• Log InLog In
  • Register
Liquid`
Team Liquid Liquipedia
EDT 05:53
CEST 11:53
KST 18:53
  • Home
  • Forum
  • Calendar
  • Streams
  • Liquipedia
  • Features
  • Store
  • EPT
  • TL+
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Smash
  • Heroes
  • Counter-Strike
  • Overwatch
  • Liquibet
  • Fantasy StarCraft
  • TLPD
  • StarCraft 2
  • Brood War
  • Blogs
Forum Sidebar
Events/Features
News
Featured News
[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Siren's Call8[ASL22] Ro24 Preview: Summer's End9Serral wins HomeStory Cup 2915Serral wins Maestros of the Game 244ByuL, and the Limitations of Standard Play3
Community News
Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon?83Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20)9Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over3New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery!41Weekly Cups (August 17-23): Zerg dominate the week6
StarCraft 2
General
Nexon wins bid to develop StarCraft IP content, distribute Overwatch mobile game SC4ALL: II Winner Will Earn a Spot at HSC 30! Weekly Cups (August 24-30): Patches' balance mod takes over Balance hotfix patch 5.0.16b (July 16) September World Ranking: herO leads, Serral climbs
Tourneys
2026 GSTL Announcement Sparkling Tuna Cup - Weekly Open Tournament Stellar Fest TWO the Moon (Dec 16-20) IntoTheTV X SOOP SC2 League : Weekly & Monthly SC2 INu's Battles#20 [BO.9]
Strategy
[G] Having the right mentality to improve
Custom Maps
Nexus Wars 2021 GUIDE [M] (2) Industrial Park
External Content
Mutation # 541 Binary Choice The PondCast: SC2 News & Results Mutation # 540 Dodge This Mutation # 539 Thunder Dome
Brood War
General
New 3v3 BGH Ladder (and more) on ShieldBattery! BGH Auto Balance -> http://bghmmr.eu/ Gypsy to Korea Official StarCraft website teases new content ahead of BlizzCon? ASL22 General Discussion
Tourneys
Small VOD Thread 2.0 Brood War in Budapest ! WORTEX 2026 BW Finals KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3 [Megathread] Daily Proleagues
Strategy
Odyssey Mineral Stack Saturation Replay Review Process - What do you do? Game Theory for Starcraft Fighting Spirit mining rates
Other Games
General Games
Nintendo Switch Thread Diablo IV EVE Corporation [Maplestory Hardcore] Let's Play~!! General RTS Discussion Thread
Dota 2
Official 'what is Dota anymore' discussion
League of Legends
[TL LoL EUW IHs] Teemo shall perish TSM pausing esports and CLG Dead
Heroes of the Storm
Heroes of the Storm 2.0
Hearthstone
Deck construction bug
TL Mafia
TL Mafia Power Rank TL Mafia Community Thread NeO.D_StephenKing vs This Guy From 1 Million Dance
Community
General
Things Aren’t Peaceful in Palestine US Politics Mega-thread Artificial Intelligence Thread Canadian Politics Mega-thread UK Politics Mega-thread
Fan Clubs
MarineLorD Fan Club The Creator Fan Club The ShoWTimE Fan Club
Media & Entertainment
Movie Discussion! Anime Discussion Thread
Sports
Football (Soccer) Thread TeamLiquid Health and Fitness Initiative For 2023 MLB/Baseball 2023 NBA General Discussion
World Cup 2022
Tech Support
Computer Build, Upgrade & Buying Resource Thread
TL Community
The Automated Ban List Northern Ireland Global Starcraft
Blogs
Dreaming of BW patches (mod…
c3rberUs
Regacy Esports: The Bh…
regacyesports
Violent Games and Crime Rate…
TrAiDoS
LOCKPICKING NOOB
LUCKY_NOOB
Cathedral Of CS And NY pizza a…
FuDDx
Customize Sidebar...

Website Feedback

Closed Threads



Active: 7276 users

The State of ZvZ: IdrA’s Thoughts on the Metagame - Page 3

Forum Index > SC2 General
Post a Reply
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
An2quamaraN
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland379 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:25:06
July 03 2012 21:24 GMT
#41
Please...why we need to hear the opinion of Idra...? I may listen to someone who is good at Starcraft or at least does well currently, not someone who has 33% W/L ratio in 2012...Code S zergs for example.

From what i see, people that utilize things like nydus worms, focus on upgrades and has good usage of infestors, don't seem to have problems with ZvZ. I would take Symbol as an example.
Irave
Profile Joined October 2010
United States9965 Posts
July 03 2012 21:25 GMT
#42
I truly enjoy watching ZvZ. Its come a long way.
AgentChaos
Profile Joined July 2011
United Kingdom4569 Posts
July 03 2012 21:29 GMT
#43
at least its better than pvp
IM & EG supporter
Fortii
Profile Joined December 2011
Germany760 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:31:10
July 03 2012 21:29 GMT
#44
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.
IdrA!
procrastibation
Profile Joined July 2012
81 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 22:09:43
July 03 2012 21:32 GMT
#45
Not much to see here. Just a scripted interview made by EG's pr team to make as much money as possible. I doubt these are idra's genuine and original opinions. EG went through an entire process of PR and editing to create a perfect article with the sole purpose of getting as many views as possible so they make money. I mean why the hell would idra want to share his opinions, if not to make as much money as possible. We all know that Idra's true opinion would be more like "omg zvz total coinflip can't win even tho i'm more skilled blizzard are imbeciles," but this wouldn't be as popular as a totally scripted interview that has been designed to be as popular as possible to get the maximum amount of viewers possible. just the same old corporate scheming to find out ways to make as much possible money with no consideration for the consumer
wcr.4fun
Profile Joined April 2012
Belgium686 Posts
July 03 2012 21:34 GMT
#46
idra is pretty much right though. If you watch a lot of zvz's, every single one is different. That's all he's saying and I have to agree based on the zvz's I've seen recently.

You've got the occasional lings/blings wars. The mass roach wars. The hydra is becoming a lot more popular all of the sudden. People are researching drops and doing massive drops with roaches. Surprise buttrape nydus is being used a lot. Muta's were really popular, then got raped by fungals, now people split their muta's and are raping infestors. Even ultra's and broodlords are seeing their uses. And there's no real indication of what can or will happen in a zvz. One moment you might have a ling/bling war and the next they're teching towards ultra's.
you basically can't do anything wrong in this match up concerning strategy.
how2TL
Profile Joined August 2010
1197 Posts
July 03 2012 21:38 GMT
#47
ZvZzzzzzz

At least Roach vs Roach, that is a damn snoozefest.
MCDayC
Profile Joined March 2011
United Kingdom14464 Posts
July 03 2012 21:42 GMT
#48
ZvZ is awesome to watch right now, even if it is a bitch to play.
VERY FRAGILE, LIKE A BABY PANDA EGG
Goetzinho ftw
Profile Joined June 2012
Germany115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-04 03:10:56
July 03 2012 21:43 GMT
#49
No one cares what a lower mediocre foreigners says about the matchup.

User was temp banned for this post and other crappy posts.
Diavlo
Profile Joined July 2011
Belgium2915 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:46:13
July 03 2012 21:43 GMT
#50
On July 04 2012 06:09 sekritzzz wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 05:19 NEEDZMOAR wrote:
On July 04 2012 05:01 Ireniicus wrote:
Idra is not a good player to quote as he historically does not bring rational argument to anything strategic (anyone that claims "MKP is terrible" is clearly not a logical thinker). Z V Z is getting better and better. I think the recent patch changes have done wonders as I have seen alot of very good zvz's lately...not something I could have said 3 months ago.


except that about 8-10 months ago he predicted exactly what zvp would look like now. Right in the middle of all the haters and qqers.

What did he actually predict about the the state of ZvP?

8-10 months ago, the only thing I remember is him whining about Collusus death balls and jamming roach/hydra on them, and him discrediting good players because of their race (ex: Idra calling Morrow a Gold-level player if he didnt play the abusive race of terran.)

So really... I don't blame people if they dont take idra seriously when it comes to the state of a match up or balance issues.


You do realize that Morrow switched to zerg late 2010 right? 7 month ago IdrA was saying that Morrow had a very interesting ZvP style with lings and bling drops and was actually very good.

As for his view on ZvZ i don't really think there is anything groundbreaking, it's clear that every top player kinda do whatever... Symbol and DRG have good ZvZ records because they just have way better mechanics than most. Even Nestea who seemed to have all the openings and early roach timings down to the tee just looks like every other good zerg now (with actually less refined mechanics).

EDIT: wtf, i know the article is not the most fascinating but half of the posts are just retarded attacks on IdrA.


"I don't know how many years on this Earth I got left. I'm gonna get real weird with it."
Embir
Profile Joined January 2011
Poland567 Posts
July 03 2012 21:44 GMT
#51
On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.


Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2.
As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department...
FallDownMarigold
Profile Blog Joined December 2010
United States3710 Posts
July 03 2012 21:46 GMT
#52
On July 04 2012 04:45 Paljas wrote:
nestea doesnt mind zvz.
and life neither


K. Cool comment. Did Idra say he minds it? He simply says it's got a lot of development and potential in store for the future. That being said, it follows that it's difficult for most if not all people to understand it fully.
FrogOfWar
Profile Joined March 2010
Germany1406 Posts
July 03 2012 21:47 GMT
#53
I don't mind ZvZ, as long as Bnet doesn't give me 10 in a row. There is quite a number of strategies you can do and games turn out very differently, a big improvement from Broodwar methinks. The queen buff has improved the matchup too, because if you're sick of baneling wars, you can get pretty ling/bling proof with queens and spines and simply avoid it.
AsymptoticClimax
Profile Joined May 2012
United Kingdom249 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-03 21:50:20
July 03 2012 21:49 GMT
#54
On July 04 2012 04:49 Existor wrote:
Roach to roach. It's so interesting. I have hope for Hots, where that Roach-festor combo will not be an ultimate combo in zvz


My predictions are Swarmhost/Hydra with speed upgrade maybe complimented by a few vipers to counter infestors if needed.


Also: I dont mind ZvZ since I win like 90% of them somehow.
i wish my motherboard would find a fatherboard so i could have anotherboard
dragoon
Profile Joined December 2010
United States695 Posts
July 03 2012 21:49 GMT
#55
On July 04 2012 04:59 zeratul_jf wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 04:52 Sc2Null wrote:
On July 04 2012 04:51 zeratul_jf wrote:
While Nestea is extremely good at ZvZ, i dont think its fair to say that Idra adds nothing to the discussion. His best match up is ZvZ at least from my experience watching him play. It might be because of his better mechanics but i think ZvZ comes to a lot of scouting, and the way zerg produces units.


His worst mu is ZvZ..his best is ZvT..according to him anyway.

Also: its strange when scouting comes into play as both players usually know what each others are doing.



Yea according to him, but take into account that because they like to play a match up doesnt mean that they always do good in it. I mean stephano said his best was ZvT, but his ZvP had a better record. While this could be because he faces higher lvl players that play T rather than P, but its enough to proof my point that a players self proclaimed best match up isnt always their best per say.

While at the start is really easy to see what your opponent is doing because there is no denying overloads, mid and on is a different story. As more creep is around for your queens to deny vision, also mutas could come into play. But i meant scouting as in when is my opponent building and army, when is he droning. And because of the way zerg is one can go from hey im done droning to bam mass army in a few production cycles.

your best match up is, for the most part, the one you're most comfortable in. winrate doesn't always matter
i love you
Fencar
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
United States2694 Posts
July 03 2012 21:52 GMT
#56
I love watching ZvZ, very hard to play though. I love how, like in TvT, every unit is viable to an extent, and there is so much room for micro and mind games.
This is my signature. There are many like it, but this one is mine.
FuGGu
Profile Joined March 2012
United States176 Posts
July 03 2012 21:53 GMT
#57
I agree, I love watching ZvZ! Some matchups like TvT or PvZ can get super stale and predictable, but ZvZ always seems to be a crazy damn ride every game...it's a refreshing change to watch sometimes.
haffy
Profile Joined September 2010
United Kingdom430 Posts
July 03 2012 21:54 GMT
#58
I'll take ZvZ over ZvP any day. Balance completely aside, ZvP is fucking boring.


Everything he says in the article seems really solid to me, especially the 15 pool/15 hatch opening over 14pool/14 gas. However I think he's kind of throwing hydras aside too quickly. I think ZvZ is the one match up where they're actually a stable strategy, unlike ZvP where at certain points in the match up they become almost useless. Also I think against the ling/infester/ultra style hydras become much better. Kind of hard to know though because of how often it happens.
Deleted User 26513
Profile Joined February 2007
2376 Posts
July 03 2012 21:56 GMT
#59
IDK about the least favorite match-up part... ZvZ is actually pretty fun to watch AND to play. I even find some zvz matches much more entertaining than the ZvP late game "vortex broodlord dance".
dAPhREAk
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
Nauru12397 Posts
July 03 2012 22:00 GMT
#60
On July 04 2012 06:44 Embir wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2012 06:29 Fortii wrote:
sad to watch that everything idra says evolves into a discussion about idra and all the haters feel the need to crawl out of theyr caves and post stupid stuff, instead of discussing the actual content.
this community makes me scratch my head alot.

personally, i enjoy watching zvz, if the players are good at it and show some nice multitastking. but i also agree with that "interview", tier3 is rare and a lot of stuff beside roaches seem weak.


Well it only backfires for IdrA for shit he spitted out during early days of SC2.
As long as he had results a lot of people take him as a jerk, but at least talented jerk. I guess for now we can remove talented part, at least in SC2 department...

is there an expiration date on results? idra has a long history of talent.
Prev 1 2 3 4 5 9 10 11 Next All
Please log in or register to reply.
Live Events Refresh
Next event in 7m
[ Submit Event ]
Live Streams
Refresh
StarCraft 2
BRAT_OK 70
MindelVK 19
StarCraft: Brood War
Zeus 1002
actioN 590
Bisu 556
Larva 321
Hyuk 259
hero 133
Killer 132
Sexy 78
soO 70
Pusan 68
[ Show more ]
Light 57
sSak 34
Yoon 31
Sharp 31
Bale 23
NaDa 18
Free 16
sorry 13
Hm[arnc] 12
Noble 7
HiyA 1
Dota 2
XcaliburYe660
resolut1ontv 279
Counter-Strike
byalli1498
edward54
Super Smash Bros
Mew2King131
Heroes of the Storm
Khaldor124
Other Games
gofns13977
singsing1963
XaKoH 223
Happy195
Organizations
Other Games
gamesdonequick1072
BasetradeTV103
[ Show 10 non-featured ]
StarCraft 2
• CranKy Ducklings SOOP9
• AfreecaTV YouTube
• intothetv
• Kozan
• IndyKCrew
• Migwel
StarCraft: Brood War
• BSLYoutube
• STPLYoutube
• ZZZeroYoutube
League of Legends
• Jankos2181
Upcoming Events
Sparkling Tuna Cup
7m
CranKy Ducklings2
OSC
2h 7m
Shopify Rebellion Sundays
5h 7m
Mixu vs TBD
Spirit vs TBD
Clem vs TBD
Patches Events
6h 7m
OSC
14h 7m
Afreeca Starleague
1d
Soma vs Shuttle
BeSt vs Rush
WardiTV Weekly
1d 1h
Monday Night Weeklies
1d 6h
Afreeca Starleague
2 days
Leta vs ggaemo
Jaedong vs Queen
GSL
2 days
[ Show More ]
PiGosaur Cup
2 days
Kung Fu Cup
3 days
Replay Cast
3 days
The PondCast
4 days
KCM Race Survival
4 days
Escore
5 days
IntoTheTV X SOOP
5 days
CranKy Ducklings
6 days
Liquipedia Results

Completed

Proleague 2026-09-02
PiG Sty Festival 8.0
Light Tournament 2026

Ongoing

KCM Race Survival 2026 Season 3
K-JUNGMAN
ASL Season 22
Super Anchor Qualifying S3
CSL 2026 AUTUMN (S22)
Acropolis #5
Acropolis #5 - TRS
RSL Revival: Season 6
Calamity Invitational
Big Dog Cup 2026 Div 1
BLAST Open Fall 2026
Esports World Cup 2026
Esports World Cup 2026: LCQ
BLAST Bounty Summer 2026
BLAST Bounty Summer Qual
Stake Ranked Episode 3
XSE Pro League 2026

Upcoming

Escore Tournament S3: King of Kings
Blizzard Classic Cup 2026
Acropolis #5 - GSA
Acropolis #5 - GSB
Acropolis #5 - GSC
SC4ALL II: Brood War
HSC XXX
Stellar Fest 2: Lunar Cup
SC4ALL II: StarCraft II
Kung Fu Cup 2026 Grand Finals
RSL Offline Finals
BLAST Rivals Fall 2026
IEM Beijing 2026
Stake Ranked Episode 5
PGL Masters Bucharest 2026
1win Private Club #2
Thunderpick World Champ. '26
ESL Pro League Season 24
Stake Ranked Episode 4
1win Private Club #1
Logitech G Play Connect 2026
SL StarSeries Fall 2026
FISSURE Playground #3
TLPD

1. ByuN
2. TY
3. Dark
4. Solar
5. Stats
6. Nerchio
7. sOs
8. soO
9. INnoVation
10. Elazer
1. Rain
2. Flash
3. EffOrt
4. Last
5. Bisu
6. Soulkey
7. Mini
8. Sharp
Sidebar Settings...

Advertising | Privacy Policy | Terms Of Use | Contact Us

Original banner artwork: Jim Warren
The contents of this webpage are copyright © 2026 TLnet. All Rights Reserved.