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On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran  ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages  its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players...
youd be gold league if you played zerg
not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now
if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
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On September 14 2010 16:34 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone's going to read this, but these are the reasons these data may not mean a ton, and why large disparities in racial win rates are probably the rule rather than the exception when looked at over short periods of time:
Only a small number of players have a high probability of winning a tournament (and they have race loyalty) -- what this means is that even if races are evenly distributed among top players (more on that below), they aren't likely to be evenly distributed among winning players. It's statistically much more likely that one race will dominate the top dozen or so players than that the races will be evenly distributed among those players. That means wins will appear race-biased even if everything is balanced.
There is also evidence that players are intentionally steering clear of zerg. I think this is the big problem Blizzard has to face. Of course, the fact that there aren't many zerg players means that there aren't going to be a lot of zerg wins.
My point here is just that there are strong reasons to think that these data aren't very trustworthy, and that maybe people should stop talking about them. I don't think it would be possible to demonstrate mathematically that the distribution of wins is different from what you would expect given the problems I discuss above. Even if the stats were done, interpretation would be difficult.
As far as the underrepresentation of zerg, there are a few non-mutually exclusive possible causes I can think of:
1) Zerg is weak (we already know that if this is a problem, it's only an early-mid game problem. Zerg lategame is very powerful.
2) Zerg play is underdeveloped, making zerg appear weak, when really we just need to learn how to use them and what builds are safe. I have much respect for the current SC2 progamers, but the level of play is NOT the same as the level of play in BW e.g. -- we still have a lot to learn about build orders and there are still underused units
3) People feel like zerg is weak, when it's not
4) The bias is due to factors unrelated to the strength or apparent strength of zerg (i.e. due to random sampling of a small sample size).
Note that 2) and 3) are going to feedback into themselves, increasing the bias. Honestly, I think a little bit of all of this stuff is probably going on, but the real people who know are Blizzard, and they are already doing something about it. Until then my opinion is just that people should play the game and enjoy it, and pros should do whatever it takes to win, including switching races if it comes to it (and some players do seem to feel it's necessary).
This is a brilliant post, but I think most of the intellectuals reading the thread understand and acknowledge all of those things. However, Occam's Razor sort of leads one to believe that the most PROBABLE is reason 1. But admittedly, this is not proof.
The only real issue at hand is that zerg isn't winning. This is fact. "Why" is a much more difficult question to answer.
I would argue that the "why" doesn't matter as much as this question: "does blizzard really care a great deal about tournament finishes?"
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
Give it to him idrA!
For the Swarm!
I think I have a mancrush on you IdrA! And I'm talking about the dirty kind of mancrush...
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Nadal wins most tennis tournaments those days.
Thus tennis is imbalanced.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
I thought this was incredibly pretentious till I saw who wrote it. RIVALRY STARTING??!
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On September 14 2010 16:45 Crushgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke. I thought this was incredibly pretentious till I saw who wrote it. RIVALRY STARTING CONTINUING??!
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Thanks for the fix Tachion.
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Well said IdrA, anyway if u still think at this point Z is not a decent amount UP u r clearly A) Terran or 2) slow.
P.S. and no it's not because Z players all suck and T players r so much better etc etc.
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entertaining read but hardly anything new for a zerg player with 2 exceptions. Lalush seems to understand the problems with the current mechanics as his post aren't of the "nerf marauders to 30hp" cathegory. The other thing that really suprised me was Morrow hypocrisy, well easy money are easy money...
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
So I switch from terran to zerg. In 1.5 weeks Im as good zerg as I was terran, judging by the "world rank" graph on sc2 ranks (1100 points diamond). Anecdotal evidence is good amirite? Tbh I think most good terrans could do equally as well as zerg, obviously the argument will never be settled so all there is left to do is flame like you are a mid 20 basement nerd.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
Oh shit!
It has begun!
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This is very disheartening. 
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On September 14 2010 16:41 Crushgroove wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:34 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone's going to read this, but these are the reasons these data may not mean a ton, and why large disparities in racial win rates are probably the rule rather than the exception when looked at over short periods of time:
Only a small number of players have a high probability of winning a tournament (and they have race loyalty) -- what this means is that even if races are evenly distributed among top players (more on that below), they aren't likely to be evenly distributed among winning players. It's statistically much more likely that one race will dominate the top dozen or so players than that the races will be evenly distributed among those players. That means wins will appear race-biased even if everything is balanced.
There is also evidence that players are intentionally steering clear of zerg. I think this is the big problem Blizzard has to face. Of course, the fact that there aren't many zerg players means that there aren't going to be a lot of zerg wins.
My point here is just that there are strong reasons to think that these data aren't very trustworthy, and that maybe people should stop talking about them. I don't think it would be possible to demonstrate mathematically that the distribution of wins is different from what you would expect given the problems I discuss above. Even if the stats were done, interpretation would be difficult.
As far as the underrepresentation of zerg, there are a few non-mutually exclusive possible causes I can think of:
1) Zerg is weak (we already know that if this is a problem, it's only an early-mid game problem. Zerg lategame is very powerful.
2) Zerg play is underdeveloped, making zerg appear weak, when really we just need to learn how to use them and what builds are safe. I have much respect for the current SC2 progamers, but the level of play is NOT the same as the level of play in BW e.g. -- we still have a lot to learn about build orders and there are still underused units
3) People feel like zerg is weak, when it's not
4) The bias is due to factors unrelated to the strength or apparent strength of zerg (i.e. due to random sampling of a small sample size).
Note that 2) and 3) are going to feedback into themselves, increasing the bias. Honestly, I think a little bit of all of this stuff is probably going on, but the real people who know are Blizzard, and they are already doing something about it. Until then my opinion is just that people should play the game and enjoy it, and pros should do whatever it takes to win, including switching races if it comes to it (and some players do seem to feel it's necessary). This is a brilliant post, but I think most of the intellectuals reading the thread understand and acknowledge all of those things. However, Occam's Razor sort of leads one to believe that the most PROBABLE is reason 1. But admittedly, this is not proof. The only real issue at hand is that zerg isn't winning. This is fact. "Why" is a much more difficult question to answer. I would argue that the "why" doesn't matter as much as this question: "does blizzard really care a great deal about tournament finishes?"
yeah, all of what he said is completely true, however, that is only so if we look at pure data. anybody who plays zerg and anybody who doesn't play zerg and watches tvz games where the terran actually uses his brain doesn't need to have a phd to see that zerg is completely broken.
and anybody who has any clue about zerg whatsoever would stop saying things like :" it's possible that zerg play is underdeveloped". no it's not. unlike the other races we don't have that many possible openings, and everything that's possible has been tried out already. zerg early game play (early game is the zerg's problem) is about as developed as it will be one year from now (disregarding any balance patches which may switch things up, of course), I'd bet all of my worldly belongings on it in a heartbeat.
against protoss too btw. way too weak early game, way too strong late game.
and then concerning his speech about probability: yeah, it's pretty likely that a race is dominating, however, not to an extent that out of a large amount of people, only one or two zerg can keep up with the competition. also protoss is pretty underrepresented compared to terran. what we see in the OP is way out of range of normal variance, especially since it's been going on for a long time now (a few months is not a short timespan, not with that many people playing sc2 competitively).
I'm sorry dude, but there's just no point in bringing up these pseudo-reasonable points anymore. Zerg is fucked, that's as much of a fact as it can get. And only the most ignorant of people (or copper players) can even begin to say that it might be otherwise.
btw: sorry for saying "we" constantly. In my heart I'm still zerg despite having switched to protoss a while ago.
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On September 14 2010 11:35 LaLuSh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
well the sad part is that exactly that @Art_of_Kill forces terran to be the offender against zerg and toss while they always just have to defend.
because once u strike 200 psi and both have many expoes, zerg can remkae 50 roaches in 30 seconnds and toss can warpin units in 5 second while terran must build their units
in sc1 terran 200 psi was stronger than toss 200 psi but toss rebuilt faster, so after a battle toss had to rebuild and then wipe out terran
but in sc2 terran 200 psi is weaker and they rebuild alot slower in comparison to production facilities costs
thats why i hope they do something about this because in theory zerg and toss never has to attack the terran because they know they have an easy ride later game. so they can put larva max to half and that wouldnt change alot except for later game where u actually stop make units as z
its very shallow match up if u know lategame terran always lose. maybe u can balance it and say ok terran have to attack and that is balanced, sure but its not so interesting if we always see terran be the attacker. all races should be able to camp, timing attack and be somewhat equal in the late game, but its not like that at all with sc2 Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:06 MorroW wrote:i agree with every single thing OP said and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable. demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim On April 14 2010 17:19 3D.Strelok wrote:
In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet. u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule. if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic Show nested quote +On April 14 2010 23:21 MorroW wrote:On April 14 2010 23:15 Gretorp wrote:
in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units.
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it. and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape. 1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:01 DeMusliM wrote:
I can tell we just had a huge influx of protoss players join this thread and fail to see the point.
A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?).
And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease.
I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!). Show nested quote +On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote:On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote:
haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely. as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/ Show nested quote +On April 17 2010 09:26 MorroW wrote:
the goal is just to create a build that survives and puts up a good fight against anything toss does. just like siege expo in sc1.
if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought
the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters
im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd
so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese
im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>) LOL. Only reason I couldn't find more zerg whine is because morrow's post history mysteriously stops in around mid april. All the zerg whining took place in March and early April. Then roach armor and supply got nerfed along with 2x nerf of hydras and a bunch of other things. I only had to check 3 threads to find whine similar to zergs' whine though. I distinctly remember morrow doing lots of crying instead of just "playing the game", as is usually morrow's advice to zerg players nowadays. Protoss 1base vs Terran 1base is imbalanced =) You can't go raven ^^ "Need ways to FE safely". hahaha. Guess what, zerg needs ways to FE safely too!
i played more than fucking anyone in the 1st phase in europe afaik
your full of bullshit
and as soon as terran got op i said terran was op and as soon as toss was op (which they were like 1 week at some point of time in beta) i said they were op. uve been saying zerg is bad since day 1 and u been saying pvt is imba in broodwar back when i raped you
good job at digging up old posts, detective medal right there
Haypro inactive for 1-2 months afaik. when he did play he did great
Zpux just like haypro, went inactive, didnt see zpux play for months in a tour
orly hes been active like in phase 1 of beta, then inactive and coming back and forth
moman i dont know how much he plays. i guess i can give u this one. he deserved more wins
madrow not playing 6 hours a day thats for sure
darkforce ill give u this one aswell, he fights hard to improve
madfrog madfrog jumped in like what? in start of release? he fights hard now and deserve more wins but still he has not as much games or activity like i asked for
daboo who? sorry i dont know everyone so
aby same with this guy
horror ive seen horror play terran and toss in sc2, u sure hes zerg user?
Mondragon (when he plays) "when he plays" my question was which zerg users are as active as the top terrans which play hours every day, i think u misunderstood what i was talking about
lalush have no idea how much u play, didnt see u in a bracket as of late and never saw u in ladder
On September 14 2010 11:45 SichuanPanda wrote:
Win by race Terran - 51. Need i say more.....
Edit: MorroW will go the way he did in every other game he's played, a big name at the start, and then a year or two later after a meta-game shift and balance patches he'll disappear. I will give him one thing though he's great at finding glaring imbalances in games and exploiting them. A certain company would be wise to have him as an in-house balance tester.
why the hell would u think id dissapear?
last time i checked exploiting the game and using my race to the fullest is the best thing u can fucking do, so thank you man. its not about impressing ppl with cutsey builds, if 5rax reaper works then thats what im gonna do
id been highest up in the tvt level of play in foreigner scene and innovating most new styles. good job at talking bullshit lol. i wont be gone after the game is balanced thats for sure, the reason i played t in sc1 is because there is no harder thing than that. i play for the challenge not win some tournaments
i want the game to get balanced and ive been telling everyone that i want the new balance patch to come so ppl can stop complain so damn much about everything
do u think its fun to win with 5rax reaper over and over? new patch please tt
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On September 14 2010 17:02 MorroW wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 11:35 LaLuSh wrote:On April 11 2010 20:20 MorroW wrote:
well the sad part is that exactly that @Art_of_Kill forces terran to be the offender against zerg and toss while they always just have to defend.
because once u strike 200 psi and both have many expoes, zerg can remkae 50 roaches in 30 seconnds and toss can warpin units in 5 second while terran must build their units
in sc1 terran 200 psi was stronger than toss 200 psi but toss rebuilt faster, so after a battle toss had to rebuild and then wipe out terran
but in sc2 terran 200 psi is weaker and they rebuild alot slower in comparison to production facilities costs
thats why i hope they do something about this because in theory zerg and toss never has to attack the terran because they know they have an easy ride later game. so they can put larva max to half and that wouldnt change alot except for later game where u actually stop make units as z
its very shallow match up if u know lategame terran always lose. maybe u can balance it and say ok terran have to attack and that is balanced, sure but its not so interesting if we always see terran be the attacker. all races should be able to camp, timing attack and be somewhat equal in the late game, but its not like that at all with sc2 On April 14 2010 23:06 MorroW wrote:i agree with every single thing OP said and sorry i dont have any advise for u, i dont know a safe way to fe anymore. in patch5 and before i could rax fe then 6-7 i could marauder fe and now i cant fe. i cant do anything and ive tried everything just like u its not really just the early game, later game i feel like toss can simply get far better economy because his units r very cost effective and lategame is just ridiculous, if u reach that toss always wins the only way terran has been able to win this entire beta stage is through early game, as we r getting worse bio and stronger mech we are now in a position where we lose against everything rather than everything being viable. demuslim is one of the best terrans in the world and if he comes here and says this, its not just that he has been winning because he been spoiled wins by imba. terran has been worst race and we r getting changes but demuslim were one of few terrans who fought the odds of the mus. if u dont understand the level of play i suggest u to just agree with what he says and if u disagree i suggest u to be silent and accept ur the one whos missing something, not demuslim On April 14 2010 17:19 3D.Strelok wrote:
In TvP now it's like that: if you perfectly know what protoss does ( maphack is on) you stay on 50% chances to win. It turns onto who is better. And if you miss what protoss does you have almost no chances to win. I really want to think it's not imbalance but thing that terran didn't find counters yet. u cant really know what toss is doing early game, if u spend 50 on a scan to see what his doing (assuming he built every single tech building near the nexus including with gateways) sure u know what he do, but u cant stop it because u just lost ur mule. if u dont scan u end up in a scenario where either u get a game rolling ur toss rolls over u because he countered ur build and u had no idea whats coming. simply think its ignorant to say its a 50% chance to win in a mu and this is if u know what toss is doing, a good toss wont let u know that and remember toss ALWAYS knows what ur doing. they r the ones with maphack not us so ur scenario is very unrealistic On April 14 2010 23:21 MorroW wrote:On April 14 2010 23:15 Gretorp wrote:
in my experience, tvp has now become very very very boring. you go 4 rax to keep up with the protoss and stay on one base the entire game. tech appropriately such that you don't die to protoss tech since mass immortals and mass collossus are dealt with in 2 different gas/mineral routes(ghost and vikings). don't expand till you're about to run out of minerals, lift CC and expo when minerals start to run out. at end yo uwill still be on either 4 or 5 rax, a factory not producing anything, and a starport, interchanging its add on with the rax. if you go to expo anywhere during this phase, you lose positioning which you desperately need, and you are behind in units.
I've tried going mech pretty aggressively for the past week, and it is very hard to control gas when going mech. then i ran into a warp prism + 2 immortal and lol'ed at my defending tanks. and by lol'ed i mean QQed if u r 1base vs 1base he can make dts and force u to turn back, force u to build turrets and force u to waste at least 1 scan. u cant afford this on 1base and u cant get a raven either, u also cant really contain a toss with a turret and u cant assume hes going dt and get turrets every game. on top of that you also cant scout it. and as ur paying for all this shit just to survive he can expand and hes in a great shape. 1base vs 1base toss is stronger, its the truth On April 15 2010 02:01 DeMusliM wrote:
I can tell we just had a huge influx of protoss players join this thread and fail to see the point.
A terran HAS to make a heavy tier 1-1.5 army just to survive the gateway push - with bunkers the whole lot, pumping every resource he has into this. Meanwhile the protoss can easily expo and out resource the terran - this is the problem - that the terran cannot survive early without getting some kinda force together, while the protoss can can tech even, while pumping out 4 warpgates and immortals while the terrans later tech units make little difference - (Immortals counter all ground terran has, and HT's counter anything that counters the immortal - see the problem late game?).
And i'm not even talking about late game, the problem for terrans right now is surviving the early game without being too far behind mid-late. People who fail to see this are enjoying the easy life of 4 warpgate rushing terrans and winning with relative ease.
I spoke with several top protoss players on Europe who all agreed that the MU right now is very heavily favoured towards the protoss - and the only way they lose is if they make a big mistake micro/macro wise or don't scout (pretty hard not to scout with a obs!). On April 15 2010 02:02 MorroW wrote:On April 15 2010 01:44 deo.deo wrote:
haha, cant wait until the koreans really bite into the game. all those little whine threads will be shaken up completely. as it is now im pretty sure sc2 wont last in korea, why? koreans love hard games and sc2 doesnt qualify for that afaik :x On April 15 2010 01:54 Prozen wrote:
Have you guys tried going 4 Rax no gas/addons FE? You build only marines and you FE while you build about 3 bunkers to defend your nat. It's been very successful for me lately, haven't lost with it yet. (Top 10 Plat Protosses). The problem with the build though is that you HAVE to make sure the Protoss is going Immortals, otherwise he can just go Collosi and rape your army rofl. It doesn't work too well on maps with two chokepoints sadly, but it worked well fro me on maps like Steppes of War. this is basically how i was playing before patch 6 was out, it even raped colosus then the sad part atm is that it doesnt work now, sentry -2 dmg along with immortal and zea meatshield fucking hard rape this build or they can make fast colosus which also rape it. they can even go mass zea sentry and rape it too :/ On April 17 2010 09:26 MorroW wrote:
the goal is just to create a build that survives and puts up a good fight against anything toss does. just like siege expo in sc1.
if u stop a massgateway u will be ahead and win the game, its a simple thought
the proper way how a rts game should be is that a counter to a safe expo is to expo urself to catch up rather than having a bunch of "C&C db style rock paper scissor" hard counters
im not sure if my build or any tvp build for that matter can defend all cheese yet by "scout and respond rule" but i know its the best so far, since everything else has been failing terribly lately. just watch my reps vs nightend where i desperately tried to play my old 1rax fe xd
so if it now happens to be that u can counter cheese with this build, it doesnt mean pvt is impossible. it just means ur not gonna win easily by going same 1robo3warpgate every game. hopefully this is the first step to counter fe with fe rather than counter fe with rush. if both fe i guess it will turn out to be anyones game. but if terran cant fe then terran cant win because stuff like dts or sentry with force field are just so strong 1base vs 1base that they can let u expand while terran is locked in (5sentry 2immortal and 3 zealot is never ever gonna let u down the ramp). thats why its so important that we need a fe build thats safe against all cheese
im not gonna release any reps and its best if i dont talk about this any more for now because im still not sure how good it is really. but i can imagine it being really strong and ive never lost with it where i executed it correctly yet (im low rating tho). but ill keep u guys posted of my build works or not (as in straight up play, not luck based. not as in win or lose... "without meta game abuse" as nony would say :>) LOL. Only reason I couldn't find more zerg whine is because morrow's post history mysteriously stops in around mid april. All the zerg whining took place in March and early April. Then roach armor and supply got nerfed along with 2x nerf of hydras and a bunch of other things. I only had to check 3 threads to find whine similar to zergs' whine though. I distinctly remember morrow doing lots of crying instead of just "playing the game", as is usually morrow's advice to zerg players nowadays. Protoss 1base vs Terran 1base is imbalanced =) You can't go raven ^^ "Need ways to FE safely". hahaha. Guess what, zerg needs ways to FE safely too! i played more than fucking anyone in the 1st phase in europe afaik your full of bullshit and as soon as terran got op i said terran was op and as soon as toss was op (which they were like 1 week at some point of time in beta) i said they were op. uve been saying zerg is bad since day 1 and u been saying pvt is imba in broodwar back when i raped you good job at digging up old posts, detective medal right there
gotta give points to morrow here. he's been one of the few terrans who actually realize what's going on and said it out loud, as opposed to the other terrans who are all like :"I don't know" or " I don't know except for a few maps where terran is overpowered".
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Although the stats are pretty depressing, you can't argue against the fact that the skill level of the players playing the races do heavily favor what's going on here. If I asked someone to name 3 top zerg players, in the U.S/EU, it'd be pretty hard for them to do.
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this thread is incredible in many aspects
1- you can find gold level whine / gold level "learn to play"
2- you can find pro level whine / pro level "learn to play"
3- you can find nonames / pronames
4- you can find deep-quality game analysis offers suggestions / you can find comments on the analysis that are written without having the analysis read
5- you can find good players KO's good players for good
6- you can find hypocrisy at its finest.
and the list goes on. I love this thread.
PS: lalush, I love you. for the analysis of the situation instead of pure whine.
and I think for the first time I've collected some terran tears in my life when you quoted posts from history
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Ok, now I'm looking forward to a 2v2 with Idra and Lalush against Morrow and his second. 
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EPT
