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On February 10 2013 22:02 brunostt wrote:How should I deal with Ling/Bane/Heavy Muta player with good map awareness? I have a practice partner that does this composition with 20+ mutas. Once he gets map control with overlords (which I try to kill with a viking in the early game) and mutas, I feel like no turrets could help me to deny my barracks/factories addons to be destroyed, neither my expansions. My drops (supposed to deny his 4th/5th) are denied, so he can easily transition into a super strong hive push with a great economy. The problem I have is that I get a bit scared to get out of my base. He could destroy my addons while I'm leaving and also prepare with a shitton of ling/banes (given his map awareness and creep spread), which is what usually happens and I end up losing the game. Thank you! 
This is precisely your job to make his Hive transition uneasy; dedicated Mutalisk play means lots of Banelings, and Banelings (on top of the Mutalisk fleet) means delayed Hive, especially if Zerg loses fights because he's then forced to make even more Banelings to defend the next Marines/Tanks wave, which means that even if Hive is complete he's not always able to invest enough gas in Infestors + Broodlords or Ultralisks (hence why the lazy turtle Infestor style became prevalent: easier/faster/safer/stronger Hive) to make a fearsome army.
Your game plan is simple: ideally, defend his agression and maintain your economy → trade favorably → force another Lair army (particularly Banelings) so his Hive transition is delayed/weakened/impossible → trade favorably → rinse/repeat until he's forced to file for bankrupcy because of inefficient trades and drops/pushes eventually destroying his economy. Of course, things are rarely ideal in practice so he will probably get his Hive transition most of the time, but hopefully in a suboptimal position so you have time to adapt. Basically you try to keep him on Lair tech (army-wise) as long as possible.
Defending his agression
- Make 2-3 Bunkers in case he goes for a max 2/2 timing: Zerg max before you and Bunkers/walls are needed to compensate the 30-40 supply disadvantage;
- Leave some troops in your bases: a handful of Marines in exposed areas, possibly one Thor if he makes like 30 Mutalisks; your reinforcements also act as a defensive tool (if he comes near your Barracks you stim your Marines as they appear);
- Obviously Turrets can't defend 20+ Mutalisks on their own, but that's not their goal; they're here to buy time so your stimmed Marines can come and chase Mutalisks. Gradually develop your Turret network as his Mutalisk count increases;
- Depending on the map you can build a Sensor Tower so you can see him from afar; be sure to protect it as it's expensive and Mutalisks can snipe it easily.
Trading favorably
- Make a third Factory: it's really important so you can have many Tanks (ideally 10+) and 1-2 Thors depending on his Mutalisk count.
- Upgrade advantage: against dedicated Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks you get 3/3 before him, because his Hive is too late to start 3/3 as soon as 2/2 completes.
About drops: use them to pull Mutalisks and/or his army out of position when you want to move out; you can even use an empty Medivac if you notice he religiously chases them with Mutalisks.
Remember: the idea with the first big engagement (the one you trigger, not the max 2/2 timing Zerg can do and its possible echos) is not to win rightaway, but to trade favorably in such a way that he's forced to remax and remake mass Banelings because you push or threaten to push. You're also supposed to land your fourth while pushing, though it can be a pain depending on the map and the creep.
Recent games in Code S featuring sucessful Terran play against Zerglings/Banelings/Mutalisks: YoDa vs HyuN, Cloud Kingdom, RO32: + Show Spoiler [Short description of the game] +a bad engagement from HyuN allows YoDa to initiate the “prevent Zerg from successfully completing his Hive transition” cycle; YoDa keeps trading favorably, especially with the upgrade advantage (3/3 vs 2/2), and HyuN ends up losing while being locked on Infestor tech without possibility to get Ultralisks or Broodlords Bomber is ahead from the opening; he loses the first engagement, but it does not matter since Sniper could not tech Hive because of the gas required to make Banelings; Bomber protects his third and his fourth, leaves some troops behind to deal with counters and keeps pounding Sniper, whose economy eventually crumbles
You can also watch Hack vs DRG, Ohana, IPL6 Kor Qualifier; and Jjakji vs Monster, Entombed Valley, FXOpen Invitational #6 RO8. Notice how in both games Terran players took their time to maneuver/clear creep because they knew the Hive was inevitably delayed due to the Mutalisk midgame.
Replays would be needed for more specific advice; if you frequently feel helpless it may be because you enter midgame from behind because of bad/worse macro or suboptimal build orders (assuming you and your practice partner are of roughly same level of course; if he's one league above what you describe is not surprising), in which case it's only natural you get dismantled.
On February 10 2013 22:24 PhantomK wrote:
Hi Im an old BW player but new to SCII. I would just like to hear from more experienced players which units counter which. In BW; zealot>marine vulture>zealot dragoon>vulture siegetank>dragoon etc.
What I've understood so far is that TvP in SCII is more bio based with a few mech units.
SCII(?); zealot>marine hellion>zealot(?) stalker>hellion marauder>stalker marine/marauder>zealot colossus/high templar>marine/marauder viking>colossus.
But where do units like reapers, thors, battlecruisers, sentry, immortal, warp prism, phoenix, void ray and mothership fit in?
Standard TvP is bio, i. e. Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts + Vikings as needed, gradually upgrading towards Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/mass Ghosts + mass Vikings. The only real “mech” unit played in bio is the Viking.
Hellions, Tanks and Thors are not part of the standard bio composition, even if they have some use in certain openings/all-ins. You can play them with mech, but mech is terrible in TvP (I'm not even sure 0.1% of TvP at pro level feature mech) and has nothing to do with Broodwar mech.
Reapers are not used en masse; you can play one Reaper in some rax lab expands, and in lategame you can use a small squad of Speedreapers to harass/deal with Protoss harass, but in the vast majority of the games they're not seen.
Battlecruisers are seldom if ever seen because of production/resources (including time) issues, even though they're a strong option in lategame when you have 5+ bases and a unbreakable defensive position.
You're looking at things in a weird way; there's more than a simple rock/paper/scissors relation between units. Obviously I can tell you that Marauders are awful against Zealots so you need to be Marine-heavy against mass Zealots, Vikings kill Colossi and Ghosts deal with Templars, etc., but there's much more than that.
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Are there any solid and SAFE openers in TvT? Theres so many possible early aggression...proxy marauders, proxy reapers, cloakshee banshee marine hellion elevator etc.
I feel that if I have to attack early to put on early aggression, he already has a banshee in my base, which I can counter using viking but if he has cloakshee I need to burns scans...
I am quite lost in TvT
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On February 11 2013 11:08 dynwar7 wrote:
Are there any solid and SAFE openers in TvT? Theres so many possible early aggression...proxy marauders, proxy reapers, cloakshee banshee marine hellion elevator etc.
I feel that if I have to attack early to put on early aggression, he already has a banshee in my base, which I can counter using viking but if he has cloakshee I need to burns scans...
I am quite lost in TvT
My 'safe' TvT build is just a normal reaper FE. 12 rax 13 gas reaper then FE then CS, rax rax -> double reactor, 6 min ebay, stim right after CS is done.
You have 6 min ebay for cloakshees, marines with CS for banshees, good unit count for anything else. Stim in time for any siege, pull scvs and defend out infront.
That's just me, and my preference though.
SCV scout + reaper scout sniffs out almost any weird play... reaper usually always gets in, or can scout lack of low ground FE. Saves a scan most times, and you can stim cs +1 timing a lot of builds and just brute down their bunker and force an scv pull.
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On February 11 2013 08:48 TheDwf wrote:
Show nested quote +On February 10 2013 22:24 PhantomK wrote:
Hi Im an old BW player but new to SCII. I would just like to hear from more experienced players which units counter which. In BW; zealot>marine vulture>zealot dragoon>vulture siegetank>dragoon etc.
What I've understood so far is that TvP in SCII is more bio based with a few mech units.
SCII(?); zealot>marine hellion>zealot(?) stalker>hellion marauder>stalker marine/marauder>zealot colossus/high templar>marine/marauder viking>colossus.
But where do units like reapers, thors, battlecruisers, sentry, immortal, warp prism, phoenix, void ray and mothership fit in? Standard TvP is bio, i. e. Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/Ghosts + Vikings as needed, gradually upgrading towards Marines/Marauders/Medivacs/mass Ghosts + mass Vikings. The only real “mech” unit played in bio is the Viking. Hellions, Tanks and Thors are not part of the standard bio composition, even if they have some use in certain openings/all-ins. You can play them with mech, but mech is terrible in TvP (I'm not even sure 0.1% of TvP at pro level feature mech) and has nothing to do with Broodwar mech. Reapers are not used en masse; you can play one Reaper in some rax lab expands, and in lategame you can use a small squad of Speedreapers to harass/deal with Protoss harass, but in the vast majority of the games they're not seen. Battlecruisers are seldom if ever seen because of production/resources (including time) issues, even though they're a strong option in lategame when you have 5+ bases and a unbreakable defensive position. You're looking at things in a weird way; there's more than a simple rock/paper/scissors relation between units. Obviously I can tell you that Marauders are awful against Zealots so you need to be Marine-heavy against mass Zealots, Vikings kill Colossi and Ghosts deal with Templars, etc., but there's much more than that.
Thanks for answer and I understand its not a rock paper scissor game I just wanted to know in general which units kinda counters which since I haven't played even my tenth game of SCII yet and I'm a bit lazy figured I would ask here. Good thread thx again.
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Does anyone have the build order for cloakshee expand in TvT? I am confused when to get my 2nd CC, 2nd gas (since I m going cloak), what to do with rax and fact while making banshee, etc.
Thanks in advance
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Hey there, have some questions. TvT-wise.
I have been doing the good ol' Rax CC into 1-1-1, with a 3 tank 1 medivac push at around 9 mins (cutting corners), which I'm able to do if the other guy also fast expanded.
Had mixed results, against the classic cc into 3 rax opening I can usually do some damage (my army always dies anyway, cant run tanks from stimmed marines), but then my stim is really delayed and they seize complete map control, soft contain, take their third and from there just outmacro.
I'm looking for something a little more aggresive. or less "macro up in your base" so:
☺ Has anybody fooled around with the 15 gas reactor expand ? Taeja and Bomber seemed fond of it (replays from Lonestar Clash 2 and DH Winter). I have done some AI and I think that it would be easy to fend off the classic marine hellion, but can't be sure against any kind of gas first build. Any experience?
Bomber, against another fast expo, did a more aggresive style of getting the hellions reactor'd and doing some serious pressure. Is this pressure something worth doing? Marine/Hellion/Medivac. He then was going into mech, but the game just ended there.
If, however, I'm not able to scout or run into a wall, should I simply just cc in base, scan 6:30min and just keep pumping marines in case of banshee until the viking comes out?
What would be the timing of the second gas (or more) in both cases (agressive and defensive) ? 2x Bay, 3rd CC, or more Rax afterwards?
☺ Also, what's the difference between a gas first cloakshee expand, and 13 gas version? Is there any reason for which anybody would want to do the 13gas? I know it's a ~20 sec difference in timing.
☺ Is Rax CC Rax recommended?
Thanks to the blue posters for such a great work in here, it has been very helpful in my starcraft endeavours :D
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On February 08 2013 01:34 govie wrote:Show nested quote +On February 07 2013 15:39 geokilla wrote:Ok I just played the most boring TvT ever... I was up the whole game, but my opponent decided to get all defensive on me and I couldn't crack it. I tried to starve him out but instead, he starved me out. I tried going to BCs, but BCs were useless because they're so slow and are so expensive. I tried to drops too, but like I said, his defense was too good. What the hell do I do in a situation like this? http://drop.sc/302813 I watched it. But, first ill paradigmshift ur view on this game and ur play, then i'll say what was good, what could have gone better and why u lost. The paradigmshift1. I agree, it was boring from your end because u did nothing after the first push, except for taking his watchtower! 2. He wasn't defensive, u were. U never really had a plan of attack except for taking the watchtower. His plan was, attack expansions, kill workers, dont engage sieged tanks. If your out of position, that sounds pretty ok to me 3. U didnt try drops like u said, u tried 1 drop with 1 full medivac into 1 turret. 4. Why BC? i just don't see why u needed bc's 5. His defense was not good, ur descissionmaking was off. What u did good1. U were outmacroing him. Better upgrades, more workers, more supply. Really good. 2. U took his watchtower and allmost had a good contain. What could be done better1. When u pushed the first time at 14 minutes, that was a bad engagement. U push into a choke with siegetanks on highground behind the choke. On this map it's easier to go around to the 3rd were he has less highground advantage and less choke. 2nd, it gives u the info if he expanded, if so kill the expo and do economic damage. If u still want to engage his natureal, kill the rocks first! 2. Two sensortowers or/and some vikings/turrets would have given u possibility to certainly not loose, or u can call it an autowin. If u have that kind of a contain, the only thing he can do, to get a costefficient engagement with his marine/tank, is bypassing that static tankarmy at the watchtower. Because u didnt have mapawareness, u lost expo's and workers and finally the game. The picture below shows where u could have builded the 2 sensortowers for some mapawareness. The vikings or some turrets next to his main would have denied him any drops. 3. When u loose alot of workers, rebuild them. ![[image loading]](http://s4.postimage.org/80staufgt/tankline_2.jpg) General1. U outmacro-ed ur opponent 2. Next time scout better how many expo's he has at any given time and kill them if ur army is close; 3/ Give yourself mapawareness. When u go for a marinetank contain, it becomes a positional fight. Mapawareness for runbyes and drops are crucial because u have sieged tanks somewhere else. U can give yourself mapawareness with vikings, troops, senortowers or turrets, how doesnt really matter. By containing him ur forcing him to drop or do runbyes. The only thing that will loose u the game from this point forward is not defending against this when he sticks to marinetank. And if he does attack ur sieged army at the watchtower u will have atleast a costefficient engagement! thats never a bad thing
Well how else am I supposed to play it? His turrets defended his bases. If I attacked head on like a game I played today, I lose my units super quickly. If I tried to drop on him, I lose my units quickly. If I moved my army, to another location, he can just scan and roll in and cut my reinforcements.
Aren't BCs the end game unit for Terrans, if it gets drawn out like that? Here's a game I played today and I tried to take your advice on how to approach it if I get into a stalemate like the previous game. http://drop.sc/304100
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On February 11 2013 16:32 eeChiama wrote:
Hey there, have some questions. TvT-wise.
I have been doing the good ol' Rax CC into 1-1-1, with a 3 tank 1 medivac push at around 9 mins (cutting corners), which I'm able to do if the other guy also fast expanded.
Had mixed results, against the classic cc into 3 rax opening I can usually do some damage (my army always dies anyway, cant run tanks from stimmed marines), but then my stim is really delayed and they seize complete map control, soft contain, take their third and from there just outmacro.
The push you do at 9minutes needs to be earlier, try to go for a 2 tankpush while getting a viking instead of medivac. If you attack at 9minutes against someone going for 2base medivac, you will get your ass handed to you. At the 2tank timing you should have the upper hand though. That push is especially good if you defend a 1base build and get ahead. I dont see why you wouldnt attack vs anything other than 1rax FE?
The stim can be a huge deal. You will often find yourself with no stim and tanks vs stim/cs and medivacs but no tanks. You obviously cant attack for a while, but he cant attack you either. Get good army positions on your 2base (1tank sieged in your main, marines to cover drops etc) and play greedy. I recommend double ebay, and a quick third (~8min).
Another thing you can do is what polt does and go 2-1-1, getting a techlab and reactor rax.
I'm looking for something a little more aggresive. or less "macro up in your base" so:
Try 1base builds, the 1rax FE into 1-1-1 isnt per se more agressive than 1rax into 3rax , as it gets later stim as mentioned.
Also, what's the difference between a gas first cloakshee expand, and 13 gas version? Is there any reason for which anybody would want to do the 13gas? I know it's a ~20 sec difference in timing.
With 13 gas you can afford to scout, and you can wall off earlier. You are also less susceptible to things like proxy marauder or 11/11
hope this helped
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Is it possible to change this default behaviour:
Draw a box around your army, includes tanks ghosts and marine maurauder medivac.
By default the unit with control is the ghost, not sure why - but I want it to be the marine / maurader combo and then i tab through to get to ghosts....can you set it up to behave like this?
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On February 12 2013 23:30 renegadeandy wrote:
Is it possible to change this default behaviour:
Draw a box around your army, includes tanks ghosts and marine maurauder medivac.
By default the unit with control is the ghost, not sure why - but I want it to be the marine / maurader combo and then i tab through to get to ghosts....can you set it up to behave like this?
Nope, you can't change the priority. You have to put your ghosts on a separate hotkey if you don't want to tab.
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So if i had the same exact setup, except had ghosts on hotkey '5' - when i drag select all my units the marines would have priority!?
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On February 12 2013 23:51 renegadeandy wrote:
So if i had the same exact setup, except had ghosts on hotkey '5' - when i drag select all my units the marines would have priority!?
No. But you'd be able to access ghost spells on hotkey 5. Priority from drag selecting can't be changed.
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How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines.
Just bad technique from me?
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On February 13 2013 01:14 llIH wrote:
How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines.
I assigned the 0 to ² on my keyboard. So right now i have CC on ², armies groups on 1/2/3/4, barracks/factories/starport on 5, bay on 6.
I have a little question. I just got to master and i don't really know how to approach tvz when z goes roach/hydras style. I open 1rax FE into 2 gas then facto starport and go for the usual hellion/banshee harass. Even if i manage to kill a good dozen of drones i sometimes get completely ownd in the mid game eventhough i feel like i am ahead?
This is exactly what happened there: http://drop.sc/304217
I don't exactly know what to do. Anyone? :D
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On February 13 2013 01:27 HugzForL wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:14 llIH wrote:
How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines. I assigned the 0 to ² on my keyboard. So right now i have CC on ², armies groups on 1/2/3/4, barracks/factories/starport on 5, bay on 6.
What do you mean by " ² " ?
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On February 13 2013 01:14 llIH wrote:
How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines.
Just bad technique from me?
What position does your hand have on the keyboard? You should be able to reach the 7 ket fairly easily with your middle 3 fingers resting on 1 2 and 3 respectively.
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I rest on 123. But it feels a little too far? I don't know. Maybe I am just very picky. my index finger reach as far as the middle part of the 5 key , with the tip of the finger.
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Do you move your wrist when you move your hand around the keyboard?
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On February 13 2013 01:14 llIH wrote:
How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines.
Just bad technique from me?
i got F2 for Bases, F3 for Production F4 for upgrades
` is for scout or misc. ( dropship on the way to his base etc )
space is for my whole army
1/2/3/4: for army micro ( 1 MMM 2 ghosts 3 Tanks 4 Air )
hope it helps ^^
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On February 13 2013 01:32 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 13 2013 01:27 HugzForL wrote:On February 13 2013 01:14 llIH wrote:
How do you use your hotkeys? What do the pros do? Do they use thumb buttons?
I might be changing mouse that has 2 thumb buttons and thought perhaps it would be smart to assign the 2 buttons for main-base + production/queens? (I play random)
I am just asking you here because it seems a lot of you know what you are talking about. I am having some difficulties reaching for my #5 key to click on CC, then A for marines. I assigned the 0 to ² on my keyboard. So right now i have CC on ², armies groups on 1/2/3/4, barracks/factories/starport on 5, bay on 6. What do you mean by " ² " ?
i've been wondering the same thing ^^ maybe it's ` ( left of 1 ) - makes most sense to me
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EPT
