EPTI'm leaning town on Lazer.
Noir Mini Mafia: Chapter 1 - Page 16
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
I'm leaning town on Lazer. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
I am not yet clear on what happened in the last 5 hours or so, while I have read it, more than once and at 16 pages total the thread is not huge by any stretch. so... | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
Lazer: I unvoted because I was going to sleep, I don't leave votes hanging on someone I'm not entirely convinced about in an instant majority game. I already said that's why I didn't like what CC did, so why would I do the exact same thing he did? In any case, I haven't read what's happened since I left that deeply yet, since I'm at work but I'll do my best in writing whenever I get a break, and naturally once I get home. | ||
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Ghor
Russian Federation140 Posts
On April 03 2013 07:01 Hopeless1der wrote: What do you believe my motive to be? Trying to put myself in your shoes, I'd suspect (Scum-Hopeless) of being disruptive and/or trying to save (Scum-Sylencia). by the way, inherent in reading two people as scum is everyone else is town. ghor wonders, why you say you saving scum sylencia (cause you probably want to imply your motive is not being disruptive). ghor very curious why say scum sylencia. not simply sylencia, or town sylencia. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
To preface this, I noticed several things about cheesecake I found suspicious. The first was that he seemed to purposely lack reading comprehension at his convenience and the second is that he never really put pressure on anyone but was more willing to call a few people scummy. The third is that I feel is behavior and attitude purposely attempted to disrupt a good town environment. I will approach this in sections One On April 03 2013 00:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Jesus you guys are active while I'm asleep. ##Unvote I don't think we should lynch Risk today. How I got +2 to my pressure vote is beyond me. This is the first thing that tipped me off. To anyone who read the thread it's obvious. CC's pressure vote was mere coincidence and had nothing to do with mine or VE's votes on risknuke. We supplied reasoning in response to a conversation between the three of us. CC voted more or less for fun. In regards to Sylencia's vote, cool -- Good to see you're paying attention. Nothing was happening so I slapped down a vote on Risk. 20 minutes passed and nothing from him so I went to bed. Now we have shit to work with. What alarmed me the most was RoL's vote. He explains it here. This seems a far cry to think someone is scum. Oh, it looked like he was waiting for someone to sheep the Kenpachi tell... really? I'm not a fan "it looked like he was doing something potentially scummy" instead of "yeah, this is scummy" This is the next part that struck me. My words are being purposely twisted here. I said it that it appeared Risk.Nuke was looking for someone to pick up the slack. I didn't say it looked like he was doing it. There is a giant difference between the two statements. I expressed that I believed that risk was trying to make someone else push a bad lynch over a stupid tell. At no point did I express any sort of doubt, or notion of whim which CC clearly tries to interject here. I can't clearly read a thing Axle posts, at least Ghor I understand... On April 02 2013 22:32 Lazermonkey wrote: I'd actually not talk about my (potential)scum read just yet. I want a certain interaction to be happening first. Most probebly, that will occour later today. Lazer I want you to answer this question. Why do you use the parenthetical (potential)? How is somebody your potential scumread... scum have potential scumreads, town just have scumreads or town reads. Were you just waiting for somebody to slip up so you could call them out?[/QUOTE] Lastly the stab at Axle is unnecesary. I made a remark earlier about him and Ghor but since then Axle has made sense and stopped being a clown and I have developed a sense of enjoyment from Ghor's posts. The point just serves to generate hostility towards these players. Two On April 03 2013 01:14 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Hopeless... At this point in time risk had 3 votes on him. You kinda threw some shit at him and called him scummy. What was your intention with this post? On April 03 2013 01:38 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: It's that type of post I hate, Hopeless. I call it a Clarity. Clarity_nl did that in a game as scum, it was like he was bolstering a case without actually committing. I think that's what you were doing, prodding people to vote with no committal. And look, you can back out of it easy :D How do the intentions behind voting sylencia not match with a scumread on risk.nuke? Both of them could be scum, according to him? On April 03 2013 02:36 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Ghor please explain that shit because that would be the definition of deflecting pressure. Syl didn't talk much about scumreads (risk) but instead talked about other people. The quoted posts all illustrate where CC varies from taking a semi strong view on a player, to calling another few players suspicious. However in none of these posts did he ever go from trying to make a point and follow through with the pressure. At this point in the game CC has removed his vote and is just idling around without ever actually providing thoughts hes willing to follow through on. Three I pointed out earlier how he needlessly attacked Axle, and took a little jab at Ghur and we see it again in this post here: On April 03 2013 01:17 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Posts that have "Ghor" at the top of them. His posts are not actually that bad apart from the formatting and they are even a bit entertaining. However it is super easy to generate hostility to a player who is not speaking in any easy to interpret manner because less people are likely to actually read the posts that Ghur puts out. That part that we have to look at here is what purpose it serves. You can say that I was belligerent towards VE early on, but it served a purpose. I aimed to start discussion. Both of his attacks on Ghur/Axle do nothing to stimulate discussion and serve to just disrupt a town environment that was fairly productive. Conclusion Mr. Cheesecake does not want to contribute, purposely uses strawman arguments by misinterpreting posts, and while posting criticisms of players he never truly pushes someone, and seems to just be looking for a lynch to get behind. When you couple that behavior with pointless attacks on easy targets it makes him an excellent lynch candidate for Day 1. unvote: risk.nuke Vote: Mr. Cheesecake | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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strongandbig
United States4858 Posts
STRONG COUNT risk.nuke ( 0): VisceraEyes ( 0 ): Sylencia ( 2 ): Mr. Cheesecake ( 1 ): Ghor ( 1 ): Hopeless1der ( 2 ): VisceraEyes, risk.nuke Not Voting ( 3 ): AxleGreaser, Mr. Cheesecake, Sylencia With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. This is instant majority lynch. If you see a mistake please notify us. | ||
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Mr. Cheesecake
United States3756 Posts
##Vote: Hopeless1der Via stuff I said before. He scum. This Sylencia business is bad -- Lazermonkey, look me in the eye and tell me Hopeless isn't scummier than Syl -.- In fact Lazer, why are you completely ignoring a Hopeless lynch all together? It's like you haven't even looked at him. I challenge you, son ---> specifically why shouldn't we lynch Hopeless today? | ||
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Ghor
Russian Federation140 Posts
If risk town, Cheesecake could keep vote on risk, agree on cases. Por ush easy lynch. If risk scum, unlikely Cheesecake early vote scumbuddy in instant majority.maybe crazy play. That connection based, maybe bad. but not think CC scum based on gut. Ghor think Sylencia become more scummy, he always delay contribution. Many excuse, no push for direction. No pressure when Cheesecake here. Only justify himself.Ask others if they have question. Sylencia goal survive, not hunt scum. Ghor think sylencia better lynch than risk or hopeless, cause ghor conflict read between two, maybe they opposite alignment, not think D1 bus. want wait, see how play. Lynch sylencia first. | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
one of the propositions, it is just cold logic. If we take the player List, I can cut in two in a way that is interesting to me. Cheesecake, VisceraEyes, RebirthOfLegend and Risk.nuke. are in one (pool A). if I leave myself out (as i have read my PM) that leaves Sylencia, LazerMonkey, Hopeless, and Ghor in (pool B) So, if both you(the reader) and I had to guess out of pool A & B who scum would nk.... I think we would reach the same conclusion. (It is also even true if you take yourself out and put me in pool B) I am a contrarian bastard, all else being equal, anything scum wants I don't. Sorry guys, unless we have an actual significant reason, and I don't consider the cases that have been put on risk.nuke and more recently cheescake a significant reason, then Lynching into the same pool as scum will nk a Townie from seems silly. If scum want what i consider one of the players with better/longer track records dead, then scum can god damn kill them themselves. Basically a significant part of why (if i get a choice) I will choose to lynch out of pool B is what I regard as holes in all the logic I have seen put against members of Pool A. But worse the holes are at times (mainly?) from other members of pool A. As such I have the expectation I will be posting things about what happened between Cheescakes pressure vote http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18177222 and My first post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18177952 basically the analysis is going to be a little pointless (sorry) as what I wind up with is meh/whatever, but it is the mehness of that that justifies me lynching into pool B. Also as once the Lynch goes down there is silent night, and a chance either someone I discuss (or really unlikely me?) will die, I would like to have my view of those events on the table. I see them differently, to the participants. As stated it does not paint any one of them red, if you are one of Cheesecake, VisceraEyes, RebirthOfLegend and Risk.nuke. and you wish to clarify the towny intentions of/behind your actions, AKA walk us through your thinking, please do. Finally note one rather useful thing the whole risk.nuke wagon did was it parked all of the pool A players, on or under a wagon, and left space for the lurkers to come out and play. Hence it was in some sense a good thing, even if risk.nuke was never a lot scummy. My next and immediate task is to decide if i want to 'vote to Lynch', Hopeless, Sylencia, Lazer or Ghor. | ||
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risk.nuke
Sweden2825 Posts
Hopeless is obvious scum and has pretty much given up by now. This is not how he plays as town. And Ghor's post are not hard to read. If you disregard the fact that he speaks in third person and often don't use capital letters they're actually very simple to read and even efficiently phrased. Sylencia. Who do you want to kill? | ||
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Ghor
Russian Federation140 Posts
ve want hopeless, not sylencia. risk want hopeless. not say anything about sylencia. ghor waiting for risk to say something, but he not.ghor need risk opinion for decide. ghor also see hopeless attack me when i attack sylencia.and hopeless say he either disruptive or he scum defending scum sylencia. ghor see strange lexical choice, strange explaining of motivation. wait for hopeless to explain. sylencia only defend himself, no interact with scumread, no push. Only busy. we at important point da | ||
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Ghor
Russian Federation140 Posts
ghor kill hopeless, people wait for sylencia to answer. ghor want hammer. and sickle. da. ##Unvote ##hopeless1der | ||
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
On April 03 2013 14:34 Ghor wrote: ghor actually decide to give risk townread for now.he not lurky, he sound better lately. ghor kill hopeless, people wait for sylencia to answer. ghor want hammer. and sickle. da. ##Unvote #-#hopeless1der ATTENTION THREAD hopeless1der is at L-1 If you vote NOW for hopeless the day ends... do not vote right now. Do NOT LOL hammer. I was coming here to vote for Hopeless.... to put him at L-1, but as it would be now the intention to hammer vote.... IMO need slightly better reasons, as I also need to rule out Syl and Lazer. (RL life means I have to cook tea, and stuff... so I cant be quick) basically I think people ought start getting their affairs in order.... Hopeless You say that you are town... I think you game is about to end.... What help can you give town? Some nice you will be sorry when you lynch me thing... ok? | ||
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Sylencia
Australia1057 Posts
On April 03 2013 02:23 Mr. Cheesecake wrote: Breaking it down: > Ghor calls out Syl for deflecting pressure off Risk. >Hopeless calls out Ghor for believing they (both syl+risk) are both the scumteam and not just voting Risk instead of bringing up a new candidate. >Hopeless pushes Ghor for this. >Hopeless then asserts that Ghor and Risk are the scumteam. ^ Logic is so messy. If Hopeless believed Risk was scum -> why not just lynch him, do what you advocated and not switch targets? Instead, he decides to fling shit at Risk but not vote him, and then vote Ghor when he thinks Ghor / Risk scumteam. This reasoning here though is also why I'm so confused by Ghor's arguments and vote against me. He says I'm deflecting from risk, suggesting I'm trying to take pressure off him (and at the time onto you) and since that in his eyes makes him scum, would imply that he sees my defense of risk makes risk scum too. However, rather than voting for risk we have a vote on a new candidate instead. This doesn't make sense to me, and yet the same thing happens with Hopeless. On April 03 2013 13:14 Ghor wrote: Ghor think Sylencia become more scummy, he always delay contribution. Many excuse, no push for direction. No pressure when Cheesecake here. Only justify himself.Ask others if they have question. Sylencia goal survive, not hunt scum. Delaying contributions? Have you not read what I posted earlier about when I do post and when I don't? On April 03 2013 03:42 Lazermonkey wrote: Sylencia So the reason I didn't want to out my scum read earlier was twofold 1. I wanted a little more basis for my accusations. His entrance into the game was scummy but could just have been a result of him beeing busy rather than scum. 2. I didn't have enough time to write a decent case. Sylencias first 2 posts said absolutely nothing of anything. He then posts a seemingly long post but all it really contains 2 reads, the rest was stuff like calling risk wierd but no conclusion about his alignment. In this post he calls CC scum, VE town, and then proceeds to vote CC. Now it gets interesting! What does he do with this scum read? Jack shit! Instead he goes into this drawn out argument with Ghor about Ghor's case on him. Why do this? Why is he not chasing his scum read instead of defending himself against 1 single vote which isn't threatening at all. Why doesn't he try to convince us that CC is scum? Why does he go fromToWITHOUT CC even posting in between??? And then goesStill without CC saying jack shit? Well I'll tell you folks, because he is scum! ##Vote: Sylencia First 2 posts were going to lead somewhere as I had intended to have a deeper conversation regarding the voting power and whatnot, but then work got busier and I completely lost the train of thought the next time I looked at the thread. Your case against my vote on CC is also fairly meaningless, during the entire time I had my vote on him, CC wasn't around. The amount I had to go off on him was limited, and so you were saying I should be stretching my imaginations to see what's so scummy about one-liner #2? Why would I not talk to others and get a better idea of where they are at? This leads on into the argument with Ghor, and I defend myself because I'm being accused of being scum. Is that not something you'd do as town? Instead, you let them run all over you while you try to push a weak case on someone else? We're not playing 8v1, even if I had thought that CC was scum that's no reason to stop looking at others. As for taking off my vote, I think I explained that earlier this afternoon. Risk: As for who I want to kill, it'd be moreso Ghor than Hopeless, but they both have the same base logic behind them: X accuses Y is scum because of their actions with regards to risk, and thus they both had thoughts of risk+Y being scumteam, yet they both refuse to vote risk for some reason. Now Ghor has suddenly done a 180 on risk saying he's town based on activity (...) and chooses to jump ship to Hopeless. So pretty much, I'm willing to hammer Hopeless here, but if it's town I still see this as looking horrible on Ghor. Not that he wasn't looking horrible to me anyways. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373946 (mafia LVIII) http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=392955 (dessert mini) To be fair, I don't see a clear diference between Hopeless play in those games and this game. This obviously doesn't make Hopless town but I really don't see how you are voting him over Sylencia at this point. And reading the thread doesn't exactly help me... Axle: I have no idea why you think hopeless is scum. Risk: You reasons for voting Hopeless is partly meta and partly the fact that he isn't scum hunting. The meta part I disagree with and the scum hunting part is something that Sylencia does far worse at. Also, why do you continously avoid taking a stance on Sylencia despite promising to do so? CC: You are voting hopeless for poor logic but guess what? That isn't alignment indicative. VE and Ghor I think have decent reasons to be on him atm. The reason I didn't say anything about this earlier is because I wanted Hopeless to defend himself rather than me do it for him, but since we are one vote away from killing him atm, my strategy has indeed failed. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
Also, how did CC become town,suddenly? -.- | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
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AxleGreaser
Australia1154 Posts
 What has hopeless1der done this game, and is it consistent with a scummy motivation. TLDR: Yes. Were done intention to hammer the lynch on Hopless1der Suggestions on what time you dont want him hammered before welcome... Is there anything anyone wants to say before we enter silent night and you perhaps die? In particular are there any people who might be nk targets that wish to speak before they die? pool A... That means You + Show Spoiler [an actual case] + is there anything that is not consistent with scum Hopeless? Policy talk asks Ghor about language issues He makes 1 prod at the risk wagon. (has 1 out 2 valid points) but does not Vote (it is at L-2... ?) so perhaps thats a choice. (yes he hunted risk as scum,(found 1 scummy point) see later post for why risk might well not be...) As town: Personally if it is VEs and RoLs wagon, I also want to see why they are pushing it as at that point in the game I don't at this time know if they are town. So yeah chucking fuel on someone elses wagon, is a bit scummy. So even though he wants long day.. presumably to catch _other_ scum... what is his apparent prime focus... He then asks Ghor about risk.nuke, and votes him to pressure him into replying, but even though he is hunting scum is is supposedly be, like Syl, concerned somewhat about the possibility of hammering when Hopless gets an answer from Ghor the vote, that he is concerned about, stays parked on Ghor... because.... he doesn't care? Having said I think he's a good choice for lynch. at 1.32 admitedly not that long later, but it is only when pushed, he puts his vote on risk... Now personally I have some sympathy for the view of not putting risk at L-1 earlier where one actual accident ends the day. Indeed I think he should not have so rapidly gone from 1 to 3 votes... My problem is the posting and voting seems to be following path of least resistance, like whatever is needed to get people to look elsewhere or just get the lynch to happen. If scum is lucky or good in instant majority lynching they don't need to have any votes on any wagons... especially if the front runner is a mislynch. You can fan it and throw petrol on it but there is no need to actually vote it. When asked why Ghor rejecting Hopelesses dsicovery of a scum slip (by risk) as a scum slip, is a scummy thing for Ghor to do, Hopless claims that is Ghor somehow sweeping it under the rug. I find that little odd... I find that if there is some disagreement like whether or not something is scum slip.. as town that attracts my attention... after all if one of them is making up scum slips out of whole cloth, then I need to think why they'd make that mistake. One reason scum make mistakes like that is they are always reaching for arguments to show things they know not to be true. Town can make overreaching claims too, but I find it tends to be a scummy thing to do. And then it just gets silly.... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18181435 when hopeless finds 3rd scum in the game... personally if you find some hole in my reasoning... first I am embarrased, and second since I am playing to win... I want to fix my error. Hopelesses reasoning that doubting his scum slip is scum slip makes the doubter scum leads to the conclusion there are 3 scum. Ergo the logic is faulty. Does hopeless want correct logic? Nope. (BTW I think it not scum slip too I must be scum as well that makes it 4 scum in 9 player game... Oh nos were at Lylo?) Does hopless want to go back and find out what that error means and correct it? See earlier when I stuffed up and asked a couple of stupid pointless questions. I just flat out said oops. I said it so no one would be distracted by the error. Care to Guess why, I care about the thread having truthful information? While he says “I think risk is scummy but didn't want the day to end that soon.” presumably that is so as to hunt other scum... but basically a summary of Hopeless1der's scum hunting is.... Looking around for someone else who wants to lynch risk... His new scum read Ghor, was found because he disgreed with one part of a post Hopeless made against risk. When he discovers multiple people think the slip was not slip and that Ghors point was right... They're all scum All up my actual position is I think Hopeless is the most likely person I see to flip scum Intention to hammer Hopeless1der Caveat: I will also now consider some meta + Show Spoiler [meta] + here is Hopeless challenging palmer Logic. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17407538 This is hopeless making read that allows for the kind of player he is considering http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17409484 That seems little disparate with his tolerance for Ghor... who is admittedly perhaps more challenging than Palmar. However no it does not really seem like Towny Hopeless from LVIII to me. @LAZER http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18187577 As you played and think the meta is similar Would you care to outline examples where Hopeless is reactive, like i find him in this game or examples where he is so interested in what other people are voting. examples of him commenting (throwing fuel) on wagons ... or any explanation of what he wanted the day to be long so that he could accomplish? What was he doing today? FYI: No I wont be hammering soon or abruptly... We have a long time to spin our wheels and line up all our ducks. I have several long posts I want to make that I have not yet written. I want to put in the thread my best understanding of what happened when the risk wagon started, and why I was not all yipee lets lynch that scum.. there were and are issues with that wagon. Also unless i hear from the people who i think might get nk'd that they are done posting for the day, that will also make me pause for as long as I safely can. | ||
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Lazermonkey
Sweden2176 Posts
You have displayed that you don't think his play this game matches his town meta (first and foremost you only quote 2 posts, but lets ignore that for a sec) however, this is quite irrelevant. What we do want to know is if his meta matches his scum games, not if it doesn't match his town games. My point is that hopeless have a history misslynches and I think there are better alternatives than him atm. | ||
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