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On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible  Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much...
Even you?! Come on, dont be ridiculous, noone can just switch race and beat the best players in mirrors a week after -.-
I hope IdrA switches, so we can see what happens! Sadly, chances of that are very small...
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On September 14 2010 20:15 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... I dont think IdrA can get any better than he is right now, even if he switches race. IdrA likes heavy macro, no cheese and very defensive the first 10-20 mins of the game, so Terran wouldnt fit him very well. Zerg and IdrA is the perfect match. I think Dimaga could play terran quite well though, but not enough to beat the top ones, i think that would require alot more practice.
actually that's pretty much how you have to play zerg unless Terran gets greedy and doesn't wall. Pretty much any aggressive play by Zerg early relies on Terran playing greedy (not walling). It's true though that a lot of terran don't wall so it can work, it just is not reliable in any way.
Really list a decent aggressive play that zerg can do in SC2 with any reliability in ZvT. There is no muta harass in SC2, missile turrets basically nullify them, roaches can be outranged by proper building placement, lings.... wall ins. They have no options besides going a crazy all in and hoping the opponent hasn't learned barracks/factory wall ins.
It's very obvious to any Terran how dominate / easy to understand the matchup is, because you can literally force zerg into a maximum of like 2-3 choices. Know how many options zerg has if you go five rax reaper? It takes about 20 games played to see pretty much everything zerg can possibly do. Anyone that plays terran, unless retarded, understands TvZ better than any other matchup.
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On September 14 2010 20:22 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... Even you?! Come on, dont be ridiculous, noone can just switch race and beat the best players in mirrors a week after -.- I hope IdrA switches, so we can see what happens! Sadly, chances of that are very small...
You know that he used to be Terran in BW right?
I don't think it's that hard to transition from BW Terran to sc2 Terran with the knowledge of T's strong points from a Zerg point of view. So a week or so is probably realistic since he did beat some BW progamers after several days worth of practicing. In his state doing that for sc2 with a race he's already very familiar with isn't too unthinkable
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On September 14 2010 20:22 dacthehork wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 20:15 Deadlyfish wrote:On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... I dont think IdrA can get any better than he is right now, even if he switches race. IdrA likes heavy macro, no cheese and very defensive the first 10-20 mins of the game, so Terran wouldnt fit him very well. Zerg and IdrA is the perfect match. I think Dimaga could play terran quite well though, but not enough to beat the top ones, i think that would require alot more practice. actually that's pretty much how you have to play zerg unless Terran gets greedy and doesn't wall. Pretty much any aggressive play by Zerg early relies on Terran playing greedy (not walling). It's true though that a lot of terran don't wall so it can work, it just is not reliable in any way. Really list a decent aggressive play that zerg can do in SC2 with any reliability in ZvT. There is no muta harass in SC2, missile turrets basically nullify them, roaches can be outranged by proper building placement, lings.... wall ins. They have no options besides going a crazy all in and hoping the opponent hasn't learned barracks/factory wall ins. It's very obvious to any Terran how dominate / easy to understand the matchup is, because you can literally force zerg into a maximum of like 2-3 choices. Know how many options zerg has if you go five rax reaper? It takes about 20 games played to see pretty much everything zerg can possibly do. Anyone that plays terran, unless retarded, understands TvZ better than any other matchup.
Alot of the Korean zergs are very aggresive and i've seen alot of cool 1 base builds. I've never seen IdrA win a game that was less than 20mins long i think, it's really rare. But who knows, maybe he could get good at doing 1 base builds and cheesing abit.
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I really wish people could deal with this issue without resorting to forms of BM. All zerg players are not lazy, they are not bad. It's not lack of nydus worms, 'creativity' or staying at tier 1 too long, or because Zerg players are 'slower to learn their race'. These are really just insults directed at zerg players, intended or not.
Zerg don't well in tournaments, as Lalush has said because you need to get lucky. There are so many ways to insta-lose at zerg that making your way through an entire tournament field is very, very difficult for most mortals. This is a very difficult point to argue against, without resorting to the above forms of BM.
That said, this doesn't mean that MorroW isn't a fantastic player, and deserve his wins. He's played the game Blizzard gave us to the best of his ability, and has achieved some great things, you can't blame a person for playing a game well. The problem is with the game itself, and the fact it doesn't allow zerg players to shine (or fail) as it does the other races.
Zerg players aren't complaining because they want Terran players to all be miserable, (okay well maybe some are, but they shouldn't) but rather because they want what all of us want - a balanced game where every match up is interesting and enjoyable, both for the players and spectators.
High-level players need to be allowed to voice their feelings on the state of the game, as without this Blizzard has little direction for further balance patches, and SC2 like all games needs further balance patches, and we'll probably see them for the next six years.
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On September 14 2010 20:38 Deadlyfish wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 20:22 dacthehork wrote:On September 14 2010 20:15 Deadlyfish wrote:On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... I dont think IdrA can get any better than he is right now, even if he switches race. IdrA likes heavy macro, no cheese and very defensive the first 10-20 mins of the game, so Terran wouldnt fit him very well. Zerg and IdrA is the perfect match. I think Dimaga could play terran quite well though, but not enough to beat the top ones, i think that would require alot more practice. actually that's pretty much how you have to play zerg unless Terran gets greedy and doesn't wall. Pretty much any aggressive play by Zerg early relies on Terran playing greedy (not walling). It's true though that a lot of terran don't wall so it can work, it just is not reliable in any way. Really list a decent aggressive play that zerg can do in SC2 with any reliability in ZvT. There is no muta harass in SC2, missile turrets basically nullify them, roaches can be outranged by proper building placement, lings.... wall ins. They have no options besides going a crazy all in and hoping the opponent hasn't learned barracks/factory wall ins. It's very obvious to any Terran how dominate / easy to understand the matchup is, because you can literally force zerg into a maximum of like 2-3 choices. Know how many options zerg has if you go five rax reaper? It takes about 20 games played to see pretty much everything zerg can possibly do. Anyone that plays terran, unless retarded, understands TvZ better than any other matchup. Alot of the Korean zergs are very aggresive and i've seen alot of cool 1 base builds. I've never seen IdrA win a game that was less than 20mins long i think, it's really rare. But who knows, maybe he could get good at doing 1 base builds and cheesing abit.
?
Zenio's game today going 1 base muta, opponent made no turrets or a single anti air unit. Not to mention he could have died anytime to proper reaper pressure.
Zergling - Melee
Baneling - try busting down a barracks
Roach - Too short of range to shoot past any decent wall
Muta - missile turrets
every aggressive zerg attack can be easily countered with proper walling, not to mention try being aggressive versus a 5 rax reaper pressure... I'm about 99% sure any aggressive/army orientated zerg is easily and cost effectively countered with proper sim city, and terran can easily build a CC in base and float it when needed.
There is nothing close to as effective as 5 rax reaper for Zerg, allowing intense pressure and a stockpiling of minerals, not to mention with micro counters every single possible unit zerg can have until post lair.
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Netherlands4511 Posts
On September 14 2010 20:22 BaaL` wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 19:54 Liquid`Ret wrote:On September 14 2010 19:51 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 19:37 Pekkz wrote:On September 14 2010 18:58 CScythe wrote:On September 14 2010 17:55 me_viet wrote:
who wants to see match between Idra/LaLush as Terran and Morrow as Zerg?
There's no point, because there is literally no way Morrow could win, under any circumstances. It's just not in this realm of reality. I would take it even further, and say that I even think idra could take Morrow in TvT if you gave him few days to practice. Could be wrong, but its totally possible Lol you are delusional. Are you seriously saying that Idra would be able to beat the worlds best terrans with a few days practice, people that have been practiced TvT heavily for months now? Also Idra's playing style does not suit terran good at all, so he would have to change a lot of the fundamentals that he uses as zerg. As much as you people believe it, he isn't God. In a week he for sure could, actually. He won't do it though because of GSL but after this GSL I wouldnt be too surprised if IdrA switched to T. Patch won't change much... Even you?! Come on, dont be ridiculous, noone can just switch race and beat the best players in mirrors a week after -.- I hope IdrA switches, so we can see what happens! Sadly, chances of that are very small...
?!?! Idra has played plenty of terran throughout beta not to mention 8 years of terran in SC:BW I don't think he would have any problems at all if he massed games as terrans for a week or so, infact i'd believe he'd be the best TvZ and TvP player in the world real fast, TvT not sure but up there
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@Ret: If you`re reading and posting in the thread anyway could you give us your opinion about a) the current state of balance and b) some reasons why Zerg has so much problems especially in tourneys?
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lalush whines that he got cliffdropped on temple cause he saw a starport with addon which couldnt be a tankdrop when he was going massqueen , spore and god knows what tech.
But i agree that zerg has some problems atm, imo creep is too defensive, and larger and better maps are very much needed , maybe if zerg could keep their speed everywhere (speedlings needs nerfed then tho) and instead regen or something else on creep,
Too many expansions closeby for terran to camp aswell imo, soem fixes to that would change alot i think, and remove temple ( there is a reason that people stopped playing that map when balance-problems with that map became more evident
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On September 14 2010 20:53 TreK wrote:
lalush whines that he got cliffdropped on temple cause he saw a starport with addon which couldnt be a tankdrop when he was going massqueen , spore and god knows what tech
have you ever tried to stop a cliff drop on temple? you have to have a super fast lair, and build sunkens to slow it down to even have a chance of stopping it. drop doesnt even work because the upgrade takes more than two full minutes to complete and 300/300 which is a huge investment early game often before you scout the drop happening, so you forced to fight marine/turret/medivac with pure muta most of the time.
they are the reason that I open 1base muta on temple, not because its a very good build, but because its 'decent' and there's nothing else that can reliably stop cliff drops
especially if you scout a different tech pattern and counter it correctly, i can see how it would be frustrating.
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wow at statistics. I made the right decision when switched from random to terran.
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On September 14 2010 21:00 Cheerio wrote:
wow at statistics. I made the right decision when switched from random to terran.
Right in what sense?
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On September 14 2010 21:04 nam nam wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 21:00 Cheerio wrote:
wow at statistics. I made the right decision when switched from random to terran. Right in what sense?
I think the sense that he enjoys winning. I know I do.
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On September 14 2010 21:00 Butigroove wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 20:53 TreK wrote:
lalush whines that he got cliffdropped on temple cause he saw a starport with addon which couldnt be a tankdrop when he was going massqueen , spore and god knows what tech have you ever tried to stop a cliff drop on temple? you have to have a super fast lair, and build sunkens to slow it down to even have a chance of stopping it. drop doesnt even work because the upgrade takes more than two full minutes to complete and 300/300 which is a huge investment early game often before you scout the drop happening, so you forced to fight marine/turret/medivac with pure muta most of the time. they are the reason that I open 1base muta on temple, not because its a very good build, but because its 'decent' and there's nothing else that can reliably stop cliff drops
yea temple isnt a very good map, but how can you whine that u scout a starport and thinks he will go banshee and you die on a cliffdrop, starport = drop..nomatter what addon there is on it
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Iraq1230 Posts
i havent been afking at all, its just really hard to win lots of games in a row as z in tours because of the many different strats that u encounter. each terran has his own trademark strat and same can be said about protoss but not in the same degree. the map pool doesnt really help either.
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On September 14 2010 21:05 kataa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 14 2010 21:04 nam nam wrote:On September 14 2010 21:00 Cheerio wrote:
wow at statistics. I made the right decision when switched from random to terran. Right in what sense? I think the sense that he enjoys winning. I know I do.
Of course. But it feels much better beating a terran as zerg than playing as terran beating a zerg. You might have a higher ranking as terran, but who freaking cares. If you enjoy playing terran more, all the more power to you, but I fail to see how it is the "right" decision to play the strongest race by default (as he implied with his post).
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Wow, I see some high level terrans bashing zergs for whining. I remember top terrans whining back in early phase of beta and nobody accused them for that. You should really stop it and give some constructive criticism.
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lol at the Terran defense force
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LEAVE TERRAN ALONE *cries*
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On September 14 2010 21:09 Liquid`HayprO wrote:
i havent been afking at all, its just really hard to win lots of games in a row as z in tours because of the many different strats that u encounter. each terran has his own trademark strat and same can be said about protoss but not in the same degree. the map pool doesnt really help either.
qoute for truth
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EPT
