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Noir Mini Mafia: Chapter 1 - Page 16

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risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
April 02 2013 23:16 GMT
#301
I still have a pending question to Syl I want answered.
I'm leaning town on Lazer.
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
AxleGreaser
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1154 Posts
April 03 2013 00:20 GMT
#302
Ok I am kind of awake again but i imagine we have entered the dead zone.
I am not yet clear on what happened in the last 5 hours or so, while I have read it, more than once and
at 16 pages total the thread is not huge by any stretch.

so...
Axle(OnlySomeTheoriesToAbsurdToBeConsidered)Greaser
Sylencia
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1057 Posts
April 03 2013 00:42 GMT
#303
risk: I honestly don't know why I worded that statement like that when I said there were a few flaws. At that point in tiem all that had been discussed with you was the whole kenpachi thing so saying there was multiple flaws was incorrect. In any case, if you have a question to ask you can do so? (I don't understand why people wait for asking questions)

Lazer: I unvoted because I was going to sleep, I don't leave votes hanging on someone I'm not entirely convinced about in an instant majority game. I already said that's why I didn't like what CC did, so why would I do the exact same thing he did?

In any case, I haven't read what's happened since I left that deeply yet, since I'm at work but I'll do my best in writing whenever I get a break, and naturally once I get home.
Ghor
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation140 Posts
April 03 2013 02:04 GMT
#304
Ghor in conflict, ghor not sure what make of risk. ghor also like hopeless and sylencia as lynch choices.

On April 03 2013 07:01 Hopeless1der wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 06:55 VisceraEyes wrote:
Hopeless who even said anything about you saving Sylencia? What are you talking about?

What do you believe my motive to be? Trying to put myself in your shoes, I'd suspect (Scum-Hopeless) of being disruptive and/or trying to save (Scum-Sylencia).

by the way, inherent in reading two people as scum is everyone else is town.


ghor wonders, why you say you saving scum sylencia (cause you probably want to imply your motive is not being disruptive).
ghor very curious why say scum sylencia. not simply sylencia, or town sylencia.
Артельный горшок гуще кипит
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
April 03 2013 02:44 GMT
#305
Sorry boys, was sleeping then worked for 13 hours and just finished catching up. So today we are going to kill Mr. Cheesecake.

To preface this, I noticed several things about cheesecake I found suspicious. The first was that he seemed to purposely lack reading comprehension at his convenience and the second is that he never really put pressure on anyone but was more willing to call a few people scummy. The third is that I feel is behavior and attitude purposely attempted to disrupt a good town environment. I will approach this in sections


One
On April 03 2013 00:42 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Jesus you guys are active while I'm asleep.

##Unvote

I don't think we should lynch Risk today. How I got +2 to my pressure vote is beyond me.

This is the first thing that tipped me off. To anyone who read the thread it's obvious. CC's pressure vote was mere coincidence and had nothing to do with mine or VE's votes on risknuke. We supplied reasoning in response to a conversation between the three of us. CC voted more or less for fun.


In regards to Sylencia's vote, cool -- Good to see you're paying attention. Nothing was happening so I slapped down a vote on Risk. 20 minutes passed and nothing from him so I went to bed. Now we have shit to work with.

What alarmed me the most was RoL's vote. He explains it here.

Show nested quote +
On April 02 2013 16:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
No, I explained with my vote why I had been doing it. I expanded on my reasoning in my last post. The last post showed risk.nuke continuing to do what I originally outlined. Like I said, it was like he was looking for someone to pick up the slack of the kenpachi tell.


This seems a far cry to think someone is scum. Oh, it looked like he was waiting for someone to sheep the Kenpachi tell... really? I'm not a fan "it looked like he was doing something potentially scummy" instead of "yeah, this is scummy"

This is the next part that struck me. My words are being purposely twisted here. I said it that it appeared Risk.Nuke was looking for someone to pick up the slack. I didn't say it looked like he was doing it. There is a giant difference between the two statements. I expressed that I believed that risk was trying to make someone else push a bad lynch over a stupid tell. At no point did I express any sort of doubt, or notion of whim which CC clearly tries to interject here.

I can't clearly read a thing Axle posts, at least Ghor I understand...

On April 02 2013 22:32 Lazermonkey wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2013 22:27 AxleGreaser wrote:
On April 02 2013 22:15 Lazermonkey wrote:
Howdy folks!

@Axle: I take L-1 as one vote from lynch, am I correct?

Regarding risk: I'm not confident in voting him at the moment. While I agree that the "kenpachi-incident" makes him look kinda bad, he defended himself in a way I'm not sure scum would. I'd say that this could just as well be a strange town play rather than scum and it really comes down to WIFOM to figure out which one it is.


+ Show Spoiler +
TBMK: in general use, L-1 = Lynch -1 = 1 more vote to Lynch. We are currently at L-2.


So if you are "not confident in voting him at the moment.".... what do ?
I'd actually not talk about my (potential)scum read just yet. I want a certain interaction to be happening first. Most probebly, that will occour later today.


Lazer I want you to answer this question. Why do you use the parenthetical (potential)? How is somebody your potential scumread... scum have potential scumreads, town just have scumreads or town reads. Were you just waiting for somebody to slip up so you could call them out?[/QUOTE]
Lastly the stab at Axle is unnecesary. I made a remark earlier about him and Ghor but since then Axle has made sense and stopped being a clown and I have developed a sense of enjoyment from Ghor's posts. The point just serves to generate hostility towards these players.


Two
On April 03 2013 01:14 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Hopeless...

Show nested quote +
On April 02 2013 10:49 Hopeless1der wrote:
On April 02 2013 10:44 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
##unvote: VE
##Vote: Risk.nuke

It's like you brought up the Kenpachi rule just to see if someone else was willing to run with it and kill me. Wanting townies to do your work for you?

Why would I fake a perfectly legit argument?

On April 02 2013 09:50 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
On April 02 2013 09:45 risk.nuke wrote:
VE, RoL. If you're going to tunnel-bitch-argue in the thread atleast argue about something remotely relevant.

If you're going to criticize me for anything, you should answer questions posed of you first. Do you think RoL is scum for "contesting" my "claim" a la Kenpachi Rule?

No I don't.

Doesn't seem all that legit to me.



On April 03 2013 01:09 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
@Axle

You're quite all over the place. Give me something to work with here. Who should we lynch today, based on current posts? Make a stance, because I can't seem to understand what exactly it is you're thinking.

You ask a metric fuckton of questions, but they don't seem to be furthing your reads at all.


On April 02 2013 08:44 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 08:39 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
On April 02 2013 08:37 risk.nuke wrote:
Worst vote ever.


On the contrary, best vote ever.

I would argue that putting your vote on a townie is greatly suboptimal.

Also, scumslip in that he knows CC is town.


At this point in time risk had 3 votes on him. You kinda threw some shit at him and called him scummy. What was your intention with this post?

On April 03 2013 01:38 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 01:32 Hopeless1der wrote:
On April 03 2013 01:14 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Hopeless...

On April 02 2013 10:49 Hopeless1der wrote:
On April 02 2013 10:44 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 10:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
##unvote: VE
##Vote: Risk.nuke

It's like you brought up the Kenpachi rule just to see if someone else was willing to run with it and kill me. Wanting townies to do your work for you?

Why would I fake a perfectly legit argument?

On April 02 2013 09:50 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 09:47 VisceraEyes wrote:
On April 02 2013 09:45 risk.nuke wrote:
VE, RoL. If you're going to tunnel-bitch-argue in the thread atleast argue about something remotely relevant.

If you're going to criticize me for anything, you should answer questions posed of you first. Do you think RoL is scum for "contesting" my "claim" a la Kenpachi Rule?

No I don't.

Doesn't seem all that legit to me.



On April 02 2013 08:44 risk.nuke wrote:
On April 02 2013 08:39 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
On April 02 2013 08:37 risk.nuke wrote:
Worst vote ever.


On the contrary, best vote ever.

I would argue that putting your vote on a townie is greatly suboptimal.

Also, scumslip in that he knows CC is town.


At this point in time risk had 3 votes on him. You kinda threw some shit at him and called him scummy. What was your intention with this post?

I think risk is scummy but didn't want the day to end that soon. Also wanted to see if anyone agreed with my assessment of the supposed scumslip.

Ghor is annoying as all hell and his intentions behind voting sylencia do not match with his scum read on risk.nuke. He wants sylencia to commit to some type of a read on risk and when he refuses to do so, calls him scum for it. No where does he validate why this is scummy. Combine that with what appears to be a trolling smurf hellbent on behaving like a caveman, and I think he's a good choice for lynch.


It's that type of post I hate, Hopeless. I call it a Clarity. Clarity_nl did that in a game as scum, it was like he was bolstering a case without actually committing. I think that's what you were doing, prodding people to vote with no committal. And look, you can back out of it easy :D

How do the intentions behind voting sylencia not match with a scumread on risk.nuke? Both of them could be scum, according to him?

On April 03 2013 02:36 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Ghor please explain that shit because that would be the definition of deflecting pressure. Syl didn't talk much about scumreads (risk) but instead talked about other people.


The quoted posts all illustrate where CC varies from taking a semi strong view on a player, to calling another few players suspicious. However in none of these posts did he ever go from trying to make a point and follow through with the pressure. At this point in the game CC has removed his vote and is just idling around without ever actually providing thoughts hes willing to follow through on.


Three
I pointed out earlier how he needlessly attacked Axle, and took a little jab at Ghur and we see it again in this post here:
On April 03 2013 01:17 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 01:16 VisceraEyes wrote:
Hi guys I'm reading. I have a feeling I'm not gonna like something I read, anyone wanna tell me what it is to lessen the impact reading it has?


Posts that have "Ghor" at the top of them.

His posts are not actually that bad apart from the formatting and they are even a bit entertaining. However it is super easy to generate hostility to a player who is not speaking in any easy to interpret manner because less people are likely to actually read the posts that Ghur puts out.

That part that we have to look at here is what purpose it serves. You can say that I was belligerent towards VE early on, but it served a purpose. I aimed to start discussion. Both of his attacks on Ghur/Axle do nothing to stimulate discussion and serve to just disrupt a town environment that was fairly productive.



Conclusion
Mr. Cheesecake does not want to contribute, purposely uses strawman arguments by misinterpreting posts, and while posting criticisms of players he never truly pushes someone, and seems to just be looking for a lynch to get behind. When you couple that behavior with pointless attacks on easy targets it makes him an excellent lynch candidate for Day 1.

unvote: risk.nuke
Vote: Mr. Cheesecake
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
RebirthOfLeGenD
Profile Blog Joined November 2008
USA5860 Posts
April 03 2013 02:45 GMT
#306
Now I'm going to sleep/nap.
Be a man, Become a Legend. TL Mafia Forum Ask for access!!
strongandbig
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
United States4858 Posts
Last Edited: 2013-04-03 02:51:08
April 03 2013 02:50 GMT
#307
STRONG COUNT



risk.nuke ( 0): Mr. Cheesecake, VisceraEyes, RebirthOfLeGenD, Hopeless1der
VisceraEyes ( 0 ): RebirthOfLeGenD
Sylencia ( 2 ): AxleGreaser, Ghor, Lazermonkey
Mr. Cheesecake ( 1 ): Sylencia, RebirthOfLeGenD
Ghor ( 1 ): Hopeless1der , Hopeless1der
Hopeless1der ( 2 ): VisceraEyes, risk.nuke

Not Voting ( 3 ): AxleGreaser, Mr. Cheesecake, Sylencia

With 9 alive it takes 5 to lynch. This is instant majority lynch. If you see a mistake please notify us.
"It's the torso" "only more so!"
Mr. Cheesecake
Profile Joined October 2012
United States3756 Posts
April 03 2013 03:48 GMT
#308
RoL case gets four out of five stars from me, the lines were fancy and stuff. Unfortunately it's wrong. If anyone wants me to waste the effort of going over it, don't.

##Vote: Hopeless1der

Via stuff I said before. He scum. This Sylencia business is bad -- Lazermonkey, look me in the eye and tell me Hopeless isn't scummier than Syl -.-

In fact Lazer, why are you completely ignoring a Hopeless lynch all together? It's like you haven't even looked at him. I challenge you, son ---> specifically why shouldn't we lynch Hopeless today?
But CC isn't protown as town. 100% real heuristic.
Ghor
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation140 Posts
April 03 2013 04:14 GMT
#309
Ghor not think Cheesecake scum.

If risk town, Cheesecake could keep vote on risk, agree on cases. Por ush easy lynch.
If risk scum, unlikely Cheesecake early vote scumbuddy in instant majority.maybe crazy play.

That connection based, maybe bad. but not think CC scum based on gut.


Ghor think Sylencia become more scummy, he always delay contribution. Many excuse, no push for direction. No pressure when Cheesecake here. Only justify himself.Ask others if they have question. Sylencia goal survive, not hunt scum.

Ghor think sylencia better lynch than risk or hopeless, cause ghor conflict read between two, maybe they opposite alignment, not think D1 bus. want wait, see how play. Lynch sylencia first.
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AxleGreaser
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1154 Posts
April 03 2013 05:19 GMT
#310
I suspect this is going to not sit well with some people, however if you cant actually refute
one of the propositions, it is just cold logic.

If we take the player List, I can cut in two in a way that is interesting to me.

Cheesecake, VisceraEyes, RebirthOfLegend and Risk.nuke. are in one (pool A).

if I leave myself out (as i have read my PM)

that leaves Sylencia, LazerMonkey, Hopeless, and Ghor in (pool B)

So, if both you(the reader) and I had to guess out of pool A & B who scum would nk....
I think we would reach the same conclusion.
(It is also even true if you take yourself out and put me in pool B)


I am a contrarian bastard, all else being equal, anything scum wants I don't.

Sorry guys, unless we have an actual significant reason, and
I don't consider the cases that have been put on risk.nuke and more recently cheescake a
significant reason, then Lynching into the same pool as scum will nk a Townie from seems silly.

If scum want what i consider one of the players with better/longer track records dead,
then scum can god damn kill them themselves.




Basically a significant part of why (if i get a choice) I will choose to lynch out of pool B is what I regard as holes in all the logic I have seen put against members of Pool A. But worse the holes are at times (mainly?) from other members of pool A.

As such I have the expectation I will be posting things about what happened between
Cheescakes pressure vote
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18177222

and
My first post
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18177952

basically the analysis is going to be a little pointless (sorry) as what I wind up with
is meh/whatever, but it is the mehness of that that justifies me lynching into pool B.

Also as once the Lynch goes down there is silent night, and a chance either someone I discuss
(or really unlikely me?) will die, I would like to have my view of those events on the table.
I see them differently, to the participants.

As stated it does not paint any one of them red,

if you are one of
Cheesecake, VisceraEyes, RebirthOfLegend and Risk.nuke.

and you wish to clarify the towny intentions of/behind your actions,
AKA walk us through your thinking, please do.




Finally note one rather useful thing the whole risk.nuke wagon did was it parked all of the pool A players, on or under a wagon, and left space for the lurkers to come out and play.
Hence it was in some sense a good thing, even if risk.nuke was never a lot scummy.

My next and immediate task is to decide if i want to 'vote to Lynch', Hopeless, Sylencia, Lazer or Ghor.



Axle(OnlySomeTheoriesToAbsurdToBeConsidered)Greaser
risk.nuke
Profile Joined May 2010
Sweden2825 Posts
April 03 2013 05:27 GMT
#311
We're not lynching anyone other then hopeless. RoL you got to be joking if you think that we're going to lynch cheesecake first. While I agree with your posts and I had some thoughts in simmilar direction last night. It's still a weaker case then on hopeless. I don't like how you haven't talked about me since your vote and I would like you to comment further on me and hopeless.

Hopeless is obvious scum and has pretty much given up by now. This is not how he plays as town.

And Ghor's post are not hard to read. If you disregard the fact that he speaks in third person and often don't use capital letters they're actually very simple to read and even efficiently phrased.

Sylencia. Who do you want to kill?
Neo.G Soulkey, Best, firebathero. // http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/index.php?show_part=31
Ghor
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation140 Posts
April 03 2013 05:27 GMT
#312
Ghor think Axle need decide if lynch sylencia or hopeless. ghor not think lazer and himself good candidates.

ve want hopeless, not sylencia.
risk want hopeless. not say anything about sylencia. ghor waiting for risk to say something, but he not.ghor need risk opinion for decide.
ghor also see hopeless attack me when i attack sylencia.and hopeless say he either disruptive or he scum defending scum sylencia. ghor see strange lexical choice, strange explaining of motivation. wait for hopeless to explain.
sylencia only defend himself, no interact with scumread, no push. Only busy.

we at important point da
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Ghor
Profile Joined March 2013
Russian Federation140 Posts
April 03 2013 05:34 GMT
#313
ghor actually decide to give risk townread for now.he not lurky, he sound better lately.

ghor kill hopeless, people wait for sylencia to answer.
ghor want hammer. and sickle. da.

##Unvote
##hopeless1der
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AxleGreaser
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1154 Posts
April 03 2013 06:30 GMT
#314
On April 03 2013 14:34 Ghor wrote:
ghor actually decide to give risk townread for now.he not lurky, he sound better lately.

ghor kill hopeless, people wait for sylencia to answer.
ghor want hammer. and sickle. da.

##Unvote
#-#hopeless1der



ATTENTION THREAD

hopeless1der is at L-1

If you vote NOW for hopeless the day ends...

do not vote right now.

Do NOT LOL hammer.

I was coming here to vote for Hopeless.... to put him at L-1, but as it would be now the intention to hammer vote....
IMO need slightly better reasons, as I also need to rule out Syl and Lazer.

(RL life means I have to cook tea, and stuff... so I cant be quick)

basically I think people ought start getting their affairs in order....

Hopeless You say that you are town... I think you game is about to end....

What help can you give town?

Some nice you will be sorry when you lynch me thing... ok?




Axle(OnlySomeTheoriesToAbsurdToBeConsidered)Greaser
Sylencia
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1057 Posts
April 03 2013 09:08 GMT
#315
On April 03 2013 02:23 Mr. Cheesecake wrote:
Breaking it down:

> Ghor calls out Syl for deflecting pressure off Risk.
>Hopeless calls out Ghor for believing they (both syl+risk) are both the scumteam and not just voting Risk instead of bringing up a new candidate.
>Hopeless pushes Ghor for this.
>Hopeless then asserts that Ghor and Risk are the scumteam.

^ Logic is so messy. If Hopeless believed Risk was scum -> why not just lynch him, do what you advocated and not switch targets? Instead, he decides to fling shit at Risk but not vote him, and then vote Ghor when he thinks Ghor / Risk scumteam.


This reasoning here though is also why I'm so confused by Ghor's arguments and vote against me. He says I'm deflecting from risk, suggesting I'm trying to take pressure off him (and at the time onto you) and since that in his eyes makes him scum, would imply that he sees my defense of risk makes risk scum too. However, rather than voting for risk we have a vote on a new candidate instead. This doesn't make sense to me, and yet the same thing happens with Hopeless.

On April 03 2013 13:14 Ghor wrote:
Ghor think Sylencia become more scummy, he always delay contribution. Many excuse, no push for direction. No pressure when Cheesecake here. Only justify himself.Ask others if they have question. Sylencia goal survive, not hunt scum.


Delaying contributions? Have you not read what I posted earlier about when I do post and when I don't?

On April 03 2013 03:42 Lazermonkey wrote:
Sylencia

So the reason I didn't want to out my scum read earlier was twofold
1. I wanted a little more basis for my accusations. His entrance into the game was scummy but could just have been a result of him beeing busy rather than scum.
2. I didn't have enough time to write a decent case.

Sylencias first 2 posts said absolutely nothing of anything. He then posts a seemingly long post but all it really contains 2 reads, the rest was stuff like calling risk wierd but no conclusion about his alignment. In this post he calls CC scum, VE town, and then proceeds to vote CC. Now it gets interesting! What does he do with this scum read? Jack shit!

Instead he goes into this drawn out argument with Ghor about Ghor's case on him. Why do this? Why is he not chasing his scum read instead of defending himself against 1 single vote which isn't threatening at all. Why doesn't he try to convince us that CC is scum?

Why does he go from
Show nested quote +
On April 02 2013 18:53 Sylencia wrote:- Cheesecake: This filter looks atrocious in my eyes, casting an early vote with little thought, yet providing no substance while he's around. Not sure if trolling around is his meta but seems pretty scum from here.
To
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 00:10 Sylencia wrote:
On April 02 2013 23:41 Ghor wrote:
risk.nuke Sweden. April 02 2013 09:19:
Think RoL just set of the old kenpachi trap.


risk say no policy in first post, but risk talk about stupid policy in next post.
risk say he no lynch RoL for kenpachi rule BEFORE defend himself, but say kenpachi rule legit and accurate when defend himself.

ghor want sylencia to say if he think risk town or scum, not flipflop pinball, evidence there, comment on it.


In addition, how is his statement about accuracy there that relevant to what happened before it? Are you suggesting that he said it to set up a bus on his buddy, then you're saying that he did that to say RoL is scum, then retract it? I don't even understand what you're getting at here.

And at this point, no, he's played enough games where I don't see him making himself look suspicious 3 hours into the game. The case on him has its merits however I would rather first see more from the two I've heard least from today (Hopeless and CC) - moreso Hopeless because there's ever so slightly more from CC.

Ghor - now that I've said it what are your thoughts on risk then? Would you say he is scum or not? Would you end up backing a vote on him if the time came for it?
WITHOUT CC even posting in between??? And then goes
Show nested quote +
On April 03 2013 00:42 Sylencia wrote:
In any case ##unvote as I'm going to sleep now, but what Ghor is saying is becoming ridiculously stupid since he says risk is scum but doesn't want to have him killed. If you don't want your scum read to be killed what the hell do you want?

If I wake up and this stupidity continues I won't hesitate to vote Ghor.
Still without CC saying jack shit? Well I'll tell you folks, because he is scum!

##Vote: Sylencia


First 2 posts were going to lead somewhere as I had intended to have a deeper conversation regarding the voting power and whatnot, but then work got busier and I completely lost the train of thought the next time I looked at the thread.

Your case against my vote on CC is also fairly meaningless, during the entire time I had my vote on him, CC wasn't around. The amount I had to go off on him was limited, and so you were saying I should be stretching my imaginations to see what's so scummy about one-liner #2? Why would I not talk to others and get a better idea of where they are at? This leads on into the argument with Ghor, and I defend myself because I'm being accused of being scum. Is that not something you'd do as town? Instead, you let them run all over you while you try to push a weak case on someone else? We're not playing 8v1, even if I had thought that CC was scum that's no reason to stop looking at others.

As for taking off my vote, I think I explained that earlier this afternoon.

Risk: As for who I want to kill, it'd be moreso Ghor than Hopeless, but they both have the same base logic behind them: X accuses Y is scum because of their actions with regards to risk, and thus they both had thoughts of risk+Y being scumteam, yet they both refuse to vote risk for some reason.

Now Ghor has suddenly done a 180 on risk saying he's town based on activity (...) and chooses to jump ship to Hopeless.

So pretty much, I'm willing to hammer Hopeless here, but if it's town I still see this as looking horrible on Ghor. Not that he wasn't looking horrible to me anyways.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
April 03 2013 09:14 GMT
#316
Hopeless is a decent lynch at most. But while that is the case, my last 2 games I played town with town Hopeless. Both games ended up with hopeless misslynched or vigi killed. Hopeless were making several basic errors in those games as well. These games were:

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=373946 (mafia LVIII)
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=392955 (dessert mini)

To be fair, I don't see a clear diference between Hopeless play in those games and this game. This obviously doesn't make Hopless town but I really don't see how you are voting him over Sylencia at this point. And reading the thread doesn't exactly help me...

Axle: I have no idea why you think hopeless is scum.
Risk: You reasons for voting Hopeless is partly meta and partly the fact that he isn't scum hunting. The meta part I disagree with and the scum hunting part is something that Sylencia does far worse at. Also, why do you continously avoid taking a stance on Sylencia despite promising to do so?
CC: You are voting hopeless for poor logic but guess what? That isn't alignment indicative.

VE and Ghor I think have decent reasons to be on him atm.

The reason I didn't say anything about this earlier is because I wanted Hopeless to defend himself rather than me do it for him, but since we are one vote away from killing him atm, my strategy has indeed failed.
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
April 03 2013 09:17 GMT
#317
Sylencia: Explain WHY hopeless and Ghors actions make them scum.

Also, how did CC become town,suddenly? -.-
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
April 03 2013 09:18 GMT
#318
Also, don't hammer yet...
AxleGreaser
Profile Joined November 2012
Australia1154 Posts
April 03 2013 10:04 GMT
#319
A Hopeless Case

What has hopeless1der done this game, and is it consistent with a scummy motivation.

TLDR: Yes. Were done
intention to hammer the lynch on Hopless1der

Suggestions on what time you dont want him hammered before welcome...

Is there anything anyone wants to say before we enter silent night and you perhaps die?

In particular are there any people who might be nk targets that wish to speak before they die?
pool A... That means You

+ Show Spoiler [an actual case] +

is there anything that is not consistent with scum Hopeless?
Policy talk

asks Ghor about language issues

He makes 1 prod at the risk wagon. (has 1 out 2 valid points) but does not Vote (it is at L-2... ?) so perhaps thats a choice.
(yes he hunted risk as scum,(found 1 scummy point) see later post for why risk might well not be...)

As town: Personally if it is VEs and RoLs wagon, I also want to see why they are pushing it as at that point in the game I don't at this time know if they are town.
So yeah chucking fuel on someone elses wagon, is a bit scummy.

So even though he wants long day.. presumably to catch _other_ scum...
what is his apparent prime focus...

He then asks Ghor about risk.nuke, and votes him to pressure him into replying, but even though he is hunting scum is is supposedly be, like Syl, concerned somewhat about the possibility of hammering when Hopless gets an answer from Ghor the vote, that he is concerned about, stays parked on Ghor... because.... he doesn't care?

Having said I think he's a good choice for lynch. at 1.32
admitedly not that long later, but it is only when pushed, he puts his vote on risk...

Now personally I have some sympathy for the view of not putting risk at L-1 earlier where one actual accident ends the day. Indeed I think he should not have so rapidly gone from 1 to 3 votes...
My problem is the posting and voting seems to be following path of least resistance, like whatever is needed to get people to look elsewhere or just get the lynch to happen.
If scum is lucky or good in instant majority lynching they don't need to have any votes on any wagons... especially if the front runner is a mislynch. You can fan it and throw petrol on it but there is no need to actually vote it.

When asked why
Ghor rejecting Hopelesses dsicovery of a scum slip (by risk) as a scum slip,
is a scummy thing for Ghor to do, Hopless claims that is Ghor somehow sweeping it under the rug.

I find that little odd... I find that if there is some disagreement like whether or not something is scum slip.. as town that attracts my attention... after all if one of them is making up scum slips out of whole cloth, then I need to think why they'd make that mistake. One reason scum make mistakes like that is they are always reaching for arguments to show things they know not to be true. Town can make overreaching claims too, but I find it tends to be a scummy thing to do.

And then it just gets silly.... http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18181435
when hopeless finds 3rd scum in the game...

personally if you find some hole in my reasoning... first I am embarrased, and second since I am playing to win... I want to fix my error. Hopelesses reasoning that doubting his scum slip is scum slip makes the doubter scum leads to the conclusion there are 3 scum. Ergo the logic is faulty.
Does hopeless want correct logic? Nope. (BTW I think it not scum slip too I must be scum as well that makes it 4 scum in 9 player game... Oh nos were at Lylo?) Does hopless want to go back and find out what that error means and correct it? See earlier when I stuffed up and asked a couple of stupid pointless questions. I just flat out said oops. I said it so no one would be distracted by the error. Care to Guess why, I care about the thread having truthful information?

long version

While he says
“I think risk is scummy but didn't want the day to end that soon.”
presumably that is so as to hunt other scum...
but basically a summary of Hopeless1der's scum hunting is....

Looking around for someone else who wants to lynch risk...

His new scum read Ghor, was found because he disgreed with one part of a post Hopeless made against risk.
When he discovers multiple people think the slip was not slip and that Ghors point was right...
They're all scum

All up my actual position is I think Hopeless is the most likely person I see to flip scum

Intention to hammer Hopeless1der

Caveat: I will also now consider some meta
+ Show Spoiler [meta] +

here is Hopeless challenging palmer Logic.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17407538
This is hopeless making read that allows for the kind of player he is considering
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=17409484
That seems little disparate with his tolerance for Ghor... who is admittedly perhaps more challenging than Palmar.

However no it does not really seem like Towny Hopeless from LVIII to me.
Some meta.

@LAZER
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=18187577
As you played and think the meta is similar

Would you care to outline examples where Hopeless is reactive, like i find him in this game or
examples where he is so interested in what other people are voting.
examples of him commenting (throwing fuel) on wagons ...

or any explanation of what he wanted the day to be long so that he could accomplish?
What was he doing today?




FYI: No I wont be hammering soon or abruptly...
We have a long time to spin our wheels and line up all our ducks.
I have several long posts I want to make that I have not yet written.
I want to put in the thread my best understanding of what happened
when the risk wagon started,
and why I was not all yipee lets lynch that scum.. there were and are issues with that wagon.

Also unless i hear from the people who i think might get nk'd that they are done posting
for the day, that will also make me pause for as long as I safely can.
Axle(OnlySomeTheoriesToAbsurdToBeConsidered)Greaser
Lazermonkey
Profile Joined June 2011
Sweden2176 Posts
April 03 2013 10:22 GMT
#320
I think you are using meta in the wrong way, Axle. No, I haven't actually gone back to the games to find specific posts that match with this game but I don't feel I have to.

You have displayed that you don't think his play this game matches his town meta (first and foremost you only quote 2 posts, but lets ignore that for a sec) however, this is quite irrelevant. What we do want to know is if his meta matches his scum games, not if it doesn't match his town games.

My point is that hopeless have a history misslynches and I think there are better alternatives than him atm.
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