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Denmark9407 Posts
Activate to make the Immortal benign for 15 seconds. Enemy units must target fire to attack it. This abililty will likely suffer from being quite bad against great players and OP against bad players, as it requires little skill to use optimally but a decent amount of skill to play against. - Cover target small area with a shield. All friendy ground units and buildings inside it takes 50% less damage during 20 seconds. Won't this ability be just as usefull offensively as defensively? | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
On April 08 2013 03:05 Xiphias wrote: Another bug. Small but might be hard to fix. When I press "F2" the scourges does not become included in my army. I love the "F2" button in general "I need my whole army NOW!", but I wish it was possbile to have another hotkey to disable selected units from the "F2-effect", such as defending high templars, that you don't want to bring along. Is this possible to make? I guess I'm just lazy... Regarding anti-deathball. Let me repeat. If we keep the BW trigger movement (and we should imo), there is no more deathball at all in the game, only large armies that move in a line, so no need to focus on breaking it up further. In fact, units might spread out so well now, that some AOE spells might wanna get buffed in order for them to do the same dmg, but I might be wrong on that one. It slows down the deathball ^^. You can still dball, just takes effort and time. It still isn't quite BW pathing or 12 unit control groups. It is still VERY possible (and favorable at times) to ball your units. AOE shouldn't be overbuffed. You will get more favorable engagements vs attackers (especially unorganized) simply because you are fighting less at a time, no need to buff aoe vs single file lines. | ||
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kuroshiro
United Kingdom378 Posts
I would just play the game but I haven't upgraded to HotS, and I'm guessing starbow has already? | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
On April 08 2013 18:38 kuroshiro wrote: Can I ask what this "BW trigger movement" is? It sounds interesting but I can't find any other references to it on the forums - is there a thread I've missed? I would just play the game but I haven't upgraded to HotS, and I'm guessing starbow has already? You need HoTS to play Starbow now. Blizzard needs the money (jk). The "BW trigger movement" is not defined in the thread so I will try to do so here. Back in SCBW units moved and behaved differntly than they did in SC2. Their unit movement engine was not optimized. They would bump into each other, and block each other in such a way that if you moved many units at once they would cenverge into a line. Melee units would not auto-surround like they do in SC2. This made the defenders advantage grater than it is in SC2, since your oppodents units came in a line (not completly) when they attacked. In BW, you would try to work around this by placing your units in a vertical line before you attacked, and set up your attack from as many angels as possible. This is still somewhat done in SC2 as well. When Maverck started making SC2BW, he soon realized that it could not be "true BW" without the stupid unit.movement, so by using triggers, he amde the units move more in the way of BW, hence the "name" "BW trigger movement". Decembersclam (yes, clam) copied these triggers and made them for Starbow. It was never intended by blizzard, I think, to make "stupid" units in BW, so they fixed that in SC2, wihtout knowing it would promote "deathball" play (I think). Please correct me if I'm wrong in any of my statemets. | ||
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Denmark9407 Posts
- Making Science Vessels more difficult to use vs lurkers (so 2-3 lurkers could do a better job of holding ground instead of just dying to a "deathball" terran army). - Incentivize terrans to transition into mech late game. IMO the most awesome BW games had the the terran opening aggresivve with bio + SV and then slowly transitioning into mech after he had secured 4+ bases. Then the game dynamic would change completely as the terran would be forced to split up his army completely and the zerg would counter by overlord dropping like a mad man. But were the non terran matchups bad since bw unit movement was a neccesity? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
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decemberscalm
United States1353 Posts
The effects of this: Auto Surround is less effective Units move more like columns than clumps. Auto surround being less effective means you benefit more from micro. Think of how visceral micro for melee units was in BW. In SC2 trying to do any sort of micro with in terms of getting a surround is generally harmful or simply not worth the time. There are some exceptions like trying to block units, but that is as hard as walking past the enemy and then attacking. The biggest improvement would be that units don't move in clumps, they move in columns. I have a few examples of how this improves game play. Think about how easy it is to get a group of units up to walk up to static D and focus them down extremely quickly while taking minimal losses in SC2. Contrast this with BW where you could hold a ramp pretty damn effectively with a very small force. The defenders fight smaller amounts of units at a time. In this way we have a defenders advantage that is beneficial against big armies, but not against smallers armies, drops, or air harass. Another example. One of the amazing things in BW you could do as Zerg is catch marines out of position. That is impossible if they are always clumped, even when moving. In BW you can attack the sides of Protoss deathball's and pick off units, trying to whittle down the army, even with a smaller army. Impossible in SC2 unless he splits. More skill can used during engagements. Position before engagements matters more, micro during matters more. Battles will last longer. No clumps of massive DPS, instead smaller skirmishing is more possible. @Hider The utterly most deathballish mu in BW was PvZ. P used deathball's to break Zerg bases. I agree though, TvZ is already an amazing MU. Doesn't mean it can't get better. It'll benefit every other match up more. Ling vs ling micro. Zealots vs ling engagements. Zerg attacking chokes with hydras. Vice versa. ETC. TLDR: Allows micro Rewards positioning Makes battles more skirmishes than two clumps of dps vaporizing the other Allows chokes to actually be effective | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
Can someone check if stream is working? If yes, stream is up  | ||
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JohnnyZerg
Italy378 Posts
On April 09 2013 03:02 decemberscalm wrote: What the triggers actually do. Checks to see if there is another units in front of it while moving, if there is it temporarily stops the unit for a short time. The effects of this: Auto Surround is less effective Units move more like columns than clumps. Auto surround being less effective means you benefit more from micro. Think of how visceral micro for melee units was in BW. In SC2 trying to do any sort of micro with in terms of getting a surround is generally harmful or simply not worth the time. There are some exceptions like trying to block units, but that is as hard as walking past the enemy and then attacking. The biggest improvement would be that units don't move in clumps, they move in columns. I have a few examples of how this improves game play. Think about how easy it is to get a group of units up to walk up to static D and focus them down extremely quickly while taking minimal losses in SC2. Contrast this with BW where you could hold a ramp pretty damn effectively with a very small force. The defenders fight smaller amounts of units at a time. In this way we have a defenders advantage that is beneficial against big armies, but not against smallers armies, drops, or air harass. Another example. One of the amazing things in BW you could do as Zerg is catch marines out of position. That is impossible if they are always clumped, even when moving. In BW you can attack the sides of Protoss deathball's and pick off units, trying to whittle down the army, even with a smaller army. Impossible in SC2 unless he splits. More skill can used during engagements. Position before engagements matters more, micro during matters more. Battles will last longer. No clumps of massive DPS, instead smaller skirmishing is more possible. @Hider The utterly most deathballish mu in BW was PvZ. P used deathball's to break Zerg bases. I agree though, TvZ is already an amazing MU. Doesn't mean it can't get better. It'll benefit every other match up more. Ling vs ling micro. Zealots vs ling engagements. Zerg attacking chokes with hydras. Vice versa. ETC. TLDR: Allows micro Rewards positioning Makes battles more skirmishes than two clumps of dps vaporizing the other Allows chokes to actually be effective +1 In addition to making award-winning micro, armies less compact, have less dps/m2 = battles more longer. More battle duration = you can make more micro | ||
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Xiphias
Norway2223 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 09 2013 03:02 decemberscalm wrote: What the triggers actually do. Checks to see if there is another units in front of it while moving, if there is it temporarily stops the unit for a short time. The effects of this: Auto Surround is less effective Units move more like columns than clumps. Auto surround being less effective means you benefit more from micro. Think of how visceral micro for melee units was in BW. In SC2 trying to do any sort of micro with in terms of getting a surround is generally harmful or simply not worth the time. There are some exceptions like trying to block units, but that is as hard as walking past the enemy and then attacking. The biggest improvement would be that units don't move in clumps, they move in columns. I have a few examples of how this improves game play. Think about how easy it is to get a group of units up to walk up to static D and focus them down extremely quickly while taking minimal losses in SC2. Contrast this with BW where you could hold a ramp pretty damn effectively with a very small force. The defenders fight smaller amounts of units at a time. In this way we have a defenders advantage that is beneficial against big armies, but not against smallers armies, drops, or air harass. Another example. One of the amazing things in BW you could do as Zerg is catch marines out of position. That is impossible if they are always clumped, even when moving. In BW you can attack the sides of Protoss deathball's and pick off units, trying to whittle down the army, even with a smaller army. Impossible in SC2 unless he splits. More skill can used during engagements. Position before engagements matters more, micro during matters more. Battles will last longer. No clumps of massive DPS, instead smaller skirmishing is more possible. @Hider The utterly most deathballish mu in BW was PvZ. P used deathball's to break Zerg bases. I agree though, TvZ is already an amazing MU. Doesn't mean it can't get better. It'll benefit every other match up more. Ling vs ling micro. Zealots vs ling engagements. Zerg attacking chokes with hydras. Vice versa. ETC. TLDR: Allows micro Rewards positioning Makes battles more skirmishes than two clumps of dps vaporizing the other Allows chokes to actually be effective But isn't there a way to reward micro, positioning (this is already rewarded heavily in Sc2, just in a different way) and remove the deathball in a different way? The problem with implementing BW-pathing is that it (IMO) is very annoying. Personally, I don't wanna relearn how to use move my hellions. I want to control them in a similar way, and I think a lot of potential newcommers to Starbow will feel the same way as I do (unless they have a huge bias for BW over Sc2). And basically that was why I asked if there is a deathball problem in any of the matches in Starbow (not BW), because changing the pathing will definitely reduce the efficiency of the deathball. But is this neccesary? Is PvZ so deathballheavy at the moment that there is no other way to "fix" it than to implement an (IMO) annoying feature into the game? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
http://drop.sc/320933 | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
I decided to give the BW-pathing another try since I got an even better trigger sent to me this time. What I regard as advantages The new pathing system makes army movement happen in a "line formation" when moving over the map. ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/QPuI6jE.jpg) This allows three things for the game: - The opponent can flank much more efficent. - The opponent can move in with few units and engage a part of the larger army, and thereby dwindle it down bit by bit. - This creates weakness for players in their army movement, which the enemy can exploit. (This applies to both players) In the normal movement system, units move in a clump: ![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/CYEvSbS.jpg) - There is no idea for a small army to attack a larger army moving across the map, to inflict damage - Units are always in an optimal protected combat formation. There are some other advantages that I see with it, for example auto-surround becomes worse, which thereby encourages flanking and pre-combat unit set ups. Disadvantges - It is annoying for people who are not used to it - It raises the pre-knowledge that is required to be able to play the game. Yes, I am aware that the game can be designed/created in other ways to achieve this. I am also aware that I do not have the time, skills or enough game understanding to make it work in reality. If anyone wanna drop a perfect recipe, please do so. Personally I do not find this system annoying. I actually like it, from what I've experienced from the two days it has been uploaded. But most people will probably find it annoying. And there has always been something annoying with Starbow. I can not appeal to everyone in every way. This is a MOD that is played, loved and hated by a quite small group of people. It will probably remain like that until the end of time. Simply put, I wanted to give the upgraded trigger another try. If it turns out to screw the game up, I will likely remove it. As usual. Back and forth 4-ever . . - . .. . - . .- -. .-. -. - - .-.--.-.-. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
- The opponent can flank much more efficent. Why is this a good thing? Previously Dec used the argument that it now took skill to surround. You could also argue that now it doesn't take skill to flank. - The opponent can move in with few units and engage a part of the larger army to relative inflict high damage. True, and this comes down to giving players ways to cost efficiently deal with a large group of armies with a small group of army- I see two ways to accomplish this; 1) Strong defensive abilities with AOE (I think terran is fine in that regard with strong tanks, highground advantages, spider mines and new planetary - I don't understand the other races well enough to comment on them, but I am sure we can add/redesign abilities to make their defenders advantage stronger against deathballs if that is neccesary). 2) Make small group of units more efficient in an offensive way. This can be accomplished by giving units escape goats. Rift, dropships, reapers (fast unit), hellion (another fast unit) are examples of escape goats. The key is to give the opportunity for a small group of units to do some damage and then escape if the opponent puts the majority of his army to beat your small group. Here is a "creative suggestion". Give overlord drops an ability to "suck" zerg units within a radius of 5 into the overlord so you can better escape with your units after having dropped them. And there is and has always been something annoying with Starbow. I can not appeal to everyone in every way. The main problem I see with this change (gameplay entertainment wise aside) is that it makes Starbow a BW clone, and since most players will still prefer sc2bw/bw over Starbow this makes the target group extremely small. I believe the optimal "strategy" is to make minimize the "transition costs" for people who aren't satifised with the deathballness of Sc2 - There are a alot of players like that out here, and its just about marketing Starbow correctly to get them to try and keep playing the game. Personally I do not find this system annoying. Imagine this; When you want to kite with your bio units, the units that is behind the front units needs to move back before the units in the fronnt can move. This makes you feel like your playing with 2-second delay - I don't understand how this cannot be annoying if you are used to playing with the Sc2 AI (?). Or when you click with your hellions and you expect them to move in a certain way, and then they take a different path that you expect them, which messes up your micro - Unless you enjoy learnings things just for the sake of learnings things, how can this not be annoying? | ||
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Kabel
Sweden1746 Posts
But be aware that it is a lose-lose situation. No matter what is added to the MOD, what happens to it, large groups of people will not like it. - This is either too much like BW, or too much NOT like BW. - There is too little new stuff, or too much new stuff. - There are too many SC2 mechanincs in it, or too few pure BW mechanincs. - The classic units are too classic and have nothing new to them, or they have something new to them which ruined them. - And so on Who is this MOD created for? To appeal to a as large audience as possible, or just let those who enjoy it have some fun? Yes, it would be cool if this was played by a lot of players. But it is not realistic for various reasons. When Starbow becomes boring, well.. then it is over. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
So I guess there are two types of strategies; 1) Make it a "BW-clon" 2) Make it the best possible game possible while making it very easy for newcomers to play/learn/understand the game. I think strategy 2 is the best way to accomplish the goal of making Starbow a succesful mod, and I think BW fans still can be satified if we manage to replicate the best parts of the BW metagame (for instance tvp mech - something that I believe already works pretty well). I still don't understand how I should be able to give recipe of improvments, because I don't know what the problem is? (remember; its not a problem in it self that units move efficiently in a clump - Its only a problem if a small group of units can't be cost efficient vs a big group of units). I can only relate to my own experiences and say terran works absolutely fine (and it will be awesome if reapers gets some utility late game that rewards micro and multitasking). But if you can adress why you are not satifised with protoss and zerg (why do those races feel to deathball'ish?) Please be specific and then I might be able to think of suggestions. | ||
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Archerofaiur
United States4101 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:39 Hider wrote: I don't think it is sustainable for Starbow if there will never be more than 20 active peopple playing the mod. Remember at some point even Dota started out with 20 people. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9407 Posts
On April 09 2013 07:50 Archerofaiur wrote: Remember at some point even Dota started out with 20 people. Thats exactly the point; Dota had a strategy to grow as it heavily differenaited itself from Wc3. Starbow as a BW clon will have a very difficult time getting more than 20 active players at the time (it is too small a niche). If I thought Starbow had potential as a BW-clon, then I would actually be willing my self to learn the new AI, but since I expect it will have <20 players then I see little point in actually investing a lot of time into learning something I find really annoying. | ||
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