EPTYeah the AOE-attack could probably work after some balance/tweaking. But the caster need two more spel presumably.
The trap-spell might also work. My biggest concern is that I found no good model in the editor to use as a trap.
[A] Starbow - Page 239
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Yeah the AOE-attack could probably work after some balance/tweaking. But the caster need two more spel presumably. The trap-spell might also work. My biggest concern is that I found no good model in the editor to use as a trap. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On April 06 2013 00:41 Kabel wrote: @Hider Yeah the AOE-attack could probably work after some balance/tweaking. But the caster need two more spel presumably. The trap-spell might also work. My biggest concern is that I found no good model in the editor to use as a trap. What about a modified version of the widow mine as a model? Anyway, if your still interested in getting the Nullifier in the game within a reasonable time horizont I can try to think of 1-2 new abiltiies to get it if you want to. But I guess it kinda depends on which role the abilities should serve? Which types of units should they counter and should it be a battleoriented, harassoriented thing, preemptive-setup (mine, traps) etc. ? Btw did you give dropships the upgrade to pick up siege tanks? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
You are more than welcome to design the Nullifier in a way you think would be good for the game. I should have posted that request in the thread long time ago actually : / I forgot to add the dropship upgrade >.< I am uploading the patch now. In 10 minutes everything is complete so we can try it! | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
See you all online on EU. ^^ | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I am working on them now | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
I suggest the following changes to the reaper; 1) Reaper movement speed increased by 0.25 (in order for them to kite zerglings). 2) Reapers now have 4 spider mines each and they can by laid down without a cooldown. Regarding hellions, at 100 minerals (quite expensive) they probably have more use in batles rather than in fights. Like lets compare a Starbow scenario to a BW scenario. In Starbow you will be able to afford 5 reapers and 5 hellions at a mineral cost of 750. In BW you will be able to afford 10 vultures at a cost of 750 minerals. This means that in BW you would be able to sucidie maybe your 5 vultures into harass and then have the remaining 5 vultures as a meatshield to protect your tank line (along with spider mines). Suiciding vulturues made sense as they efficient at harassing and the value after they have laid down mines would be less than a newly produced vulturue. In Starbow a new hellion/reaper is just as valuable as an old hellion/reaper. Even if we assume the reaper change as suggested goes through, you will still not be able to harass with your hellions, as you need them as meatshield. Also battle hellions are significantly better as meatshield than vulturues, which means that you will be more incentivized to keep them with your army rather than harassing. So actually this vulture removal has actually been quite huge nerf to terran harass and is has incentivized deathballs. Tweaking stats can fix this, and I would consider reducing the mineral cost of hellions and nerf battle hellions if they turn out to be OP (probably damage so battle hellions still can work as meatshield). With this change players will be be able to afford a few more hellions which they will use for harass. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
Patch is up in a couple of minutes. Reapers have a little faster speed so they can outrun Zerglings without speed upg. Spider mines are no longer 1 minute cooldown. I wait before I reduce hellion mineral cost though. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On April 06 2013 04:36 Kabel wrote: I agree HIder. Patch is up in a couple of minutes. Reapers have a little faster speed so they can outrun Zerglings without speed upg. Spider mines are no longer 1 minute cooldown. I wait before I reduce hellion mineral cost though. Yeh it is fine to wait before reducing hellion mineral cost. I just think it should be something that should b e considered atm as Sc2 hellions are balanced due to terrans having excessive minerals, which they do not have in Starbow. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
The squares of Starbow Out of the maps, this one caught my fancy. I wonder, with the rift, could you bug out rift and get units onto the highground by: placing the nexus on the edge below the cliff and surrounding it with buildings? The high ground cliff middle and 4 wings made me stop right away, but starbow has different highground capabilities for each race than sc2. I like the 8 spoke design as a concept, making a space open, but not too open. It leaves room for counter attack maneuvers but gives the small army a way to not get flanked 360. I also like that the third has a path out, if it didn't I'd say the map allows for 3 bases too easy (I'm a player not a map maker, shoot me). On another note, since there is no roach (and thus no roach max style attack), there might be less restriction in general with regards to starbow maps. 4 bases is nice to take for protoss and terran, walling off the small choke. I think we'll see greedy/sneaky protosses/zerg taking the outermost base counter clockwise to their opponent, because the walking distance is so far. Also, if you places overlords/shuttles in that area, should the opponent send a small force you just defend, but if they send a big part of their army, you sac that base and drop their nat/main, which are both quick and easy to access. I'd love to see the 2v2's on that map. The rolling, action in multiple places style of starbow, multipled by 2. Oh and the middle and high ground promotes drop tech, which is nice. --- Oh yea, as a random other note, remember the ancient wraith in starbow, that had that anti-ground&air splash missile it could fire every 45 seconds? I have a stupid, gamey idea. Weaken the missile, give it 10 seconds cool down, and make the wraith stock with 3. When it flies over a supply depot the stock regenerates. Besides the missiles it can just have a weak ground laser and medium powered normal missiles. It's a upgradeable cloak fighter that relies on good missiles impacts to combat the beefier air units of the other races, and hit and run against static defenses or anything slower than it. Against things which can match it's speed: corsairs, mutalisks, (upgraded scouts?), and other wraiths, it can cloak+split and then either missiles the obs, or run away. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
Meanwhile I believe the Starbow hellion will suffer from lack of effiiency in tvp as a harass unit. As someone who has tried quite a lot of mech in tvp in WOL/HOTS, harassing with hellions in midgame can be quite good if your opponent is unprepared, however against a protoss who just plays defensive hellions will do absolutely nothing. Since mineral income is lower in Starbow I expect hellion harass to be even less efficient and the most likely outcome (once the game is fugred out) will be that terran players will only get enough battle hellions in order to be able to absorg zealot splash and use the reamining minerals on siege tanks. Excessive gas will be spent on reapers. This isn't optimal gameplay IMO as game will be quite turtlish in the midgame (assuming players play optimally) which is the opposite of what we all want. Another (potential) issue with TvP mech is that it feels kinda unsmooth/complex that it is neccesity to have to control both reapers and hellions. I think this make mech feel a bit too difficult, and while this increases the skill, this also makes the game more difficult for nonexperienced Starbow players. I prefer that the reapers becomes an optional unit which great mech players can choose to get if they havfe excessive APM rather than a neccesity unit. So to sum up this is what I want; - Better opportunies for reaper early game harass - More efficient hellion harass - Reaper less of a neccesity in TvP mech, though still a great unit to have in the mid and late game. Solutions; 1) Change the reaper to the HOTS reaper 2) Give it modified version of D8-charges as a mid/late game upgrade. 3) Change reaper supply from 1 to 2. 4) Give hellions spidermines. Since mech terrans have excessive gas, the reaper will be quite usefull to have in the late game as it will be able to take down static defenses. Static defenses can sometimes deny harass a bit too efficiently (which can create nonactionpacked games), and therefore I believe D8 charges will be a nice addition to the gameplay. This will force the opponent to react with his units rather than just relying on crawlers/cannons to clean up the hellions/reapers. As I fear mass reapers might be a bit too strong late game with D8-charges I suggest to increase supply from 1 to 2 which means that getting more than 7-8 reapers typically be inefficient as it will make your army to supply inefficient. Instead Hellions receive spider mines which means that terrans willl be able to place some spider mines in front of their army and then "suicide" them into harass. This will make hellions more usefull overall as a harass unit rather than as a deathball unit. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
Any idea about the bright fuschia SCVs? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Another concern regarding worker harass and comparing vultures / hellions. If you could get your vultures to a mineral-line you would usually do the same amount of damage if your opponent reacted the same way every time. If the hellions can get into the mineral line I feel they either do very little dgm or a ton of dmg, all based on how fast your opponent respond and how he responds. It is one of those "Oh, I did not pay attention for 2 sec and lost the game" movements which there are so few of in Starbow, but way too many of in SC2. This is one of the thing I like about Starbow (don't know if it is intentional). Each worker is more valuable as well in SB than SC2. If I loose my whole mineral-line because of poor micro or that I did not get spine crawlers up in time, I have lost. If I let vultures in, sure they can kill a lot, but rarely a whole mineral-line, and coming back is hard but possible. I am, on the other hand not saying that this is sufficient testing to make any changes, just my thoughts and concerns so far, we need more bug-free testing to make any adjustments atm. Maybe all races develop nice strategies to deal with these concerns. | ||
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Chronopolis
Canada1484 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9390 Posts
On April 06 2013 14:39 Xiphias wrote: D8 might be too strong but I agree with many of the other things of HideR. One of the "sweet moments" of Starbow/BW was to be able to get vultures into your opponents main base so you could cover his production with mines. This is no longer an impressive feat since jumping strait into his main is fairly easy with reapers. Another concern regarding worker harass and comparing vultures / hellions. If you could get your vultures to a mineral-line you would usually do the same amount of damage if your opponent reacted the same way every time. If the hellions can get into the mineral line I feel they either do very little dgm or a ton of dmg, all based on how fast your opponent respond and how he responds. It is one of those "Oh, I did not pay attention for 2 sec and lost the game" movements which there are so few of in Starbow, but way too many of in SC2. This is one of the thing I like about Starbow (don't know if it is intentional). Each worker is more valuable as well in SB than SC2. If I loose my whole mineral-line because of poor micro or that I did not get spine crawlers up in time, I have lost. If I let vultures in, sure they can kill a lot, but rarely a whole mineral-line, and coming back is hard but possible. I am, on the other hand not saying that this is sufficient testing to make any changes, just my thoughts and concerns so far, we need more bug-free testing to make any adjustments atm. Maybe all races develop nice strategies to deal with these concerns. We can nerf D8 charges compared to its old WOl stats which indeed would be too powerful. I actully don't tink the "losing the wohle mineral-line" is that much of a concern as terarns will be able to afford fewer hellions than what they did could in Sc2. So 10 hellions opening is really not a viable option in Starbow. Rather I think we will see 2-4 hellions along with maybe 1-2 reapers and some bio units, and it is quite limited what they can do of damage, even if the opponent messes up. | ||
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Fuchsteufelswild
Australia2028 Posts
WoL Reaper ...what delay are you talking about? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I will also reply to your thoughts. and share my own concerns regarding the current state. I will not do any drastic changes just yet though, but I am prepared to do it after some additional testing and thoughts. | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I write reply later. | ||
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