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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran  ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages  its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
 Terran and their delusions of grandeur...
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Well a good indicator also could be that even Dimaga (who is usually considered as the Zerg skill beast in the foreigner world) has not been really able to win much recently. 0-2 vs Hasuobs, 0-2 vs. WhiteRa (both in Take´s Cup), 1-2 vs Tarson in the Zotac quarter finals, 3-4 vs Kiwikaki, 1-3 vs TLO in the SCcastCup and so forth. I mean he plays about three or four Tourneys per week but usually he just reaches the quarter-/semi-finals.
Sen (who is also commonly used as a reference for a Zerg that overcomes the imbalance) lost to Bratok in the Go4sc2 Quarterfinals aswell
Madfrog as a Progamer (thus I assume he plays a lot) did not even qualify for IEM (losing to Aures) in the Euroqualifier whereas 5 Swedish Terrans succeeded. Of course Morrow is a gifted player and so is Sjow, but are players like Merz or Jimpo that much superior to the likes of Haypro, Lalush or Madfrog?
Of course the statistics could have looked a bit better if Mondragon would play 6 hours a day, if Ret would not have retired for a few months or if Kolll would be active (btw. Morrow, do you know if Kolll intends to play SC2 seriously in the forseeable future?) but the same argument can be applied for the other races too, a player líke Androide would be easily another top-Terran etc.
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On September 14 2010 12:58 Tachion wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... It seems odd that you keep mentioning Dimaga when he was so adamant about Terran being better. Show nested quote +I do not just play Starcraft 2 for fun, it is my JOB. The image and the popularity of the team depend on my results, and so I must do whatever is necessary to make my team the best. Unfortunately, in the present balance situation regarding Zerg, I cannot achieve good results for my team. Blizzard's inaction only further fuels the fire.
Because of these reasons, unless there is at least an announcement of the new patch after GOM TV Global Starcraft II League and IEM Global Challenge Gamescom, I am going to switch from my precious Zerg to the more successful Terran. He had a change of heart after he had a good performance in the IEM, but even monster Zergs like him know that something is wrong.
Many people will agree with the assessment that "something is wrong", but the big question is: What is wrong? Is it the units, the macro mechanics or the maps? With the next patch Blizzard is fiddling around with the first, but I have a feeling that those changes wont help "fixing the problem".
Lets look at what they are changing:
1. Zealots, Reapers (and Warp Gates) get their build time (cooldown) adjusted to "fix" rushes. Could you achieve the same thing with different methods? Yes. Simply increasing the size of the maps to increase scouting & rush distances. Especially the Protoss changes wont matter in late game, because you simply build one additional Warp Gate to get the same productivity. That is a small delay in the beginning, but will end with the same amount of units. The same is true for Reapers, since they are very very very rarely used past the beginning of a game.
2. Siege Tank damage is partially given a bonus type and reduced against non-armored. Will that change the often-whined-about TvZ? Not really, because Zerglings and Banelings still get one-shotted and once the Zerg has Hydras out the Terran will probably have a lot of tanks anyway. Roaches and Ultralisks are armored, so nothing changes for them.
So what is the real problem? The map size. The really good exaggeration for this was Incineration Zone. That map was sooo imbalanced even Blizzard had to take it out of the mappool. Sadly it also shows the direction in which Blizzard intends to go with maps: small and action packed. This doesnt work for Zerg, who need some time to develop their resources first before they can devote enough resources to producing an army. At that time however the Zealots and Reapers are already harrassing their base and so the Zerg is screwed from the get go and this cascades down into a lot of disadvantages. A lot of good Zerg players show us that once they get their economy any matchup is fine and they can win, but getting there is frigging hard. So the thing which Blizzard needs to change is NOT the units, but the map size to give Zerg just enough time to prepare.
On September 14 2010 12:58 Tachion wrote:Imbalance issues aside, there absolutely needs to be more incentive to play Zerg. I love watching SC2, probably even more than I like playing it, and seeing results like this just makes me sad :[ watching 15 TvT's in a tournament is not fun, or entertaining. This is so so bad for the e-sports scene. If heavy Terran tournaments keep happening then fewer and fewer people are going to be watching, which means less sponsors. Make the zerg race more fun to play, make them more competitive with the other races if that's what it takes, but with the recent trend I fear for the appeal of SC2 to viewers. Check this thread out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150965. It's a rather small sample size due to not many people voting, but Zerg seems to be the most fun to watch, and Terran the least favorite.
Lets face it ... most people like to watch Zerg for two reasons: a. Banelings afford good entertainment when they blow up lots of stuff in green acid (bigger explosions sell more tickets for a movie very often) and b. Zerg players tend to be the "Drama Queens" with lots of rages about imbalance.
Just look above at how IdrA is attacking another player directly in this thread again instead of arguing the point. Artosis is another favorite, who even kinda brags about raging when he loses during the GOM casts. So these two have become "fan favorites" just like lots of people are buying tabloid papers for the big scandal headlines and they dont really care if what is said contains any truths. That isnt a good reason to be a fan of someone IMO. Raging when you lose is only acceptable in one condition: When you rage about yourself doing stupid mistakes. In any other case its bad manners or even a case for a psychiatrist.
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Madfrog didn't jump.
He was playing during the beta with a different nickname.
Just to clarify.
For idrA saying "gold league" he doesn't actually mean gold league.
He is trying to make a point. That's his way. May be a bad way but that's who he is.
and I've seen idra pointing the issue in a detailed way many times in his interviews (written&spoken)
Yes he is a tempered one, but I disagree with idea of him "not pointing the issues only attacking other players" , since beta he was the one who spoke the most about the issues -either real or unreal issues-
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Morrow is like one of the few to publicly admit that a race is imbalanced in any patch whether it's his own or others :p
Everyone should admit it like MorroW when their race is imbalanced and yes Protoss was also imbalanced (in Beta don't know about Zerg haven't played that long in Beta 4/5 months) but currently it seems Terran is just the easier race TO WIN. I wonder what kind of effect 1.1 will have overall in all leagues but as of right now Terran simply has it easier than the rest due to the dynamic builds it has.
Zerg has few options so far to counter the dynamic builds T has but hopefully we get some new innovative builds soon that can open up new possibliities for the zerg so it can actually be more exciting overall in matchups (and for PvP).
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Oh my god you kids need to shut it. Even if everyone acknowledges imbalance and terrans jump over their own shadows for it, we would still be in the same situation as we are right now!
Is anyone of you doing any balance changes? No? Then stop poisoning your mind and TeamLiquid with it and take that list for what it fucking is. The list is only as meaningful as the tournaments behind it.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
Hyperboles ftw!
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
and so the idralisk has spoken!
but i would love to see a rematch of IEM final. where the Idralisk players terran. and the Morrownator plays zerg.
back on topic, well actually the topic has been hijacked by morrow and idra so ima just look forward to that lovely arguement
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On September 14 2010 17:09 berzerger wrote:
this thread is incredible in many aspects
1- you can find gold level whine / gold level "learn to play"
2- you can find pro level whine / pro level "learn to play"
3- you can find nonames / pronames
4- you can find deep-quality game analysis offers suggestions / you can find commentors on the analysis without even fully reading it
5- you can find good players KO's good players for good
6- you can find hypocrisy at its finest.
and the list goes on. I love this thread.
PS: lalush, I love you. for the analysis of the situation instead of pure whine.
and I think for the first time I've collected some terran tears in my life when you quoted posts from history
Couldn't have said it better. This is one of the best thread's I've read on TL in years, usually there're one or two decent posts and thread of mediocrity. This is a thread of win with some sporadic mediocrity thrown in for good measure.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:
youd be gold league if you played zerg
not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now
if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
xD
Really it's almost sickening when people try to defend Terran in it's current state. MorroW or not. You REALLY, REALLY see no problems with mules? Ha... it's laughable. Should I bring up the Demuslim game from TakE's recent Homestory cup?
+ Show Spoiler +Demuslim comes back from a 30 to 4 SCV deficit with the power of mules, or something close to those numbers.
This should be impossible in high level play. Mules are retarded, end of story.
First and foremost MULES need a damn cooldown. You forgot to cast it? Oh no worries, just drop two...
What they hell were they thinking? You should have to be on top of your energy, just like Zerg do. I can't inject my hatchery twice so why can terran drop mules like candy? Chronoboost can be casted twice, but at this this can involve some sort of strategy, not some mindless mule dropping.
The main problem is clearly having to cut drones to survive early game. Also, sometimes people look at supplies and note the zerg is 110ish, while the Terran is 90. Working as intended??? No, 40++ Of that zerg supply is useless drones/queens, while the Terran has a moving ball of death ready to drop motha fucking bombs. Zerg is supposed to have overwhelming units, when logically late game their army is the smallest, and the most fragile.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
Although "gold" is an exaggeration, IdrA's right.
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So does anyone takes bets on when this thread will be locked?
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On September 14 2010 17:02 heishe wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:41 Crushgroove wrote:On September 14 2010 16:34 GagnarTheUnruly wrote:
I'm not sure if anyone's going to read this, but these are the reasons these data may not mean a ton, and why large disparities in racial win rates are probably the rule rather than the exception when looked at over short periods of time:
Only a small number of players have a high probability of winning a tournament (and they have race loyalty) -- what this means is that even if races are evenly distributed among top players (more on that below), they aren't likely to be evenly distributed among winning players. It's statistically much more likely that one race will dominate the top dozen or so players than that the races will be evenly distributed among those players. That means wins will appear race-biased even if everything is balanced.
There is also evidence that players are intentionally steering clear of zerg. I think this is the big problem Blizzard has to face. Of course, the fact that there aren't many zerg players means that there aren't going to be a lot of zerg wins.
My point here is just that there are strong reasons to think that these data aren't very trustworthy, and that maybe people should stop talking about them. I don't think it would be possible to demonstrate mathematically that the distribution of wins is different from what you would expect given the problems I discuss above. Even if the stats were done, interpretation would be difficult.
As far as the underrepresentation of zerg, there are a few non-mutually exclusive possible causes I can think of:
1) Zerg is weak (we already know that if this is a problem, it's only an early-mid game problem. Zerg lategame is very powerful.
2) Zerg play is underdeveloped, making zerg appear weak, when really we just need to learn how to use them and what builds are safe. I have much respect for the current SC2 progamers, but the level of play is NOT the same as the level of play in BW e.g. -- we still have a lot to learn about build orders and there are still underused units
3) People feel like zerg is weak, when it's not
4) The bias is due to factors unrelated to the strength or apparent strength of zerg (i.e. due to random sampling of a small sample size).
Note that 2) and 3) are going to feedback into themselves, increasing the bias. Honestly, I think a little bit of all of this stuff is probably going on, but the real people who know are Blizzard, and they are already doing something about it. Until then my opinion is just that people should play the game and enjoy it, and pros should do whatever it takes to win, including switching races if it comes to it (and some players do seem to feel it's necessary). This is a brilliant post, but I think most of the intellectuals reading the thread understand and acknowledge all of those things. However, Occam's Razor sort of leads one to believe that the most PROBABLE is reason 1. But admittedly, this is not proof. The only real issue at hand is that zerg isn't winning. This is fact. "Why" is a much more difficult question to answer. I would argue that the "why" doesn't matter as much as this question: "does blizzard really care a great deal about tournament finishes?" and anybody who has any clue about zerg whatsoever would stop saying things like :" it's possible that zerg play is underdeveloped". no it's not. unlike the other races we don't have that many possible openings, and everything that's possible has been tried out already. zerg early game play (early game is the zerg's problem) is about as developed as it will be one year from now (disregarding any balance patches which may switch things up, of course), I'd bet all of my worldly belongings on it in a heartbeat.
Yeah, I think that's a really good point. The second part, actually, not the first part! I think it's pretty much a given that things are still underdeveloped for ALL the races -- I mean, we still have a lot to learn about this game -- but certainly you're right that for the first 5 min. there are only so many options, and we probably have had time to explore all of those.
I'm sorry dude, but there's just no point in bringing up these pseudo-reasonable points anymore. Zerg is fucked, that's as much of a fact as it can get. And only the most ignorant of people (or copper players) can even begin to say that it might be otherwise.
Here's the point: We see a pattern, but there are a LOT of reasons that pattern could exist. People should at least be aware of the alternative hypotheses before jumping on the 'Terran is IMBA bandwagon.' And I gues more to the point, I think we should rely on reason rather than statistics or anecdotes to determine whether terran is balanced, because the statistics are hard to interpret and because anecdotal evidence can be misleading and can lead to circular thinking and closed minds.
Looking past the pro-caliber nerd rage in this post, I think the IEM tournament is a good illustration of the phenomenon. IdrA knew what MorroW was doing and couldn't stop it, and he's obviously one of the best SC2 zerg in the world. I remember someone remarking that Dimaga could stopped the 5 rax reaper. If it turns out that that build really is unstoppable, then it's pretty easy to recognize that there is a problem. I don't fault MorroW for doing it, although I can see why IdrA would be frustrated... but if there's a problem then Blizzard needs to fix it either with unit changes or a new map. If, however, the build can be countered, then we can just file it away under a laundry list of super powerful all-ins that only work if they take the opponent off guard, and we can move on to the next problem.
But I think what's really helpful are posts like the one Lalush made. I remember the first time I saw a 1-1-1 build and I thought -- there's no way this is gonna work, and then it did. And that's why the matchup is broken. Terran can literally do whatever they want. Protoss is screwed if they try to get that much tech that quickly, and zerg never has that kind of flexibility.
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On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke.
LOL FUCK YEAHHH. He keeps saying he deserves to be the best cuz he plays 6 hours a day rofl!. If all it took was 6 hours a day then idra or checkprime would be the best players by far. 6 hours is all you need for terran probably cuz you only need to practice tvt. I am a big fanny of yours IdrA when game is balance be sure to not let them win any money, then tell them how to play terran!
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On September 14 2010 17:38 Fantistic wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke. Although "gold" is an exaggeration, IdrA's right.
Although I don't agree with Morrows post, Idra's was completely wrong. He would be better than gold (I would know since I am in gold as zerg). But if any terran deserves to win competitions, whom other than Morrow? He wouldn't win as many, but still plenty imo.
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On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:
its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Really, it's amazing that a well known player like yourself would say something that blatantly wrong. Dimaga, the best Zerg player by far? Just about everyone recognizes that IdrA and Cool are superior. To say that they aren't even close to Dimaga is nuts.
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On September 14 2010 17:24 Jayson X wrote:
Oh my god you kids need to shut it. Even if everyone acknowledges imbalance and terrans jump over their own shadows for it, we would still be in the same situation as we are right now!
Is anyone of you doing any balance changes? No? Then stop poisoning your mind and TeamLiquid with it and take that list for what it fucking is. The list is only as meaningful as the tournaments behind it.
if noone whines and rages, Blizzard won't change anything. They are incapable of making good changes and quite frankly, good games, if there wasn't a community that's constantly raging.
Look at the following evidence:
- At first, SC2 looked like a vacation in Candyland and some designs like the Tank just looked ridiculous --> ppl raged, so blizzard changed it.
- Ppl thought SC2 is gonna be too easy to macro with MBS and auto-mining, so ppl raged, whined and some even made suggestions --> that's how the macro-abilities like Chrono-boost were born; they were suggestions of the community!
- Ppl are raging about lack of chat-channels --> Blizz already announced they're gonna implement them in the future
- Almost all changes in SC2 of the past were made cuz the ppl who wanted them raged the most.
And it's the same thing with balance-changes: Blizzard doesn't have a clue how to balance this game and they wouldn't even acknowledge that there are problems if the community wouldn't rage beyond any boundaries of what's right and wrong...
So; keep on raging if you want SC2 to improve!
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well i prefer someone like idra who just says its freaking imbalanced and that it should be fixed asap over some guy like madfrog who gets asked at the iem if he thinks its imblanced and he just says, he doesnt want to whine. this is just poor.
i mean, its not like me and you coming home playing some rounds of starcraft.
its their job.
its like your boss says you have to do the same job and bring the same results as your colleages but with way worse equipment.
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On September 14 2010 17:46 ensis wrote:
well i prefer someone like idra who just says its freaking imbalanced and that it should be fixed asap over some guy like madfrog who gets asked at the iem if he thinks its imblanced and he just says, he doesnt want to whine. this is just poor.
i mean, its not like me and you coming home playing some rounds of starcraft.
its their job.
its like your boss says you have to do the same job and bring the same results as your colleages but with way worse equipment.
Some ppl just don't have as huge balls as IdrA! ^^'
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On September 14 2010 17:43 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:
its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Really, it's amazing that a well known player like yourself would say something that blatantly wrong. Dimaga, the best Zerg player by far? Just about everyone recognizes that IdrA and Cool are superior. To say that they aren't even close to Dimaga is nuts.
I think he means compared to foreign zergs... and he's absolutely right. He 's the only zerg with results to show for it in the foreign scene.
I just replied because the I found the 'you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about' part is funny.
I mean, it's assumed he meant non korean zergs since there's no koreans in this NA/EU list.
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EPT
