vehicles, because you can afford to skip +3 Armor in order to grab the +1 Ship Weapons and begin adding in Ravens in preparation for the BC transition. sounds awesome already  Can u post reps plz  ? | ||
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TheDwf
France19747 Posts
On February 13 2013 11:09 eeChiama wrote: Thanks Crypdos and TheDwf for your answers @Crypdos, I never really thought of speeding up the push just by going 2 tank viking, it's actually pretty good thinking. Gonna try this out! It's hardly any better, because your opponent can stall as well (2 Tanks are even less threatening than 3, and against Marines Vikings are just a sight spotter or an overpriced fighter), and you will come across to the 3 Tanks scenario anyway with the previously discussed consequences. • In Game 4 of Taeja v Thorzain, DH Winter Ro8, Taeja actually does 15 gas Reactor Expo as a REACTION of having seen Thorzain go for gas first. He goes for in-base CC then he gets an early 2nd gas (earlier than when I would take it, before factory!), a 5:20 bay, goes for 1 viking and gets a Raven with a turrent in each mineral line. Isn't this a bit of an overkill? He got the Raven after for the following reasons:
Making a Raven is not mandatory if you intend to Marines/Tanks, but it's really recommended when going mech. • I was actually talking about what Polt does, the 2-1-1 (1 rax fe). It's of my understanding that Thorzain's is a bio/medivac opening. But pay no mind, I'm actually liking this 15 Gas Reactor Expo a lot! Ah yes. Later Factory/Starport, so you have to rely on Marines/Turrets first against Cloak Banshees, but you can start bio tech earlier and have more Marines for Marines/Tanks counter-pressure against 1-1-1 expands. On February 14 2013 00:03 FancYCaT wrote: Short question on tanks: I am wondering how useful upgrading them actually is in TvZ / TvT. For TvZ: I see people getting upgrades, but as far as i know only +2 makes a significant difference, because you can 2-shot infested terran eggs if you want. Which is not necessarily a good decision / big problem since the latest patch. So is getting mech attack worth it if you go bio tank? Tanks are obviously good against banelings which they oneshit and infestors which they 2 shot anyways. And zerg upgrades cant change this. (right?) For TvT: the main purpose is dealing with mass marines and the opponents tanks. I'm not really sure how much of a difference upgrades make here. any knowledge on that? In TvZ, the critical upgrade is actually +1 attack so Tanks kill Zerglings in one shot regardless of their armor upgrade at the center of the splash radius. +2 and +3 increase overall damage, so it's useful to get them if you can; +3 is rarely guaranteed though, because the game may already have entered the kind of state in which producing 2 Tanks now is better than having them deal more damage 3'40 later, or you don't have enough resources, or you're investing in air with not enough Tanks for the investment to be worthwhile, etc. It's the same in Marines/Tanks mirrors, +1 and +2 are generally researched, then +3 depends on what's going on because economies are often weakened/destroyed at this stage. Generally, try to get +2 and when it's complete see if the situation allows you to get +3. On February 14 2013 12:50 Fencar wrote: When using Bomber's TvP build when do I start Combat Shields? Shortly after starting Medivacs. On February 14 2013 23:09 dynwar7 wrote: And what about 2 fact BFH? It's bad. Not super convinced but double expand → 2 Factories (with either BFH or Siege + Tanks depending on what is required) → Marines/Tanks is playable though, see the Bomber vs Sniper series, Code S RO32 or Brat_OK vs Goswser, Entombed Valley, Ritmix RSL IV (the latter and Hack vs DRG, Cloud Kingdom, Code S RO32 show the weakness of the build, i. e. the rampant creep). | ||
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