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On February 09 2013 10:07 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Is the build that Lucifron used in the DICE invitational vs. Scarlett viable on ladder or is it too greedy and unsafe?
I'm talking about his CC first --->1 rax-------->3rd CC (after double orbital)------>double gas and reactored hellions, double ups, etc.
you can do it but you can straight up lose to some things if you don't have fast reaction
there are plenty of safer ways to do it though
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On February 09 2013 14:19 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 10:07 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Is the build that Lucifron used in the DICE invitational vs. Scarlett viable on ladder or is it too greedy and unsafe?
I'm talking about his CC first --->1 rax-------->3rd CC (after double orbital)------>double gas and reactored hellions, double ups, etc. you can do it but you can straight up lose to some things if you don't have fast reaction there are plenty of safer ways to do it though
Jesus fucking christ I can never imagine myself doing anything that risky on KR server when even the most standard 1 rax FE brings on a 5 gate all in 90% of the time
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On February 09 2013 14:19 Vari wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 10:07 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Is the build that Lucifron used in the DICE invitational vs. Scarlett viable on ladder or is it too greedy and unsafe?
I'm talking about his CC first --->1 rax-------->3rd CC (after double orbital)------>double gas and reactored hellions, double ups, etc. you can do it but you can straight up lose to some things if you don't have fast reaction there are plenty of safer ways to do it though
What plays can zerg make to punish this?
(I'm thinking early speedling build most likely)
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On February 09 2013 15:04 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 14:19 Vari wrote:On February 09 2013 10:07 PinheadXXXXXX wrote:
Is the build that Lucifron used in the DICE invitational vs. Scarlett viable on ladder or is it too greedy and unsafe?
I'm talking about his CC first --->1 rax-------->3rd CC (after double orbital)------>double gas and reactored hellions, double ups, etc. you can do it but you can straight up lose to some things if you don't have fast reaction there are plenty of safer ways to do it though What plays can zerg make to punish this? (I'm thinking early speedling build most likely)
This is a build demuslim uses a lot. Im starting to use it myself, and ive lost a few times to ling bane busts. Early roaches hurt a lot too, since you dont have a banshee on the way and have to rely on bunker + repair.
edit: terran has pushing potential around 10-11 (when the medivacs pop) so make sure you have a banes nest in time for that (or something else up your sleeve that can deal with 16+ marines, 6 hellions and 2 medivacs.
On February 09 2013 14:51 padfoota wrote:
Jesus fucking christ I can never imagine myself doing anything that risky on KR server when even the most standard 1 rax FE brings on a 5 gate all in 90% of the time
Its a tvz build. I wouldnt do that vs protoss because of the plethora of allins on 2 base that can punish fast three CC AND double ebay.
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Im tired of TvZ.
I want a build that can apply early aggression. I have chosen marauder/hellion, but it seems they always put spines, so my BO is countered.
I also want to know, do I need to use tanks? I have seen occasions where tanks just get wrekced by the imba zerglings. Most of the time tanks shoot 2 or so times before dying. Is it worth it? Is pure bio viable?
If you are a high level player, and are pretty good at TvZ, please share your secrets
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On February 09 2013 17:35 dynwar7 wrote:
Im tired of TvZ.
I want a build that can apply early aggression. I have chosen marauder/hellion, but it seems they always put spines, so my BO is countered.
I also want to know, do I need to use tanks? I have seen occasions where tanks just get wrekced by the imba zerglings. Most of the time tanks shoot 2 or so times before dying. Is it worth it? Is pure bio viable?
If you are a high level player, and are pretty good at TvZ, please share your secrets
The best way to apply early aggression against Zerg is to do hellion, banshee. Hellions are fast and mobile and banshees are flying units, which allows you to quickly change the location for the attack. The standard hellion banshee version only get´s 6 hellions and 1 banshee for map control and defense and then transitions into either mech or marine-tank-medivac. However you can build more hellions and banshees and research cloak to put more pressure on your opponent. However once he builds mutalisks your agression stops for a while. Alternative you can try to do 2 rax on 2 player maps.
In todays metagame a pre hive timing between 14 and 15 minutes with +2/+2 bio attack and +1 tank attack against the fourth base of the zerg is really strong and can do a lot of damage. Earlier pushes aren´t effective that well anymore.
Alternative you can do a marine-hellion-medviac timing against the 3rd base of the Zerg. However i don´t remeber a professional game, where it worked well.
Tanks are a really important part of tvz, since they allow you to push out on the map and hold positions. Since scouting the Zerg is really hard, you always need to be present on the map. In high numbers (5-6) tanks are really good against zerglings/banelings and infestors. However you need to spread them out and don´t push on creep, since if you don´t do this the Zerg units are on top of your tanks in a few seconds. If you stay off creep and spread your tanks, you can get 1 or 2 more shots for a more cost effective battles.
Whether pure bio is viable i can´t really tell. I personally find it´s just a style that abuses the lack of multitasking from Zergs. If Zergs are on top of things, trading cost effective becomes a pain. You need to do a hell lot of multitasking and you need to be able to spread well against banelings. I personally feel it´s not a good option to play tvz, since it´s way easier to do marine-tank-medivac.
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Thanks sianos for that.
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
2. You said not to fight on creep. Ok, but that means I have to clear creep, and it takes....ages for creep to dissolve right? And all that time waiting for the creep to dissolve, the zerg could've done something to help defend the attack, and many more. Basically time is very precious, and is it worth it to wait for creep to dissolve just so that I dont have to fight on creep?
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1. Yes it is, by utilising drops. Unless you're Marineking and can be constantly aggressive with your bio ball without just dying (you probably can't), drops are the best way to harass the zerg.
2. When you kill off the creep tumour, and I might be wrong about this, but I think the vision and speed effects are gone, even if the creep itself hasn't. And yes it is worth it, you never ever ever want to fight on creep unless you have a very big advantage over the zerg army. Your hellions and banshees should be active throughout the game, trying to clear out the creep in preparation for your push.
Honestly, the 14 min push isn't very good anymore. Zergs can beat it fairly easily, and in its place terran have no answer.
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On February 09 2013 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
This is partially an answer, partially a question to higher level players as I'm not very good.
I feel like with tanks, you can't be aggressive with them until you have a large number (2-3 is not going to cut it). If you're trying to secure a position out on the map, then having just 2-3 tanks isn't going to do a whole lot, since you can be easily flanked or surrounded (you can't cover a whole lot of area with the tanks, and they can't protect each other), and you don't have enough for a contain. And in a straight up fight, your army won't be as strong as if you'd focused those resources into bio, medivacs, and upgrades. The zerg can easily crush your push with proper positioning, or just ignore the tanks because they pose less of a threat than if you'd gone straight bio.
So I guess this is why the 3 tank pushes which were so common at one point fell out of fashion. Since tanks are such a big early investment, they severely weaken your aggressive potential until you get a decent number (like 6+, which will happen at your 14 minute 2/2/1 push). So if you're going marine tank medivac, and feel safe enough to play aggessively in the midgame, perhaps you should delay tanks, and then start churning them out of 2-3 factories once you have 2/2 going and your 5th and 6th gasses are up and running?
Of course, if you feel like zerg is going for something more aggressive like a 1/1 speed roach (+ maybe hydras) timing, or a ling/bane/muta bust off two bases, then you'll probably want to rush tanks after your hellion banshee...
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On February 09 2013 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:
Thanks sianos for that.
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
2. You said not to fight on creep. Ok, but that means I have to clear creep, and it takes....ages for creep to dissolve right? And all that time waiting for the creep to dissolve, the zerg could've done something to help defend the attack, and many more. Basically time is very precious, and is it worth it to wait for creep to dissolve just so that I don't have to fight on creep?
It´s a bit contradictory, but tanks allow you to be aggressive on the map even if they are immobile, since they counter the Zerg AOE like banelings and infestors. Without tanks, it´s basically impossible to be out on the map doing a big attack, since you would just get surrounded and slathered by the AOE units. That´s the reason, why bio is only an option if you do multi pronged attacks and drops to split his army up. But you really need a high number of tanks like 5-6 to be able to trade cost efficient.
Against creep you have some options to deny it. At first you can do this with hellion banshee. However if the Zerg player is good, it´s not possible to deny creep in the early game. That´s the reason, why the timing against the 4th base was invented, since the creep spread isn´t that far , that you can´t reach the 4th base. Also during your push you use scans to see forward, to be able to see the opponent´s army in time and you also use the scans to clear the creep, to make the next attack stronger. Even if your push get´s cleaned up. If you could clear a lot of creep, it was still worth it and you can do big damage with your next push. Simultaneous you can do medivac drops on the other side of the map to kill creep, while you are pushing. Dropping an expansion to distract the zergs attention and then pushing forward and kill creep or attack an expansion of the zerg, which is off creep are basic tactics used in tvz from the really good players like taeja or mkp. You have to get away from the mindset of attacking the Zergs main and destroying it. Your attacking goals in tvz are creep and forward expansions. While denying the vision of the Zerg, your attacks get more powerful and allow you to take out expansion. In the meantime, you are setting up your own additional bases and you slowly out macro the Zerg until he has no more income. That´s how you are supposed to play tvz.
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On February 09 2013 21:02 K.Roy wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
This is partially an answer, partially a question to higher level players as I'm not very good. I feel like with tanks, you can't be aggressive with them until you have a large number (2-3 is not going to cut it). If you're trying to secure a position out on the map, then having just 2-3 tanks isn't going to do a whole lot, since you can be easily flanked or surrounded (you can't cover a whole lot of area with the tanks, and they can't protect each other), and you don't have enough for a contain. And in a straight up fight, your army won't be as strong as if you'd focused those resources into bio, medivacs, and upgrades. The zerg can easily crush your push with proper positioning, or just ignore the tanks because they pose less of a threat than if you'd gone straight bio. So I guess this is why the 3 tank pushes which were so common at one point fell out of fashion. Since tanks are such a big early investment, they severely weaken your aggressive potential until you get a decent number (like 6+, which will happen at your 14 minute 2/2/1 push). So if you're going marine tank medivac, and feel safe enough to play aggessively in the midgame, perhaps you should delay tanks, and then start churning them out of 2-3 factories once you have 2/2 going and your 5th and 6th gasses are up and running? Of course, if you feel like zerg is going for something more aggressive like a 1/1 speed roach (+ maybe hydras) timing, or a ling/bane/muta bust off two bases, then you'll probably want to rush tanks after your hellion banshee...
It is possible to do a 2-base tank push like mvp did a couple of gsls back. It is basically a 1RaxFE into 3 rax + factory. Attack with 2 or3. Leave base when siege tech is half way. I don't recall the build order correctly though. And I know it requires good decision and micro. Im not sure if reactors where placed before researching the siege tech. But it goes with 3rax with 2reactor 1tl + factory 1tl.
It might also be bad with current metagame. haven't seen it in a long time.
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when using bomber's 1 rax fe into 3 rax what time should my attack start, what time do i add extra 2 rax and time for starting 3rd
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On February 09 2013 21:23 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:02 K.Roy wrote:On February 09 2013 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
This is partially an answer, partially a question to higher level players as I'm not very good. I feel like with tanks, you can't be aggressive with them until you have a large number (2-3 is not going to cut it). If you're trying to secure a position out on the map, then having just 2-3 tanks isn't going to do a whole lot, since you can be easily flanked or surrounded (you can't cover a whole lot of area with the tanks, and they can't protect each other), and you don't have enough for a contain. And in a straight up fight, your army won't be as strong as if you'd focused those resources into bio, medivacs, and upgrades. The zerg can easily crush your push with proper positioning, or just ignore the tanks because they pose less of a threat than if you'd gone straight bio. So I guess this is why the 3 tank pushes which were so common at one point fell out of fashion. Since tanks are such a big early investment, they severely weaken your aggressive potential until you get a decent number (like 6+, which will happen at your 14 minute 2/2/1 push). So if you're going marine tank medivac, and feel safe enough to play aggessively in the midgame, perhaps you should delay tanks, and then start churning them out of 2-3 factories once you have 2/2 going and your 5th and 6th gasses are up and running? Of course, if you feel like zerg is going for something more aggressive like a 1/1 speed roach (+ maybe hydras) timing, or a ling/bane/muta bust off two bases, then you'll probably want to rush tanks after your hellion banshee... It is possible to do a 2-base tank push like mvp did a couple of gsls back. It is basically a 1RaxFE into 3 rax + factory. Attack with 2 or3. Leave base when siege tech is half way. I don't recall the build order correctly though. And I know it requires good decision and micro. Im not sure if reactors where placed before researching the siege tech. But it goes with 3rax with 2reactor 1tl + factory 1tl. It might also be bad with current metagame. haven't seen it in a long time.
You can't do that anymore, because Zergs can take much faster thirds due to buffed queens.
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On February 09 2013 21:33 kollin wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 21:23 llIH wrote:On February 09 2013 21:02 K.Roy wrote:On February 09 2013 19:59 dynwar7 wrote:
1. Is it possible to play aggressively with tanks? Dont they hold you back since they are so immobile?
This is partially an answer, partially a question to higher level players as I'm not very good. I feel like with tanks, you can't be aggressive with them until you have a large number (2-3 is not going to cut it). If you're trying to secure a position out on the map, then having just 2-3 tanks isn't going to do a whole lot, since you can be easily flanked or surrounded (you can't cover a whole lot of area with the tanks, and they can't protect each other), and you don't have enough for a contain. And in a straight up fight, your army won't be as strong as if you'd focused those resources into bio, medivacs, and upgrades. The zerg can easily crush your push with proper positioning, or just ignore the tanks because they pose less of a threat than if you'd gone straight bio. So I guess this is why the 3 tank pushes which were so common at one point fell out of fashion. Since tanks are such a big early investment, they severely weaken your aggressive potential until you get a decent number (like 6+, which will happen at your 14 minute 2/2/1 push). So if you're going marine tank medivac, and feel safe enough to play aggessively in the midgame, perhaps you should delay tanks, and then start churning them out of 2-3 factories once you have 2/2 going and your 5th and 6th gasses are up and running? Of course, if you feel like zerg is going for something more aggressive like a 1/1 speed roach (+ maybe hydras) timing, or a ling/bane/muta bust off two bases, then you'll probably want to rush tanks after your hellion banshee... It is possible to do a 2-base tank push like mvp did a couple of gsls back. It is basically a 1RaxFE into 3 rax + factory. Attack with 2 or3. Leave base when siege tech is half way. I don't recall the build order correctly though. And I know it requires good decision and micro. Im not sure if reactors where placed before researching the siege tech. But it goes with 3rax with 2reactor 1tl + factory 1tl. It might also be bad with current metagame. haven't seen it in a long time. You can't do that anymore, because Zergs can take much faster thirds due to buffed queens.
What do you mean? I don't understand entirely. There must be something I forgot or am not seeing. I'm not assuming you mean the queens can kill siege tanks + marines.
Queens rape hellions now - at least more than before.
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On February 09 2013 23:06 llIH wrote:
What do you mean? I don't understand entirely. There must be something I forgot or am not seeing. I'm not assuming you mean the queens can kill siege tanks + marines.
Queens rape hellions now - at least more than before.
Because of the Queen buff, the creep can be spreaded farther than before. In addition Zergs can take a faster 3rd base, which gives him additional Larva. So in the end the Zerg now not only has the speed boost, because of creep, he can even make a larger army to crush your 10 minute tank pushes. The 10 minute tank pushes could already be crushed before, but now they have 2 additional advantages, which makes this timing impossible.
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On February 09 2013 23:19 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:06 llIH wrote:
What do you mean? I don't understand entirely. There must be something I forgot or am not seeing. I'm not assuming you mean the queens can kill siege tanks + marines.
Queens rape hellions now - at least more than before.
Because of the Queen buff, the creep can be spreaded farther than before. In addition Zergs can take a faster 3rd base, which gives him additional Larva. So in the end the Zerg now not only has the speed boost, because of creep, he can even make a larger army to crush your 10 minute tank pushes. The 10 minute tank pushes could already be crushed before, but now they have 2 additional advantages, which makes this timing impossible.
Yes - makes sense. I also think that is the reason. It looked like it meant that the range entirely was the reason. Creep + additional larva i totally agree on. So in other words it is a meta game shift because of the Queen buff?
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On February 09 2013 23:25 llIH wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:19 Sianos wrote:On February 09 2013 23:06 llIH wrote:
What do you mean? I don't understand entirely. There must be something I forgot or am not seeing. I'm not assuming you mean the queens can kill siege tanks + marines.
Queens rape hellions now - at least more than before.
Because of the Queen buff, the creep can be spreaded farther than before. In addition Zergs can take a faster 3rd base, which gives him additional Larva. So in the end the Zerg now not only has the speed boost, because of creep, he can even make a larger army to crush your 10 minute tank pushes. The 10 minute tank pushes could already be crushed before, but now they have 2 additional advantages, which makes this timing impossible. Yes - makes sense. I also think that is the reason. It looked like it meant that the range entirely was the reason. Creep + additional larva i totally agree on. So in other words it is a meta game shift because of the Queen buff?
Yes, and this has been the case since March of last year.
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Thanks for all the answers. However for question 2, only kollin answered. Any more opinions regarding question 2? I will just copy paste here.
+ Show Spoiler +You said not to fight on creep. Ok, but that means I have to clear creep, and it takes....ages for creep to dissolve right? And all that time waiting for the creep to dissolve, the zerg could've done something to help defend the attack, and many more. Basically time is very precious, and is it worth it to wait for creep to dissolve just so that I dont have to fight on creep?
Kollin said that if I kill the tumor, the vision is gone, which I know, and the speed boost to zerg is also gone, which I didnt know about. Can anyone confirm this?
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On February 09 2013 23:42 dynwar7 wrote:Thanks for all the answers. However for question 2, only kollin answered. Any more opinions regarding question 2? I will just copy paste here. + Show Spoiler +You said not to fight on creep. Ok, but that means I have to clear creep, and it takes....ages for creep to dissolve right? And all that time waiting for the creep to dissolve, the zerg could've done something to help defend the attack, and many more. Basically time is very precious, and is it worth it to wait for creep to dissolve just so that I dont have to fight on creep? Kollin said that if I kill the tumor, the vision is gone, which I know, and the speed boost to zerg is also gone, which I didnt know about. Can anyone confirm this?
If there is no creep, there is no speed boost. However i don´t know whether the creep needs an active creep tumor to be able to boost. I could think of that as long there is creep, the speedboost still exists. Haven´t tested it by myself, but it doesn´t make much of a difference in how you play tvz as i said above.
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On February 10 2013 00:03 Sianos wrote:Show nested quote +On February 09 2013 23:42 dynwar7 wrote:Thanks for all the answers. However for question 2, only kollin answered. Any more opinions regarding question 2? I will just copy paste here. + Show Spoiler +You said not to fight on creep. Ok, but that means I have to clear creep, and it takes....ages for creep to dissolve right? And all that time waiting for the creep to dissolve, the zerg could've done something to help defend the attack, and many more. Basically time is very precious, and is it worth it to wait for creep to dissolve just so that I dont have to fight on creep? Kollin said that if I kill the tumor, the vision is gone, which I know, and the speed boost to zerg is also gone, which I didnt know about. Can anyone confirm this? If there is no creep, there is no speed boost. However i don´t know whether the creep needs an active creep tumor to be able to boost. I could think of that as long there is creep, the speedboost still exists. Haven´t tested it by myself, but it doesn´t make much of a difference in how you play tvz as i said above.
I think it does, because if I have to wait for the actual creep to disappear, then it would take ages.....
However, if the creep itself does not give speed boost, then its all good.
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EPT
