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On May 26 2013 09:56 ItzShakti wrote:
Hello!
I'm a high masters zerg, and recently I've been struggling a lot vs Terran.
I'm finding it very hard to hold some of the 2-2 bio mine pushes.
When the push arrives, I have 2-2, a lot of zerglings and banelings, and sometimes I've even got mutas, and creep spread.
But in the fight, I never come out effectively, as I lose a lot of banelings, and he usually fly away in his medivacs, then he starts dropping and attacking my front, until I die.
I want to know how can I be more effective versus widow mines, and how to secure a fifth(or even a fourth sometimes).
The only way to be effective against Widow Mines is to make them almost useless by triggering them with a very minimal investment (1-2 lings, Overlords/Queens life pool, 1 Roach) or to make them work against the Terran, so spreading your lings as much as possible and running them PAST the bio ball or under clumped up medivacs, using the Mines damage to trade your cheap units for his more expansive composition. Either one is not particularly easy to achieve and you will have to micro as much as he has to avoid losing his mines or take friendly fire, I started having some success with it when I actually spent a few hours with practice partners testing these situations over and over.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 26 2013 09:56 ItzShakti wrote:
Hello!
I'm a high masters zerg, and recently I've been struggling a lot vs Terran.
I'm finding it very hard to hold some of the 2-2 bio mine pushes.
When the push arrives, I have 2-2, a lot of zerglings and banelings, and sometimes I've even got mutas, and creep spread.
But in the fight, I never come out effectively, as I lose a lot of banelings, and he usually fly away in his medivacs, then he starts dropping and attacking my front, until I die.
I want to know how can I be more effective versus widow mines, and how to secure a fifth(or even a fourth sometimes).
Sounds like you're short on units. You might want to look for your macro and see if you're falling behind or not. In the scenario you're describing it's probably optimal to be somewhere around 80 drones and constantly massing lings, focusing your attention on where your army can be the most efficient.
If the macro is not the problem, your engagements probably need some work. Make sure to do things like flanks/splitting. Splitting banelings is especially important vs mines. The a-move is also especially important - make sure to movecommand your army past the terran's army instead of a-moving straight on to it. Stephano is a good zerg to look to for examples on how to engage. Make sure to be extra careful with your mutas, send them in later rather than too soon.
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How do you stop marine/rauder/Medivac/Hellbat combination. They typically 2 base off this and take a 3rd behind the pressure
here is a link to my other thread with 4 replays, the drops start at around 8:30 and force you to pull drones to no loose them which hurts your econ even if they just pick up and leave
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=414574
Please help, been seeing more of it and now that Stephano lost to MVP with this build it will be ALL over ladder soon
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On May 26 2013 07:54 Kornholi0 wrote:
Well Broesl
I've been with TL for a very long time, and what I've learned from it is simply this,
This is a community, built upon people helping other people... Not a monopoly of pros giving advice. They got those blue tags by making an impact on the community, but first they were simple posters.
I think that is why this forum has gone so dry, is because people are waiting for the pros to comment, and not letting the nobodies take a swing at it.
But that is just my two cents...
If a pro wants to come here and tell me I am wrong then go ahead.
That is what zerg help me thread and simple questions simple answers is for, I think the idea is that if people want advice from a pro they can come here, but if the don't care who give the advice they can go to the other threads
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in ZvT versus reapers, can the 4 queen opener hold or do you need to go fast speedlings?
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hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 27 2013 11:19 Dynamitekid wrote:
in ZvT versus reapers, can the 4 queen opener hold or do you need to go fast speedlings?
Gasless 4queen defense works perfectly, as long as you transition properly.
Vs mass reaper you might need a spine and more than 4 queens, for example.
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On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote:
Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded.
Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it...
That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
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On May 28 2013 05:11 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote:
Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded. Well, I, for one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it... That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
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Welp, looking for a bit of input. Gold league, trying to break into Plat, and I'm getting close. I think I know what needs to happen in this circumstance (aside from more scouting) but I have a replay here that shows what is going on if anyone wants. The general idea of it is that I am trying to pull off Hydra/Swarm Host against Protoss, and attempting to do this off 3 base with a macro hatch. This seems to be common place in most of my games versus protoss, where they have an overwhelming force earlier than I'm ready. I think a bit more scouting information will be better however, at this point I think I need to change up what I am doing. I was thinking about a Roach/Corruptor composition, but I would like to know if there's something safer and more viable for an earlier 1 or 2 base immortal zealot push.
I would like input. Constructively please. I appreciate it ♥
EDIT: Just had some more thoughts added by a friend. The build I am doing seems somewhat wasteful, mostly because of things like having too much gas, and not enough drones early enough.
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On May 28 2013 05:11 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote:
Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded. Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it... That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
Well glad I could help, to avoid abusing this thread more than I have, if you shoot me a PM I could help you with more stuff if you like.
I used to coach people for hours upon hours for free... Then I realized I could make money off of it, then I realized no one wanted to pay for lessons so now I just teach the odd person for free.
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On May 28 2013 05:11 Frankie Teardrop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 26 2013 12:03 Kornholi0 wrote:
Well I dun goof'd...
Hey Blade was there anything wrong with my post? (aside from its intrusion to this thread)
If it is correct please claim it as your own. I would rather the information be seen then it be discarded. Well, I, to one, am sure as hell am glad I saw it... That was the most informative post I have ever read on the subject, and believe me, I read a lot about gateway expands in ZvP because I have such a hard time reacting to them without either over-reacting or overdroning. I wish there was a comprehensive guide about what possible timings and types of pressure a Protoss can apply off of various styles of gateway expands, and proper zerg reactions to each. Your post was the closest thing to that I have seen yet.
Maybe you wanna take a look at this then :
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=412028
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Norway839 Posts
Guys before posting in this thread please follow the guidelines in the OP:
- Please do not include your own replays. Ask only questions that can be answered without having to watch a replay.
If you're not one of the Pro Zerg players answering questions but still have good knowledge, PM with advice instead of posting/creating a discussion about how this thread should function. Again, The OP of this thread explains things very straight forward =) just writing on my own behalf here, makes it easier for me to answer questions when I don't have to skim through posts that turn out not to be questions... sry kk
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What are the timings and their respective ingame time you should be worried about in ZvP if P goes FFE? From when could shit hit the fan? (7gate all-in, sentry-immortal allin, voidray gateway all-in etc)
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how to prepare in ZvT or ZvP on big maps like star station where you cant scout what they are doing?! got huge problems on the big maps with scouting. vs FFE you can scout gases which tells enough i think but vs gate first or T in general i feel pretty lost.
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So a question regarding hydras in zvt against bioplay
Especially versus marauders/hellbats
Hydras should be good now shouldnt they?
Your units are lings/bane heavy with hydras. Even maybe a 3rd evo
Seems to me hydras is viable in zvt if you dont mass them to hard and against correct bio play
Any comment?
Just to be clear, i am talking about when zerg goes heavy ling/Bane and to add hydras into this(you skip roaches), and particularly against many marauders and hellbats
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Norway839 Posts
On May 28 2013 21:47 KaiserJohan wrote:
What are the timings and their respective ingame time you should be worried about in ZvP if P goes FFE? From when could shit hit the fan? (7gate all-in, sentry-immortal allin, voidray gateway all-in etc)
Generally it goes like this:
6:30-7:45 = Simple pressure, zealot, stalker, mothership, proxy pylon etc. stuff you want some lings/queens for.
~7:45 and onwards = warpgate pressure, +1 4-gate mass stalker/zealot attacks, proxy oracles, dt rush and stuff u want spores n roaches for. Later timings also include of warp prism in the main, 7gate attacks, stuff like that.
9:00+ = immortal allins, mass gate allins, stargate gateway allins, n other punchy builds.
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Germany767 Posts
On May 27 2013 11:24 partydude89 wrote:
hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast.
Hey Partydude!
They key to beat mech is to identify it as soon as possible, you want to play very differently vs mech than you do vs Bio. I advise you to watch your replays vs Mech and try to find a good time for when to send in an Overlord.
The early game is extremely important if the Terran player manages to do economic damage to you with hellion run byes or drops it's very difficult to come back so you have to perfect your defense vs that.
On your own judgement get either baneling nest or roach warren to defend vs hellbats. (whenever I see Hellbat drops I also like to add 1-2 queens to help defend the drops and get 1 spore at each base, then it comes down to pure micro)
Now if you're settled well and save vs harass and found out that you play against mech you want to boost your economy a lot, his first push won't be for a while so you can drone much harder than vs bio.
This is my main styles vs mech.
I get for some pretty fast mutas (but no more than around 10) to force him to make turrets, do some eco damage and delay his push as well as force out thors.
Then I transition into Shs while going up to have at the same time. Get as many Shs as you can and try to position them in an offensive position to buy time. The closer they are to the terran the more you can ''kite'' with them. Whenever his mech army cleans up a wave of locusts and advances on your position you unburrow, run away until you have a new wave ready to spawn, burrow again and repeat until you can't run anymore.
This should ideally buy you enough time to get Broodlords out to deal with his mech push.
In the meantime you should also increase your queen count to 8-10 to boost your Broodlord transition.
Creep spread is fundemental for the queens but also helps with the ''kiting'' of the Shs earlier on so try to cancer up that map as much as possible! (it's hard for mech to stop a strong creep spread early on so try to make use of that)
Now at last, you push out with your broodlord, SH queen army. Try not to lose your mutas if you can, they will help a lot with defending against tank/hellbat counter attacks. And spend your over-mins on static defense on your bases because drops are going to be incredibly annoying with your super slower Free unit spawning death army. (you never want to have to turn around with that super slo-mo army, so gotta secure your bases but don't overract if you lose a base as long as your army keeps marching forward and you can hold 1-2 bases you'll be fine)
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On May 28 2013 23:07 Liquid`TLO wrote:Show nested quote +On May 27 2013 11:24 partydude89 wrote:
hi, im a lowly diamond zerg, who has trouble with terrans who go mech and hit a timing right before hive. They have so many tanks that they can just siege a few and keep the rest unsieged. i can't seem to break them before-hand, and their push kills a roach hydra composition so fast. Hey Partydude! They key to beat mech is to identify it as soon as possible, you want to play very differently vs mech than you do vs Bio. I advise you to watch your replays vs Mech and try to find a good time for when to send in an Overlord. The early game is extremely important if the Terran player manages to do economic damage to you with hellion run byes or drops it's very difficult to come back so you have to perfect your defense vs that. On your own judgement get either baneling nest or roach warren to defend vs hellbats. (whenever I see Hellbat drops I also like to add 1-2 queens to help defend the drops and get 1 spore at each base, then it comes down to pure micro) Now if you're settled well and save vs harass and found out that you play against mech you want to boost your economy a lot, his first push won't be for a while so you can drone much harder than vs bio. This is my main styles vs mech. I get for some pretty fast mutas (but no more than around 10) to force him to make turrets, do some eco damage and delay his push as well as force out thors. Then I transition into Shs while going up to have at the same time. Get as many Shs as you can and try to position them in an offensive position to buy time. The closer they are to the terran the more you can ''kite'' with them. Whenever his mech army cleans up a wave of locusts and advances on your position you unburrow, run away until you have a new wave ready to spawn, burrow again and repeat until you can't run anymore. This should ideally buy you enough time to get Broodlords out to deal with his mech push. In the meantime you should also increase your queen count to 8-10 to boost your Broodlord transition. Creep spread is fundemental for the queens but also helps with the ''kiting'' of the Shs earlier on so try to cancer up that map as much as possible! (it's hard for mech to stop a strong creep spread early on so try to make use of that) Now at last, you push out with your broodlord, SH queen army. Try not to lose your mutas if you can, they will help a lot with defending against tank/hellbat counter attacks. And spend your over-mins on static defense on your bases because drops are going to be incredibly annoying with your super slower Free unit spawning death army. (you never want to have to turn around with that super slo-mo army, so gotta secure your bases but don't overract if you lose a base as long as your army keeps marching forward and you can hold 1-2 bases you'll be fine)
Awesome! Thanks!
What do you do against someone who mixes in ravens into his mech? I find that seeker missile really wreck my army.
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Norway839 Posts
On May 28 2013 21:51 Decendos wrote:
how to prepare in ZvT or ZvP on big maps like star station where you cant scout what they are doing?! got huge problems on the big maps with scouting. vs FFE you can scout gases which tells enough i think but vs gate first or T in general i feel pretty lost.
You'll have to play blindly and as safe as possible and develop your gamesense. Pay attention to his unit composition at different times and try to understand what he's doing.
Let's say you see 2 hellions and he's pushing your creep. However, you don't see any more hellions being added to the ball. This means he could be switching into Hellbats, maybe Widow Mines. If you see hellions being added to the ball constantly, however, you know that the threat of Hellbats and Widow Mines is pushed further away.
The more you lose to different attacks you'll learn what T/P can do and can't do at the different timings. Until then, you want to tailor general responses that can deal with everything.
Example:
Star Station, I scout a 1-gate expand into 3 gates in the front with my Zergling, but there's a zealot and a sentry walling off and I can't see anything else.
Response:
Drone up natural, make a bunch of lings around 6-minute mark (since it's good vs many variations of 1gate expand 3gate) and see if he's pushing out and with what composition.
Then, let's say I see a probe guarded by a sentry moving out with 4 zealots, I don't want to attack directly into this since I only made 16 lings this game (greedy!), so I back off. However, since I only saw zealots and just 1 sentry, I can expect gas to have been invested into TECH (Dark Templar or Stargate), so I decide to put down spores just because I don't know what can come.
This is just one example of how to think when working with limited information, hope it's useful.
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EPT
