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On August 04 2011 22:52 Eufouria wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:48 b_unnies wrote:
Honestly I think what Coach Lee did is fair. Trickster/Fruitdealer don't practice? They don't get paid. Do you expect your boss to pay you if you don't show up for work either? I agree that in theory what he did was right, but you can't just ignore contracts. The contracts should be designed in a way that takes account of practice time, probably through bonuses, that way players have motivation to practice.
Do you remember the puma scenario? ye he wasn't contracted, same with tester and FD
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On August 04 2011 22:52 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:48 Wfat wrote:On August 04 2011 22:46 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 22:44 Wfat wrote:
Ok so from what I gather from this and the Puma/EG issue:
Coach Lee thinks it's acceptable to withhold salaries that have been agreed under good faith without signing a legally binding contract, but defames Puma/EG when Puma was not himself contracted. Childish, unprofessional... the whole situation with this bloke and TSL seems pretty fucked to me if this is the case.
Please tell me that this isn't the norm in Korean competitive gaming. Apparently all of your conlcusion after your "gathering" is all wrong and almost have nothing to do with this thread -_- Can you please explain how? Not trying to be ignorant but maybe I've missed some key details? Because the whole thing about Puma is not about he defaming Puma or Puma being lusted by money and leave TSL, its about EG approaching Puma behind Lee's back, which is unacceptable. But that's another story and it alsmost has nothing to do with this thread and we should stop talking about that.
Couldn't disagree with you any more, but OK mate, I won't post about it again in this thread.
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On August 04 2011 22:59 FXOpen wrote:
One thing I have learned, and this is not in reference to coach lee as I dont know the true situation. Is that you cannot trust the players association.
I may dive into the reasons why in a different post/thread and not hijack this one.
That's a serious accusation from some1 in your position.
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Have to agree with Coach Lee on not giving payments to fruit dealer and Tester were putting in the effort that would satisfy Coach Lee and I respect his decision to not pay 100%
why should he give them 5,000+ when they didn't even try to earn it?
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On August 04 2011 23:01 Technique wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:59 FXOpen wrote:
One thing I have learned, and this is not in reference to coach lee as I dont know the true situation. Is that you cannot trust the players association.
I may dive into the reasons why in a different post/thread and not hijack this one. That's a serious accusation from some1 in your position.
Yes and there is huge reasons behind it. Its not all of the members of the association. But more just 1 person in the association of power. Some behaviour is very unacceptable by them.
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On August 04 2011 20:57 xBillehx wrote:Just some tidbits of information: S2con = SC2's version of KeSPA = Coaches, players association & GOM. They have the power to ban people from GSL/GSTL, make the rules for SC2 atm (referee's) & arbitrate disputes but are pretty lenient on most things. With TSL removed (withdrawn), it's now made up of FoU (Now FXO?), IM, oGs, Prime, ZeNEX, NSHoseo, StarTale & MVP. (SlayerS is not part of this but more like a partner) SC2pa = players association. The players have a voice in the association that makes the rules so when there's a dispute between players and their teams, they're able to bring it up to s2con for help. The players association is mainly represented by  Junwi, who's the president voted in by most sc2 players at the time. (last year)
How can S2con have the power to make rules and arbitrate dispute if they don't even have reps from each team? I thought that was the crux of the whole EG thing, that there is no body to regulate things, within korea or internationally??
either way, Lee looks like more of an incompetent asshole than he did after that whole EG mess, and shady to boot.
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On August 04 2011 22:59 FXOpen wrote:
One thing I have learned, and this is not in reference to coach lee as I dont know the true situation. Is that you cannot trust the players association.
I may dive into the reasons why in a different post/thread and not hijack this one.
I hope you do. I'm curious.
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On August 04 2011 22:59 FXOpen wrote:
One thing I have learned, and this is not in reference to coach lee as I dont know the true situation. Is that you cannot trust the players association.
I may dive into the reasons why in a different post/thread and not hijack this one.
I would love to hear your thoughts on this.
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On August 04 2011 23:02 Hawk wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 20:57 xBillehx wrote:Just some tidbits of information: S2con = SC2's version of KeSPA = Coaches, players association & GOM. They have the power to ban people from GSL/GSTL, make the rules for SC2 atm (referee's) & arbitrate disputes but are pretty lenient on most things. With TSL removed (withdrawn), it's now made up of FoU (Now FXO?), IM, oGs, Prime, ZeNEX, NSHoseo, StarTale & MVP. (SlayerS is not part of this but more like a partner) SC2pa = players association. The players have a voice in the association that makes the rules so when there's a dispute between players and their teams, they're able to bring it up to s2con for help. The players association is mainly represented by Junwi, who's the president voted in by most sc2 players at the time. (last year) How can S2con have the power to make rules and arbitrate dispute if they don't even have reps from each team? I thought that was the crux of the whole EG thing, that there is no body to regulate things, within korea or internationally??
Rhetorical question ;o
They don't and they cannot enforce it either. Hawk you know KeSPA worked, so I don't have to explain it to you.
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On August 04 2011 22:52 Clow wrote:
If I don't work, I don't get paid. How is that wrong? Maybe it wasn't in the contract, but bashing Coach Lee for this is just stupid.
because you have never worked :D
If you don't work, you are fired, but you won't get your wage on hold.
Not knowing what is happening but bashing people who obviously know more about the business world than you do is just stupid
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On August 04 2011 22:52 brachester wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:48 Wfat wrote:On August 04 2011 22:46 brachester wrote:On August 04 2011 22:44 Wfat wrote:
Ok so from what I gather from this and the Puma/EG issue:
Coach Lee thinks it's acceptable to withhold salaries that have been agreed under good faith without signing a legally binding contract, but defames Puma/EG when Puma was not himself contracted. Childish, unprofessional... the whole situation with this bloke and TSL seems pretty fucked to me if this is the case.
Please tell me that this isn't the norm in Korean competitive gaming. Apparently all of your conlcusion after your "gathering" is all wrong and almost have nothing to do with this thread -_- Can you please explain how? Not trying to be ignorant but maybe I've missed some key details? Because the whole thing about Puma is not about he defaming Puma or Puma being lusted by money and leave TSL, its about EG approaching Puma behind Lee's back, which is unacceptable. But that's another story and it alsmost has nothing to do with this thread and we should stop talking about that.
I half agree. The fact that Lee can do what he did explains that he's likely a lot more hot headed than we think. Evidently, this proves nothing, but opens us up to a few ideas. For that I believe it is relevant.
That being said, I agree that the Puma bit is completely different and EG did go behind Lee's back.
Lee seems to have a low tolerance for this stuff..
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On August 04 2011 23:00 Caphe wrote:
This is why we need a goverment approved body like Kespa for SC2. Or I really hope that Kespa and Blizzard will come to an agreement soon so Kespa can manage the legal aspect of SC2 too.
Is kespa the organization that disqualified people from turnys when they typed an extra p for a pause or typed in the a different variation of GG at the end of a game. I never followed BW so i dont know how they where but i really would not like an organization like that if a player i liked got DQ just for typing GG wp sir at the end of a match instead of just GG.
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And then people blame Puma for leaving as soon as EG waved two dollar bills in his general direction. All does not seem well in the house of TSL, and coach Lee seems to be knee-deep in it.
Did anyone else think that the big deal he made out of paying salary to SKS and FD a few months back read more like a PR announcement, then anything else?
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On August 04 2011 23:06 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:52 Clow wrote:
If I don't work, I don't get paid. How is that wrong? Maybe it wasn't in the contract, but bashing Coach Lee for this is just stupid. because you have never worked :D If you don't work, you are fired, but you won't get your wage on hold. Not knowing what is happening but bashing people who obviously know more about the business world than you do is just stupid
I'm going to jump the gun here and say a lot of people here have little to no clue how the business world works and that goes way beyond salary. The funny thing is Tester and FD didn't even have a written agreement, so you can throw that shit out the window so to speak.
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On August 04 2011 22:34 StarStruck wrote:Show nested quote +On August 04 2011 22:27 captive411 wrote:On August 04 2011 22:25 StarStruck wrote:
If I'm your fucking coach and I tell you to do something. You fucking do it. No exceptions or else I bench you. I look for team players. Not individuals. If they cannot adapt you send them down along with their payroll. This is a terrible leadership strategy. It may work on football players or soldiers, but it has no place with the introverted gamer society. In short, you can't abuse nerds, they're too smart. Are you implying that other athletes aren't? lmao You do what works as a coach. Each coach has their own philosophy, but at the end of the day it comes down to winning. How you use your assets is another thing. It isn't a terrible strategy at all. In fact, a lot of coaches use it across the board. Some of the best ones I know are real hard asses. In other words, coach Lee decided it was time was in order to get results and FD/Tester decided they wanted none of it, so they left on their own accord just as they came in. They weren't promised anything and at the time they joined they were all for helping support the team financially. Practice wise, I'll leave that to you guys to judge.
Bottom line is, under Lee they weren't winning OR retaining talented players. Something is terribly wrong in that house and my opinion is that its Lee. Good coaches don't lose good players.
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I'd really like to hear the story from both sides clearly before passing judgement...
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sixjax.Clide it has to happen
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On August 04 2011 22:23 Hardigan wrote:
But i really hope this subject will show up an a show soon (looking at you djWheat, you are the community-drama tamer), hopefully with representitives.
As much as I would like to cover this kind of thing beyond just an opinion piece, with the last Coach Lee incident we discovered issues with bringing on Korean representatives. I get the impression that most would be interested in participating in the show, but there are major concerns about the language barrier. When you introduce that it becomes increasingly difficult to convey everything from fact to opinion. It doesn't mean we aren't going to try now and in the future, but it is definitely a problem that I'm not sure how it gets solved (other than pre-recording content so it can be properly translated, etc).
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EPT
