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All racist comments will result in a ban. Think well before posting. |
On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc. At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved. I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
Americans would never leave America, though. I'm positive they'd all kill eachother (if they thought it was in their/the countries best interest) before they would be packing up and leaving.
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On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote:
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
Phone was stolen by gipsy taxi driver 3 years ago.
Used to be bullied at school by gipsy gangs who while not attending school came about to take money from the kids actually going to school.
7 years ago i saw a grown middle aged gypsy woman taking a shit on the sidewalk in the center plaza of the city.
8 years ago a car with german number plates stopped by my house and the 3 gypsies inside wanted to sell cooking pots (very aggressively) and other products. Now i'f im gonna say they stole those products from Germany and even though thats discrimination because i dont have any proof, its still true.
In my entire life i have only met 2 hard working gypsies who appeared to want to be part of society. Thats it. And neither of them complained about not being able to work if they wanted to or having a hard time finding a job because of being a gypsy.
I also have to be quite honest. Ever since we joined the EU there are virtually no more beggars on our city streets here in north-west Romania.
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On September 29 2011 20:47 tree.hugger wrote:
As an American who is proud of my nation's long internal struggle against racism and intolerance, and one who is deeply skeptical of cultural explanations for people's behavior, I have the following questions.
How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
You are mixing up explaining a behavior with race and explaining behavior with culture. We aren't saying that all people that belong to the Roma ethnicity are thieves and so on, we're saying that the Roma people who practice gypsy culture are folowing bad examples and are a problem. The same can be said about the gangbanger culture, don't you hate people who commit crimes, kill people, steal and peddle drugs? Just because gangbangers are predominantly black (gangstas, not talking about yakuza etc, don't accuse me of saying only black people commit crimes) doesn't mean that all black people follow the gangbanger culture, in fact that percentage is so low it doesn't even matter and probably isn't any higher or lower that the criminal rate for white people or people of other ethnicity. I don't care what skin color you have, what shape eyes you have, if you're a cool dude I'll be friends with anyone, same goes if you steal from me, I want you to face the legal consequences, no more no less. Like plenty of people have pointed out, gypsy culture is based on living off ill-gotten gains, not educating their children and abusing them as workforce and/or welfare checks. Roma people who do honest work to live and send their kids to school aren't the problem, they are the solution, sadly, these kind of people are ostracized by the gypsy community and sometimes even face violence as retribution for their "betrayal" of their culture.
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How many people in this thread have actually been directly stolen from by a Romani person? What was stolen? When? How did you know they were Romani?
And I'm also curious, how many Romani people do you know personally?
Me and my brothers 2 bikes were stolen from our shed at our grans, when we asked the police to check the gypo camp up from my grans all that was left was 1 frame from one of the bikes, it had been stripped basically. Fuck all happened, the police didn't do shit.
Last month, 10 years after it happened, the gypo's were finally told to get the fuck off the land( a clearing under a road bridge, about the size of a football pitch), the mess they left behind was unreal.
Seriously most gypsies I've encountered are fucking scum. I still remember a roundabout near Edinburgh (near the Gyle), the gypsies camped on the fucking thing, they got told to move, so moved 10 meters to the side of the road in a clearing. I can't remember how long it took the police to move them, but plenty of motorists complained of rubbish blowing onto the road from the camp.
edit; Yes I realise not all travelers are like this, but the ones I've encountered are.
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On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc. At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved. I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land.
I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
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On September 29 2011 21:17 ddod wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Around 800 000 young Bulgarians have emigrated to other countries since 1990. The current population of Bulgaria is around 6.5mil people. You were saying?
Good for them, I hope. 
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btw i forgot the funniest one.
we were 14 standing in a bus station with my friend when one gypsy walkted to us, alerting us he heard other bystandards alerting the police we selling marijuana. we obv didnt even know whats happenning than 10 gypsys showed up immediately. half of them was sure we selling drugs in the station (it was crowded as fuck btw), and told they willing to testify as a witness. than the one guy told me he can convince the police to go away, but he will need the other gypsys of the crowd to testify aswell and he needs to pay money for them. he demanded 20$. we didnt had money only 2 bus tickets, so he gave me his numbers, to bring the money next day.
[in the meantime other bystandards alerted the police for real about the trouble, who arrived pretty fast, checked everyones IDs, and said: good day gentleman and left =)]
i had to go trought that station on a daily basis, so was pretty worried what will happen if i dont call him. an older friend adviced to call him and tell i tried to ask money from my mother but shes very ill, and had to spend a lot on medicine, but we have 10$ remained i can bring it to him... (mother culture is very strong with gypsys). so i did, and he told its ok, forget about it.
i already forget about it but few months ago when i came out from the store, 6 gypsys between the age of 20-30 standing around me. i recognised the guy, who claimed that i owe him. i told him we already talked on phone where he said forget about it.
he replied: "it doesnt matter i was drunk".
than asked how much money i have, i had 25$. he told me to give him 15$, so thus far were even...
than they left.
its pretty funny story actually if u think about it. just so surreal.
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On September 29 2011 21:29 Starcraftplaylist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc. At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved. I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land. I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe.
You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way.
Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is.
So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west.
What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically.
The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
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To the guy asking about personal experience.
When I was young I had a pretty successful band. We fell out with our drummer and took in a very talented drummer who happened to be Roma. He was from a family of musicians that was extremely well integrated for their standards, they lived in the city etc.
For two years we were good friends, we hung out, played concerts, made music, the works. We honestly embraced this guy in all kinds of ways. Then one day he told us this elaborate story how doctors discovered he has a life-threatening heart defect and that he urgently needs money for an operation because his family can't afford it. We lent him quite a lot of money, I personally contributed 150 euro (keep in mind I was a kid back then and in this country it was quite a lot of money).
Soon after, he stole a bunch of items from our practice place (my portable CD player and favorite microphone included, as well as radically important shit like guitars) and vanished. In the end, we found out he "emigrated" to the states because half of the city, including some pretty dangerous people, was after him for "borrowing" their stuff.
As far as I know, he's been living illegally in New Jersey for several years now flipping burgers and "borrowing" things. Needless to say, nothing was wrong with his heart... except for him being a backstabbing cunt.
There, my personal experience. My mother's wallet was also stolen by a gipsy woman but luckily she got caught in the act. And I've been personally pimped grade-school aged gipsy girls numerous times, right on the city streets and in broad daylight (asking me if I "needed a girlfriend").
And that's why I don't like Roma.
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I'm Canadian so I don't know about gypsies, but I am native so I at least can say (from my own people's experience) that forced assimilation doesn't work and moving populations into ghettos/reservations only works if you give them enough perverted incentives to stay there.
btw: no hard feelings about our land, whitey, s'all good
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I`m pretty sure that everyone or at least someone in his family in eastern europe has been a direct victim of gypsy crimes. It makes no sense to list all the incidents even for the tl.net members, because this thread will go more than 200 pages.
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On September 29 2011 21:43 decemberTV wrote:
The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
that is quite true. eastern europe or not, pretty much everyone who willing live an ok life able to be.
meaning dont have to worry about if there will be a roof over their head, what will they eat, will they be able to drink clean water the next week etc...
everytime my mother complains why she dont get more money, or why not live like americans or swedish people i just laugh at her, as she already in the luckiest 20% of the earth population considering place like africa, india, rural china and so on...
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On September 29 2011 21:43 decemberTV wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 21:29 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc. At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved. I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land. I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe. You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way. Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is. So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west. What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically. The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car.
You have seen fast growth, the last 30 years Sweden has been on decline in most relative comparisons in a number of different wealth and development indexes. Every year it gets worse. Norway and China soon own Sweden completely. We also have immigration issues and way too much public spending with heavy taxation.
Almost every country have an "enclave" of people in Sweden, including gypsies. Segregated as fuck and the people have completely different cultural/religious values and morals. Not a good foundation to enforce law and taxation upon.
This got a bit off topic...
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Lots of sad stories in here.. in the end i have had a very soft experience with the gipsy people compared to the Romanians and Bulgarians! But in Portugal we all know what their are worth witch is, unfortunately for them, nothing...
They need to change their ways if they want to respected, protected and accepted in our citys and countrys.
If they don't want to work, they have to work the fields so that they can support their families with food instead of crime. If they don't want to put their kids on school they should lose all their economic support from the state because at least in Portugal school is demanded until the 9 or 12 grade. If you fail at school constantly just to be out of it or misbehave to be expelled you should also lose your benefits. Camping is not accepted unless they have a permit. Loitering and garbage dumping and overall being pigs is not acceptable also since it will lead to disease and more hate from other populations. And last but not least all roma have or be force to accept the laws of the country they are in and must be held accountable for their actions.
A thief has to go to prison.
If they stop being dirty, work or sustain themselves without crime and put their children in school they will be out of this system that prevents them to be normal and respected citizens.
It's ok to want to live like a tribe, 30 people or more living together in family but it's not ok to setup a camp wherever you feel like, trash the place, don't take care of your garbage and your personal hygiene.. especially when there are children involved.
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Anecdotes won't convince anyone. It's a pretty silly thing to ask for anecdotes.
Gypsies cause trouble on a different level compared to any other ethnic minority. If you're from the US, you know that black neighborhoods ("ghettos") are or were associated with poverty, worse public services, in general poor living conditions and therefore higher crime rates.
Gypsy "neighborhoods" are landfills. They are the only group where this happens. Hundreds of illegal immigrants are dumped on the european shores daily, they get here with nothing and are forced to live in conditions that no sane person would consider decent. This is, I presume, similar to what happens with the US-Mexican border.
Gypsies are ten times worse than that. A lot of them have been here for generations; there are french, spanish and italian gypsies. Whereas other groups arrive in waves and slowly build up some dignity, often following some political event like the kosovo crisis, gypsies appear to live in shit by choice, although of course you can't blame the single individual for growing up in a stupid culture.
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On September 29 2011 22:07 Starcraftplaylist wrote:Show nested quote +On September 29 2011 21:43 decemberTV wrote:On September 29 2011 21:29 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 21:12 decemberTV wrote:On September 29 2011 20:35 Starcraftplaylist wrote:On September 29 2011 20:31 RageBot wrote:On September 29 2011 20:27 Starcraftplaylist wrote:
I don't understand why anyone from Romania, Bulgaria and so on stay in their countries if they are so plagued by some ethnic groups and corruption. Is it impossible to leave if you have a decent education? Just leave the lechers to leech from themselves. That would be an endearing sight. It would also be a better immigration to the west than we currently have. Because some pepole don't just see their countries as a place to live and earn money, some pepole love their countries, their cultures, family and friends, the history of their pepole etc etc. At some point one must realize that its futile to sail a ship that already sunk and save what remains to be saved. I'm just gonna assume you're american ok ? You see when people have been in the same place for 2500 years (and not 230 years of history the way you have there) they kind of care about that land. I'm not American, however you are probably misinformed about their patriotism. I'm from Sweden, the only poor country in northern Europe. You see the term "poor" is not something that everyone can relate to in the same way. Officially 10% of Americans live below the poverty line with less than 40.000$/year. Still if you ask someone from India or other poor countries you might get a very different answer as to what "poor" is. So i'm just going to say that Sweden is not a poor country. Ok? That being said i don't consider Romania or Bulgaria "poor" countries either. Both Romania and Bulgaria had the highest growing GDP in Europe before the 2008 crisis. The average income is ~700e / family and while thats obviously not that much, you also have to realize that many products and services are much cheaper here than they are in the west. What this means is that everyone can have a decent life as long as they want to work here as well. Still for some people the western countries are a "mirage" basically. The main problem is inherent to the way people think. Always wanting much more than they have and nothing is ever good enough; thats the kind of mentality that makes average people think they have it quite bad in the world when in reality the truth is you can live quite a happy life without owning a yacht or a 100.000e car. You have seen fast growth, the last 30 years Sweden has been on decline in most relative comparisons in a number of different wealth and development indexes. Every year it gets worse. Norway and China soon own Sweden completely. We also have immigration issues and way too much public spending with heavy taxation. Almost every country have an "enclave" of people in Sweden, including gypsies. Segregated as fuck and the people have completely different cultural/religious values and morals. Not a good foundation to enforce law and taxation upon. This got a bit off topic...
So basically you have the same problems as any other western country. Norway was lucky enough to find oil thats the only reason its doing at all better.
Immigration without assimilation will never work; its that simple. People should have to choose between moving in a better country and holding on to their very different ways of thinking.
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On September 29 2011 22:12 dementrio wrote:
Anecdotes won't convince anyone. It's a pretty silly thing to ask for anecdotes.
Gypsies cause trouble on a different level compared to any other ethnic minority. If you're from the US, you know that black neighborhoods ("ghettos") are or were associated with poverty, worse public services, in general poor living conditions and therefore higher crime rates.
Gypsy "neighborhoods" are landfills. They are the only group where this happens. Hundreds of illegal immigrants are dumped on the european shores daily, they get here with nothing and are forced to live in conditions that no sane person would consider decent. This is, I presume, similar to what happens with the US-Mexican border.
Gypsies are ten times worse than that. A lot of them have been here for generations; there are french, spanish and italian gypsies. Whereas other groups arrive in waves and slowly build up some dignity, often following some political event like the kosovo crisis, gypsies appear to live in shit by choice, although of course you can't blame the single individual for growing up in a stupid culture.
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part).
Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place.
Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture.
At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania).
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Since my ban time just ran off and this thread has become quite big (and apparently some people took seriously what I wrote in the first page) I would also like to give my honest opinion about this rather than just some random trolling.
I have been living in the Milan zone for over 14 years (the zone where the documentary posted in this thread was taken) and witnessed every same problem bulgarians or romanians claim to have in their own countries with most roma. It's obviously an education issue coming from an ancient and primitive nomadic way of life and the fact most of them are strongly against integration makes it almost impossible to deal with it in an easy way. Of course the ones who are willing to climb the culture difference and integrate themselves are worthy of the outmost respect but I also think the european countries need to take a stronger stance on criminality and they shouldn't just avoid the gypsy problem by sending them to Romania or Bulgaria. Romanians and bulgarians didn't do anything to deserve this situation, afaik romas settled into the balcans after being driven out of India for the same reasons France is giving them 300 euros to go back to Romania. The only real solution to this is just taking away the custody of children under slavery or parental abuse and giving them to families who are willing to educate them properly and send them to school. The flaw is in our own society that permits people to exploit childrens without any major repercussion to their criminal business and in our own laws that don't allow the authorities to take measures to prevent it.
Usually I just keep my opinion for myself when reading online forums because I think it's very hard to have a serious discussion in such an environment but I understand this time my post at the start of the thread was completely out of place and way too overboard and I would like to apologize to the TL staff for not taking TL seriously. The discussion in this thread is way better than the standards anyway and the documentary/content posted inside was extremely useful to understand better a situation people are just accustomed to approach with hate or resentment.
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On September 29 2011 22:22 decemberTV wrote:
This here is the very hard truth. Europe has immigrants from all over the world who within 2-3 generations become assimilated and integrated (for the most part).
Gypsies have been around for hundreds of years and that process simply has not taken place.
Americans in particular fail to see that its not an issue of race, but of culture.
At the same time its very difficult to get a lecture in multiculturalism from an american who is even against spanish being introduced as a second language when the EU has 23 different official languages and minorities are given the posibility to study in their own native language from primary school to university. (For example, the Hungarian minority in Romania).
It is not only a matter of integration. There are other groups that seem to pose an integration problem; examples are the chinese and some muslim groups in scandinavia, where they tend to isolate themselves and it's not uncommon to find 2nd or 3rd generation immigrants that are not fluent in their host country language. But no matter how much swedish people think this entitles them to racism, gypsies are comparatively a much, much larger social problem.
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On September 29 2011 22:26 aTnClouD wrote:
The only real solution to this is just taking away the custody of children under slavery or parental abuse and giving them to families who are willing to educate them properly and send them to school.
I dont think this will work. 50% of the children in the orphanages in Bulgaria are gypsies, while gypsies are around 5% of the Bulgarian population. Speaking of numbers thats are around 20000 gypsy children. Thats enourmous number for small country like BG. I guess in Romania the number is 5-6 times higher. These are kids, whose are parents are alive, but are just left without care and the state has stepped in and have taken care of them. Thats huge number of children and having in mind the poor economic condition of Bulgaria its not realistic that so many families would have the financial resources to take care of another kid. Not to mention, that the the public opinion is already so against the gypsies, that I doubt anyone would want to adopt or take care of gypsy children.
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