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ok and one last time for all those saying pvt is balanced. it is not. the reason but is a quite complex one. lets take a marine-banshee build for example. lets assume you really want to be safe. you need like 2 obs every important spot. because viking + scan = dead observer = dead eco. then you need antiair. you either go stalkers, canons or phoenices. stalkers arent very mobile, canons do a good job, but yeah , think the word wast STATIC. the best counter is phoenices cause they also can compete with vikings. but, you need a starport and they are gasheavy. so, that was at least 200-300 gas for obs. but, wtf? there pops out a raven. lets assume your obs survived the raven. well, perhaps is he going for cloaked banshees afterwards. better let my defense up, damn cannot check his frigging army with that raven. but no banshees came, he only had ravens + marines and steamrolled you. because you had to fight with half your army. i hope you know where im getting. you can win vs. a terran, if you know exactly what comes when. and another thing that keeps pvt up is storm. storm is cool, because if you have like 10 storms, it doesnt matter how much supply he has, it just doesnt matter, as long as you can forcefield him or he just doestn move. by the time, terran uses all tricks given. he is not harrassable due to sensor and turret. he has some pretty strong army, bio is only defeatable with mass-destruction and the sickest harrassment possibilities ever. the problem is just, terran is so hard to scout with observers. turrets
edit: above is only ONE example, there are quite a few more. and i want to point out again. it takes skill, to execute a proper terran build, it takes multitasking to drop and macro (though terran has the easiest macro by far) and bio is not unbeatable but beating good ghost micro is almost impossible. you can defeat a terran, but i think the trend of protoss doing all in 1 base plays shows that midgame is just too cruel, even for pros. there is a reason why huk is said to only play some massunit cheeses and he wins most of toss.
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On September 14 2010 11:23 Gomas wrote: I have to agree with Morrow. Name me some zergs which are on same level as Dimaga or Idra IN ZVZ (!). None? Great.
Now remember all these TvTs u watched in go4scs and ZOTACs? Yeah the ones u all complain about. Tarson winning with Cloud. Morrow losing to Demuslim. Strelok winning with SjoW. I could go on. There is at least 30 names which can easily compete with eachother, when it comes to T.
All that shows, is that there is more good T players atm.
Tbh, i have not yet seen a single zerg apart from Idra (not even dimaga), with macro so perfect like morrows. There is tons of queing going on. Mineral floats etc, all the time. While the Ts (especially morrow) have perfect thought-out builds with 0 quening going on, perfect expansion and depot timings etc.
I have yet to see a zerg buildorder as refined as morrows 5 rax reaper or his TvP 2rax FE. For me, this is the main reason the zerg lose, not imbalance.
Wrong judgement. We don't see much ZvZ because almost all zergs get eliminated by terrans and protoss players in early stages. Only few survive till quarter finals. Whereas there are many terrans advancing to quarters hence more chance of seeing TvT.
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Wow, interesting thread. I never really liked Idra's attitude, but I just lost a ton of respect for Morrow. These stats say a lot, 5 rax reaper requires micro, but it's not some deep strategy. Abuse the imba while you can Morrow. Idra fighting...
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On September 14 2010 18:24 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 18:19 toadstool wrote:On September 14 2010 18:07 Lefnui wrote:On September 14 2010 17:52 toadstool wrote:On September 14 2010 17:43 Lefnui wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote: its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Really, it's amazing that a well known player like yourself would say something that blatantly wrong. Dimaga, the best Zerg player by far? Just about everyone recognizes that IdrA and Cool are superior. To say that they aren't even close to Dimaga is nuts. I think he means compared to foreign zergs... and he's absolutely right. He 's the only zerg with results to show for it in the foreign scene. I just replied because the I found the 'you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about' part is funny. I mean, it's assumed he meant non korean zergs since there's no koreans in this NA/EU list. That isn't what he said. If he meant it, then he should have said that. And it certainly isn't implied since Koreans are included in the list. There's nothing "funny" about it, what I said is completely accurate. Anyone who thinks Dimaga is the best Zerg player, and especially "by far", has no clue what they're talking about. Also, IdrA is a foreigner. It doesn't matter whether you go to Korea, join a pro team or anything. If you are not Korean then you are a foreigner. It's incredible that someone would use Dimaga as an example of why Zerg isn't weak. Dimaga is the perfect example of just the opposite. He used desperate all-in strategies during Day9's tournament because he thought the game was so imbalanced that he wouldn't be able to win more standard games. Then he entertains the thought of switching to Terran because of how weak Zerg is. Oh I forget, this is the internet. Everything must be stated obviously, or else dumb people wont understand. You're the one who is being dumb about this. As I told you, he didn't say it and it isn't implied because Koreans are included in the list. And IdrA is a foreigner who is better than Dimaga.
I can't believe you're keeping up with this. This list obviously includes every Korean tournament, and Koreans are crappy because out of 84 tournaments, Tester only won one.
And Dimaga is obviously the best zerg player in the world, he obviously won 3 gold medals. Obvious.
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If the main reason zerg might be doing bad is that people avoid it due to how abusable it is/less attractive than the other races then blizzard needs to change zerg, and if that change is balance wise then so be it. I'm pretty sure blizzard has said having 20-25% or w/e playing zerg is not what they want.
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Russian Federation82 Posts
Ret's been playing for only a few weeks and he aleady looks better than alot of these Zergs that people seem to think should be winning tournaments.
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On September 14 2010 18:34 JamieDukes wrote: Ret's been playing for only a few weeks and he aleady looks better than alot of these Zergs that people seem to think should be winning tournaments.
one more excellent zerg-player won't balance the game though...
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Russian Federation82 Posts
jop but all this talk of how random Zergs should win tournaments is dumb
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working as intended, move along
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On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote: who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality.
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On September 14 2010 18:53 TreK wrote: i play terran, working as intended, move along
Most of you just skip to the end without reading any pages first, you should just head back to page 13 and read the comments by Lalush. (Specifically the post in the spoiler below) I really just don't understand how anyone can disagree with that and go on to say that everything is fine. His posts describe the issue perfectly.
+ Show Spoiler +Perfection is very hard to achieve when the matchup involves such a high degree of guessing for zerg. Even when you scout a certain tech path from the terran, you still cannot be sure what is coming. Yesterday for example (one out of a thousand examples), I scouted a very fast tech starport tech lab switch from brat_ok in a tournament game, and I began making spore crawlers and queens while massing drones. I was sure I was going to come out far ahead. What happens next? He only uses the starport to build 1 banshee. Switches his strat around instantly, builds 1 medivac and 1 thor, drops it on my cliff, completely shuts down mining and easily takes out my expansion hatchery.
There is no way a zerg can account for all these possibilities at the same time. Every terran is unique. Every terran has got their own specialized (and often retarded) transition. Banshee doesn't have to mean banshee. 2 rax doesn't have to mean aggressive infantry build. It might as well mean a nonsensical delayed 2 or 1 port banshee with cloak.
You have all these idiot terrans scoring easy instant wins vs zergs everywhere, because even if you scout their production buildings, half of the time you've still got no fucking clue what they're doing. You scout a barrack constantly producing marines and a starport without addons? Maybe he'll use it for 1 viking and then medivacs. Maybe he'll use it for a fast medivac dropping 8 marines straight into your base. Maybe he's the kind of terran that built another rax in his base and waits for 2 medivacs before dropping you. Maybe he's the kind of retarded terran that waits for so long, that eventually you start making drones again, and in flies 3medivacs fully loaded with units. Sometimes they make a medivac and don't even use it for anything, they just expand and pretend it's a logical strategy.
You make drones and go for the early spire vs the 1 medivac 8 marine drop? You'll take sick damage. You start making units too late vs the 2 medivac drop and even hint at making the spire? You die. You start making units too early vs the 3 medivac drop instead of making the spire, and then suddenly think the coast is clear and proceed into making a round of drones because the drop never seems to come? You die.
You make too many units vs the nonsensical terran that went a 1-1-1 build into an 11-minute mark expand with medivacs and lots of marines before expanding but didn't even drop you ? You die from mining 600 less minerals per minute every subsequent minute.
Even when watching Sen's stream - who I consider to be 20x better than me and a complete monster ZvT - you see him losing instantly to noob terrans after overdroning vs a 3rax or 2rax/hellion all-in, or making too many units vs a faked aggression into fast expand build, or upgrading ling speed before lair and subsequently dying to 2port banshee without even having a fighting chance.
The main reason you see so many zergs getting eliminated so early, is because you have to have sick amount of LUCK to beat 5-6 terrans in a row. It doesn't matter how good and how skilled you are. Beating that many terrans in a row will require more luck than it will require skill.
The point is, there is too much of an element of randomness for zerg in the matchup depending on which tech path they opt for. And it cannot be fixed by simply "scouting better". The difference in win rate from playing a terran ranked #60 as opposed to a terran ranked #5 isn't that great. There's still the ~20% of games where you instantly lose due to a build order/tech path loss, no matter how good/bad your terran opponent is.
Then there are the truly good terrans. The ones of equal skill to you. The ones who'll win at least 50% of the games that reach beyond the "zerg guesses wrong instantly loses" phase.
The win ratio against those terrans won't ever be 50% for zergs. Much like the scrub terrans, the good terrans too will instantly win about ~20% of their games on pure build order errors from zerg. If they win half of the rest of games that puts them at 60% vs the zergs.
For a good terran facing a scrub zerg. There's perhaps a 1% chance of a build order loss. Again, number pulled out of my ass, but I should really think it's single digit, and amongst the lower single digits. You don't see morrow, brat_ok or demuslim losing to scrub zergs, EVER.
TvP, they might lose a higher percentage of games against no name protosses. But not nearly as high as zergs vs terran and protoss.
So what you end up with (poker analogy) is top zergs having to fight their way through 5-6 top pocket pair vs lower pocket pair preflop all-ins without getting drawn out one single time! And of course a couple of other key hands that actually reach the flop, turn and river (normal games where the zerg had some influence on the outcome and didn't instantly lose).
This post was written as a rant from start from finish. Forgive me if it's very incoherent.
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On September 14 2010 17:19 Rabiator wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 12:58 Tachion wrote:Imbalance issues aside, there absolutely needs to be more incentive to play Zerg. I love watching SC2, probably even more than I like playing it, and seeing results like this just makes me sad :[ watching 15 TvT's in a tournament is not fun, or entertaining. This is so so bad for the e-sports scene. If heavy Terran tournaments keep happening then fewer and fewer people are going to be watching, which means less sponsors. Make the zerg race more fun to play, make them more competitive with the other races if that's what it takes, but with the recent trend I fear for the appeal of SC2 to viewers. Check this thread out http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=150965. It's a rather small sample size due to not many people voting, but Zerg seems to be the most fun to watch, and Terran the least favorite. Lets face it ... most people like to watch Zerg for two reasons: a. Banelings afford good entertainment when they blow up lots of stuff in green acid (bigger explosions sell more tickets for a movie very often) and b. Zerg players tend to be the "Drama Queens" with lots of rages about imbalance. Just look above at how IdrA is attacking another player directly in this thread again instead of arguing the point. Artosis is another favorite, who even kinda brags about raging when he loses during the GOM casts. So these two have become "fan favorites" just like lots of people are buying tabloid papers for the big scandal headlines and they dont really care if what is said contains any truths. That isnt a good reason to be a fan of someone IMO. Raging when you lose is only acceptable in one condition: When you rage about yourself doing stupid mistakes. In any other case its bad manners or even a case for a psychiatrist.
Oh come on. People are crazy about watching Zerg's like Check, Sen, Cool, & Dimaga. They don't rage, and it goes much further than just seeing them use banelings. Even if Idra didn't rage, I'm confident that people would still like to see him play. Why? Because Zerg has very few high level players(ones who get results) to look up to. As for why Terrans and Protoss like to watch Zergs play I couldn't tell you.
Sen's stream got posted in the morning on TL, and by the afternoon he had near 2k viewers, more than any other stream I've seen on TL. Considering that so few players play Zerg, there is something about these high level zergs that really attracts people of all races.
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if god descended upon the earth and said terran is a little imba the terran players would just resond in the same way they do to any threads similar to this one.
"pfffffftt that bitch needs to L2P" "sweet sweet zerg tears" "u mad?"
or any other retarded internet lingo that makes you guys the badasses that you are.
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On September 14 2010 18:32 toadstool wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 18:24 Lefnui wrote:On September 14 2010 18:19 toadstool wrote:On September 14 2010 18:07 Lefnui wrote:On September 14 2010 17:52 toadstool wrote:On September 14 2010 17:43 Lefnui wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote: its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about. Really, it's amazing that a well known player like yourself would say something that blatantly wrong. Dimaga, the best Zerg player by far? Just about everyone recognizes that IdrA and Cool are superior. To say that they aren't even close to Dimaga is nuts. I think he means compared to foreign zergs... and he's absolutely right. He 's the only zerg with results to show for it in the foreign scene. I just replied because the I found the 'you have absolutely no idea what you're talking about' part is funny. I mean, it's assumed he meant non korean zergs since there's no koreans in this NA/EU list. That isn't what he said. If he meant it, then he should have said that. And it certainly isn't implied since Koreans are included in the list. There's nothing "funny" about it, what I said is completely accurate. Anyone who thinks Dimaga is the best Zerg player, and especially "by far", has no clue what they're talking about. Also, IdrA is a foreigner. It doesn't matter whether you go to Korea, join a pro team or anything. If you are not Korean then you are a foreigner. It's incredible that someone would use Dimaga as an example of why Zerg isn't weak. Dimaga is the perfect example of just the opposite. He used desperate all-in strategies during Day9's tournament because he thought the game was so imbalanced that he wouldn't be able to win more standard games. Then he entertains the thought of switching to Terran because of how weak Zerg is. Oh I forget, this is the internet. Everything must be stated obviously, or else dumb people wont understand. You're the one who is being dumb about this. As I told you, he didn't say it and it isn't implied because Koreans are included in the list. And IdrA is a foreigner who is better than Dimaga. I can't believe you're keeping up with this. This list obviously includes every Korean tournament, and Koreans are crappy because out of 84 tournaments, Tester only won one. And Dimaga is obviously the best zerg player in the world, he obviously won 3 gold medals. Obvious. *facepalm*
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1st: Thanks OP for the effort, nice and informative post!
2nd: Its mid september now, where is the patch?
3rd: Adding to Lalushs point: Ive seen a game in some not-so-important tournament where Morrow lost on Scrap Station vs some not-so-good Protoss, because he was able to pull some proxy pylon stuff off with a little trickery. It rarely happens, but ive also seen him drop a game vs that Italian protoss (capoch?) on blistering, which of course is imba. Sorry if i dont credit those 2 protoss players enough, but they certainly arent on the top of the list in the OP either. I have never seen this happen vs a Zerg though.
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On September 14 2010 18:22 Lefnui wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 18:05 Deadlyfish wrote:On September 14 2010 16:41 IdrA wrote:On September 14 2010 10:22 MorroW wrote:On September 14 2010 08:15 Raiznhell wrote:this clearly shows that MorroW is OP not terran  ah thank you, im happy i could find at least 1 comment like this on 14 pages  its annoying me so much that everyone talk so much about imbalance we have no zerg players in general. who used to win as zerg when zerg was OP? like dimaga, who else ? haypro and zpux? i cant even name any other zergs that were on top of their game... we simply have few zergs participating in each tour and i think thats a bigger factor than the actual imbalance i almost wanna switch to zerg just to show it is possible, its not a coincidence dimaga is by far best zerg atm, he simply has alot more skills than the other zergs. i pity these lower level players that blame their losses on imbalance when dimaga still manages to win. we have 30 terrans who can fight nicely on the top in tvt but who can compete in zvz? the skill gap is huge there and so few players... youd be gold league if you played zerg not just as a switch, if youd been playing zerg since the beginning youd still be gold right now if you honestly think that you and 90% of the other terrans who are currently doing well deserve to win tournaments you're a joke. People blaming their losses on anything but themselves are really annoying. So you're annoyed by people blaming losses caused by imbalance on imbalance? That sounds more like a personal problem to me. What a prince. What does that even mean?
How are you gonna get better if you think that everytime you lose it's because the game is unbalanced?
I'm pretty sure Day9 also talked about this in one of his dailies.
Just pathetic to see "world class players" whine about imbalance.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
Dimaga hasn't won anything since earlier days of beta when game wasn't in the state it's in now (few patches ago). Same goes for Haypro. Morrow your claims about their not being enough zergs practicing hard is totally silly
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Maybe the reason why there are so many good terran players is that its the easiest race to play, its certainly the easiest to macro with (you can essentially click your control groups and build all the units you need while still microing, the same is true for zerg but zerg NEED to return home to spawn larva). Not to mention cued up drops and attacks, the easiest and most effective harrass that any race can perform.
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On September 14 2010 19:23 HuHEN wrote: Maybe the reason why there are so many good terran players is that its the easiest race to play, its certainly the easiest to macro with (you can essentially click your control groups and build all the units you need while still microing, the same is true for zerg but zerg NEED to return home to spawn larva). Not to mention cued up drops and attacks, the easiest and most effective harrass that any race can perform.
Whats stopping zerg players from que dropping multiple locations?
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PF's, tanks, sensor towers, missile turrets
And the big difference is that 6 marauders can snipe a hatch/tech of Z in almost no time.
If I drop 6 roaches in your main, are you really gonna be scared? I get maybe like 1 depot, 1 rax at most and the drop is over.
And also terran's generally don't really need to expand as hard as a zerg has to do.
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